siegi91 Posted December 3, 2018 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 12 Topic Count: 35 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,789 Content Per Day: 1.19 Reputation: 249 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/04/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted December 3, 2018 (edited) 16 hours ago, one.opinion said: It would be pretty dumb if me to suggest you debate with a book. You seem to be interested in the topic, so I’m offering a resource for you from someone more conversant on the topic than me. Even though they spent 3 years with Jesus, I suspect they still expected that Jesus would bring an end to Jewish oppression and establish a kingdom in earth. They didn’t understand the impact of Jesus’s life and teaching until after His death and resurrection. "It would be pretty dumb if me to suggest you debate with a book. You seem to be interested in the topic, so I’m offering a resource for you from someone more conversant on the topic than me." Ok, point taken. You look honest and I might consider reading that. I am just used to people not finding better rebuttals than spam me with youtube links and such. By the way, the name is not new to me, so I cannot exclude that I have already read that. I read so much that I am not sure anymore of what I already read and whatnot. But I usually give preference to authors who do not agree with me, so maybe I already read that. But if he is like WL Craig, then I do not expect much more than self referential proof based only in one book. Which is obvious, since there is no extra biblical evidence of any resurrection at all. "Even though they spent 3 years with Jesus, I suspect they still expected that Jesus would bring an end to Jewish oppression and establish a kingdom in earth. They didn’t understand the impact of Jesus’s life and teaching until after His death and resurrection." Jesus said very clearly that He will be betrayed, killed and, last but not least, that He will return on the third day. So, I am not sure where the source of their skepticism comes from. Assuming they were rational. I like to think that this is just the product of some author that favored emotions vs. logical consistency, but that is just me. Well, my explanation would pass the Hume test though siegi Edited December 3, 2018 by siegi91 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1sheep Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 19 minutes ago, siegi91 said: Yet, it does not say anything about a resurrection. So, my case stands. Apart from the Bible, there is no evidence of any resurrection. Persecution, imprisonment, death, maybe. But these are things that happen, especially in the Roman Empire, and do not require, unlike resurrections, special evidence. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Which, it seems, is to be found only in one book, with an agenda anyway. And sorry, I do not find indirect evidence convincing. Explosion of Christianity? Yes, but that was yesterday. Here in Germany Christianity is evaporating and Islam is exploding. Does that increase the plausibility of Allah? Hardly. In North Europe things are even worse. I would say the upper half of Europe will be totally de-christianized in a few generations. In Scandinavia, for instance, the Christian religion has the same exact status as things like Copyism (a new religion that consider copying files a sacred act). So, something for your missionaries (I promise we will not use arrows to keep them out). I mean it, I am not a fan of Islam, to put it mildly. And I am open minded. But open minded does not mean believing, or even considering, things whose only evidence is in a book that wants to advertise a certain creed anyway. That is, incidentally, the complain I receive when I show skepticism about things like astrology or homeopathy. Show me something more solid evidence, and I will be in. siegi The solid evidence is unreachable for you in your current state. You are blinded by the enemy. God allowed it because you really dont have an open mind or heart for that matter! You demand what all atheists demand. You want additional evidence. God put in you the knowledge of his creation. He gave all of his human being creations the same dose. Read Romans 1. You will never know the Truth until you really do have an open mind and open heart. You have a heart problem . All of humanity shares your plight. We all need to be saved and we want to walk in the best way we can but we need God to do so because none are righteous. No. Not even one! I hope one day you have the courage to just ask the Lord to teach you through his Living Word. I think you may be terrified that you are going to be wrong because then you will have to submit to a higher authority. Satan has you captive. He is whispering in your ear constantly. He wants you to keep doubting . The last thing satan wants is for you to know the truth and be reborn in Christ! That should terrify you! You dont know when your last breath is going to ensue. God answers those who come humbly. Jesus said knock and I will answer. Seek and you will find me. You ready to open the Living Word and let God examine your heart and show you things you currently cannot see? I pray you do. You cannot have access to God without trusting ie faith. The first step is for you to go straight to the source. Ask God to save you. Ask God to show you what you cannot see! Jesus Christ paid your sin penalty. Jesus Christ did rise and does sit at the right hand of the Father. He mediates between his reborn children and the Father. Romans 10:9-10. You ready to quit swimming upstream? