Creation

[The Barbarian]

Why else would He make nature?    It's the way He does most things in this world.

1 hour ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

Wrong.  .

No, I'm right about that.   Most things in this world, God does by using nature.

1 hour ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

God breathed life into man which is different than any other of His Creations.

That's one exceptions.   That's why I said "most."

Behe is not unique of course, other IDers also accept the fact of evolution.

1 hour ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

God is unique

Behe is not God.

An "intelligent designer" is entirely incompatible with YE creationism.

1 hour ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

I am an OEC so you'll have to have someone else argue with you about this.  

There are some forms of OEC that are not inconsistent with scripture or the facts.

1 hour ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

The inanimate cannot create the animate. 

Only God creates.   But He says the earth brought forth living things, so there we are.

That's what you're left with.

 

[RV_Wizard]

On 10/6/2021 at 10:11 PM, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

I am an OEC so you'll have to have someone else argue with you about this.  I see YE creationists equivalent to the Flat Earthers.

That shows how little you understand about young earth creationists.  I was raised to believe in an old earth, but after never finding a single verse in the bible to corroborate it, I had to dismiss it as fantasy.  The death nail for OEC is found in Exodus 20:11 where the finger of God carves into stone the fact that in six days the Lord created the heavens, the earth, and the sea and all that is is them.  This is the only part of the Bible written specifically by God and not inspired by Him.  If you believe in the 10 Commandments you cannot possibly believe in an old earth.

As we read in Genesis, all things were created in their mature state; from a planet capable of supporting life, to trees bearing fruit, to Adam and Eve as mature adults.  Their is no birth or death recorded until the fall of man and the introduction of sin and death into the world.  Without millions of years of birth and death, there is no evolution.  

Some people who study science propose theories of how our present environment could have come about by natural forces.  While none of these theories are without problems, at best "could have" doesn't mean "did."  Science is the study of the natural world and cannot validate or invalidate any supernatural occurrence.  There is no reason to doubt that the Bible is accurate as written.  Jesus believed it is accurate, and He was there from the beginning.

[RV_Wizard]

On 10/6/2021 at 11:31 PM, The Barbarian said:

Only God creates.   But He says the earth brought forth living things, so there we are.

It subsequently says that the evening and the morning were the third day.  If you want to concede that the earth evolved living things in the span of a day I can agree with that.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

That shows how little you understand about young earth creationists.  I was raised to believe in an old earth, but after never finding a single verse in the bible to corroborate it, I had to dismiss it as fantasy.  The death nail for OEC is found in Exodus 20:11 where the finger of God carves into stone the fact that in six days the Lord created the heavens, the earth, and the sea and all that is is them.  This is the only part of the Bible written specifically by God and not inspired by Him.  If you believe in the 10 Commandments you cannot possibly believe in an old earth.

I was raised as a YEC which led me to become an agnostic.  It wasn't until 10 years later after a spiritual experience when I became a OEC.

Explanation of Exodus 20:11: Old Earth Creation

6 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

As we read in Genesis, all things were created in their mature state; from a planet capable of supporting life, to trees bearing fruit, to Adam and Eve as mature adults.  Their is no birth or death recorded until the fall of man and the introduction of sin and death into the world.  Without millions of years of birth and death, there is no evolution.

I am not an evolutionist.

6 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Some people who study science propose theories of how our present environment could have come about by natural forces.  While none of these theories are without problems, at best "could have" doesn't mean "did."  Science is the study of the natural world and cannot validate or invalidate any supernatural occurrence.  There is no reason to doubt that the Bible is accurate as written.  Jesus believed it is accurate, and He was there from the beginning.

I am not an evolutionist and have no problem reconciling the Old Testament and Science.

[The Barbarian]

13 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

It subsequently says that the evening and the morning were the third day.  If you want to concede that the earth evolved living things in the span of a day I can agree with that.

Since the text tells us that they are not literal days, that's not a concern for anyone who takes the Bible as it is.

 

[enoob57]

1 hour ago, The Barbarian said:

Since the text tells us that they are not literal days, that's not a concern for anyone who takes the Bible as it is.

 

When this above is said I merely refer people to the truth:
Isaiah 28:10-14 (KJV)
[10] For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
[11] For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
[12] To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
[13] But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
[14] ¶ Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

This simple statement is substantiating the fact that God’s Word is verification for God’s Word… thus when we read here:

Exodus 20:8-11 (KJV)
[8] Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
[9] Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
[10] But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
[11] For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

by the comparative God has used here 6 literal days and sabbath to that of creation we can rest assured Genesis account is literal days… those who reject this do so awaiting the correction of God because of what this reality within His Word has established!

[RV_Wizard]

5 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Since the text tells us that they are not literal days, that's not a concern for anyone who takes the Bible as it is.

Every time evening and morning is used with a numbered day in the Bible it refers, without exception, to a single solar day.  Were the days a thousand years long, the nights would be as well and everything would have perished.  There is no Biblical justification for an old Earth.  The lineage of Adam to Noah, Noah to Abraham, and Abraham to Jesus serves to give us the date of the earth.  The earth is not old, mankind did not evolve.  The universe proclaims the glory of God.

[The Barbarian]

33 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

Every time evening and morning is used with a numbered day in the Bible it refers, without exception, to a single solar day. 

Problem is, that's not any sort of a rule, but supposing mornings and evenings without a sun to have them, violates a basic rule of Hebrew.   So that excuse won't work.

34 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

There is no Biblical justification for an old Earth.

There is no Biblical justification for protons or galaxies or red blood cells, either.   Lots of things that are true, are not in scripture.  So that excuse won't go, either.

35 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

The lineage of Adam to Noah, Noah to Abraham, and Abraham to Jesus serves to give us the date of the earth.

Problem is, the Bible has two, mutually contradictory family trees for Jesus.   If they were meant to be literal genealogies then the Bible would be self-contradictory.   Since it's the word of God, and God does not contradict Himself, these were not literal genealogies.

38 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

The earth is not old,

Evidence shows that it is.   And the Bible does not deny it.

38 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

mankind did not evolve

Only mankind's physical self evolved over time.   It is documented to continue to evolve.   But our souls are given directly by God, and did not evolve.

 

[RV_Wizard]

2 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

1. Problem is, that's not any sort of a rule, but supposing mornings and evenings without a sun to have them, violates a basic rule of Hebrew.   So that excuse won't work.

2. There is no Biblical justification for protons or galaxies or red blood cells, either.   Lots of things that are true, are not in scripture.  So that excuse won't go, either.

3. Problem is, the Bible has two, mutually contradictory family trees for Jesus.   If they were meant to be literal genealogies then the Bible would be self-contradictory.   Since it's the word of God, and God does not contradict Himself, these were not literal genealogies.

Evidence shows that it is.   And the Bible does not deny it.

Only mankind's physical self evolved over time.   It is documented to continue to evolve.   But our souls are given directly by God, and did not evolve.

 

1. There didn't need to be a sun.  There was a source of light.  That light was the only thing used to illuminate until day four, when the sun, moon and stars were spoken into existence.  Then light was no more.  It is entirely possible that the "Big Bang" came from the entity called "light."  Regardless, the claim that there was no sun so there were no days is spurious.  The rotation of the illuminated earth caused day and night, just as it does now.

2. None of those are precluded, either.  Long ages are specifically precluded.  The Bible hints at atoms and electrons, but it is not a science book.  Jesus knew the east and west never met long before Galileo did.

3. The Bible doesn't mention everyone who ever lived, only certain people.  These people had sons, daughters, brothers and sisters.  Genealogies can be recorded many different ways and still be accurate.  Personally, I'm not a scholar of the genealogies.  I'll defer to the ones who are.  I don't know the exact age of the earth.  I am confident that it is thousands of years old; not millions.  What matters is not the exact age of the rock we live on.  What matters is whether we accept or reject the creator.  The concept of billions of years of evolution is to attempt to replace God with simple natural processes that happened entirely on their own.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Evidence shows that it is.   And the Bible does not deny it. 

Well said.