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siegi91 Posted December 3, 2018 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 12 Topic Count: 35 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,789 Content Per Day: 1.19 Reputation: 249 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/04/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted December 3, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, 1sheep said: The solid evidence is unreachable for you in your current state. You are blinded by the enemy. God allowed it because you really dont have an open mind or heart for that matter! You demand what all atheists demand. You want additional evidence. God put in you the knowledge of his creation. He gave all of his human being creations the same dose. Read Romans 1. You will never know the Truth until you really do have an open mind and open heart. You have a heart problem . All of humanity shares your plight. We all need to be saved and we want to walk in the best way we can but we need God to do so because none are righteous. No. Not even one! I hope one day you have the courage to just ask the Lord to teach you through his Living Word. I think you may be terrified that you are going to be wrong because then you will have to submit to a higher authority. Satan has you captive. He is whispering in your ear constantly. He wants you to keep doubting . The last thing satan wants is for you to know the truth and be reborn in Christ! That should terrify you! You dont know when your last breath is going to ensue. God answers those who come humbly. Jesus said knock and I will answer. Seek and you will find me. You ready to open the Living Word and let God examine your heart and show you things you currently cannot see? I pray you do. You cannot have access to God without trusting ie faith. The first step is for you to go straight to the source. Ask God to save you. Ask God to show you what you cannot see! Jesus Christ paid your sin penalty. Jesus Christ did rise and does sit at the right hand of the Father. He mediates between his reborn children and the Father. Romans 10:9-10. You ready to quit swimming upstream? Well, of course I require evidence. Everybody would. You are making strong claims concerning the Universe, what we should believe (or else...), behave, etc. And sorry, your word and what is written in a book is not sufficient. Consider my position. I am a young atheist that works in the field of theoretical physics. As such, I meet a lot of people of different cultures and creeds. Atheists, recently also Christians (themselves with many different beliefs concerning evolution hell, death penalty, LBGT issues...), Hindus, Muslims, etc. So, who should I even consider if I do not have external evidence to confirm them? Throw some dice? Believe in the one with the hottest hell? What? siegi Edited December 3, 2018 by siegi91 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 5 minutes ago, siegi91 said: Well, of course I require evidence. The problem is that you want evidence that you know if out of our reach. It's what Atheists always do. They demand a type of evidence they know we cannot produce, then argue that no evidence exists, while ignoring the evidence we can offer. Quote Everybody would. You are making strong claims concerning the Universe, what we should believe (or else...), behave, etc. And sorry, your word and what is written in a book is not sufficient. But you cannot offer any rational refutations of what the book says. All you can do is reject what it says. You have never offered anything that comes close to an actual refutation of the material it contains or the claims it makes. Quote Consider my position. I am a young atheist that works in the field of theoretical physics. As such, I meet a lot of people of different cultures and creeds. Atheists, recently also Christians (themselves with many different beliefs concerning evolution hell, death penalty, LBGT issues...), Hindus, Muslims, etc. So, who should I even consider if I do not have external evidence to confirm them? Throw some dice? Believe in the one with the hottest hell? What? Funny, how you claim to be a scientist but cannot make an intelligent, rational refutation of what the Bible claims. If you had any knowledge, you would know that the claims made in Scripture are wholly different not at all the same as made by other religions. I am sure there are some cosmetic similarities, but the actually claims, when actually examined, do not resemble each other at all. But most Atheists attempt to just throw all religions in the same bucket as if they all make the same claims, that demonstrates a shallow understanding of the subject matter. Being skeptical about something that you cannot properly frame, is not rational or logical. You criticize a book you cannot properly quote or represent, so your skepticism is really based on misinformation and a lack of knowledge. Teh problem for you, as has been pointed out is that you are closed-minded to the matter and incapable of approaching it rationally. And while you attempt to paint skeptics as rational, your skepticism has been based on anything but rationalism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siegi91 Posted December 3, 2018 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 12 Topic Count: 35 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,789 Content Per Day: 1.19 Reputation: 249 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/04/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted December 3, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, shiloh357 said: The problem is that you want evidence that you know if out of our reach. It's what Atheists always do. They demand a type of evidence they know we cannot produce, then argue that no evidence exists, while ignoring the evidence we can offer. But you cannot offer any rational refutations of what the book says. All you can do is reject what it says. You have never offered anything that comes close to an actual refutation of the material it contains or the claims it makes. Funny, how you claim to be a scientist but cannot make an intelligent, rational refutation of what the Bible claims. If you had any knowledge, you would know that the claims made in Scripture are wholly different not at all the same as made by other religions. I am sure there are some cosmetic similarities, but the actually claims, when actually examined, do not resemble each other at all. But most Atheists attempt to just throw all religions in the same bucket as if they all make the same claims, that demonstrates a shallow understanding of the subject matter. Being skeptical about something that you cannot properly frame, is not rational or logical. You criticize a book you cannot properly quote or represent, so your skepticism is really based on misinformation and a lack of knowledge. Teh problem for you, as has been pointed out is that you are closed-minded to the matter and incapable of approaching it rationally. And while you attempt to paint skeptics as rational, your skepticism has been based on anything but rationalism. You say the claims of Christianity are unlike any of the claims done by any other religions. Cool, might be. What are your rational justifications that being different adds a iota to the plausibility of the claim? I see none. If I did see one, I would simply declare a new religion that is vastly different from all other religions (not difficult) and claim that it must be true, because of that. It is obvious. that it is a non sequitur. So, do you have better evidence than that? siegi Edited December 3, 2018 by siegi91 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 17 minutes ago, siegi91 said: You say the claims of Christianity are unlike any of the claims done by any other religions. Cool, might be. Anyone who takes the time to research the claims of Christianity vs. any other religion out there, knows that Christianity is entirely unique and cannot be equated with other religions. Quote What are your rational justifications that being different adds a iota to the plausibility of the claim? I see none. That's because I didn't make the argument that being different adds plausibility. Quote If I did see one, I would simply declare a new religion that is vastly different from all other religions (not difficult) and claim that it must be true, because of that. It is obvious. that it is a non sequitur. Again, you are incapable of framing what I said properly and are trying to respond to arguments I didn't raise. Maybe you should actually address what I said instead of trying to respond to things I didn't say. Quote So, do you have better evidence than that? Better than what? I haven't offered you any evidence up to this point. And frankly, I am not yet convinced that you would be honest or fair minded about any evidence that was offered given that you cannot seem to correctly represent my words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siegi91 Posted December 3, 2018 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 12 Topic Count: 35 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,789 Content Per Day: 1.19 Reputation: 249 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/04/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted December 3, 2018 22 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: Anyone who takes the time to research the claims of Christianity vs. any other religion out there, knows that Christianity is entirely unique and cannot be equated with other religions. That's because I didn't make the argument that being different adds plausibility. Again, you are incapable of framing what I said properly and are trying to respond to arguments I didn't raise. Maybe you should actually address what I said instead of trying to respond to things I didn't say. Better than what? I haven't offered you any evidence up to this point. And frankly, I am not yet convinced that you would be honest or fair minded about any evidence that was offered given that you cannot seem to correctly represent my words. Fair enough. Christianity is unlikely anything else. It is absolutely unique and cannot be equated to any other religion. And? siegi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 20 minutes ago, siegi91 said: Fair enough. Christianity is unlikely anything else. It is absolutely unique and cannot be equated to any other religion. And? siegi Do you disagree with that assessment? If so, on what grounds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siegi91 Posted December 3, 2018 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 12 Topic Count: 35 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,789 Content Per Day: 1.19 Reputation: 249 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/04/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted December 3, 2018 Just now, shiloh357 said: Do you disagree with that assessment? If so, on what grounds? I don't disagree. I am ready to bite the bullet and admit that Christianity is so much different and unique from all other religions. And? siegi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 1 minute ago, siegi91 said: I don't disagree. I am ready to bite the bullet and admit that Christianity is so much different and unique from all other religions. And? siegi And what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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