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Those Days Will Be Shortened


Last Daze

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On 11/25/2018 at 12:26 PM, Last Daze said:
  • For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.  Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.  Matthew 24:21-22

This passage is speaking of the time when the man of sin wages war against the saints for forty-two months.  The forty-two months have been decreed and will not be shortened.  It is the time of great tribulation that is shortened.  If the unfettered persecution of the saints were allowed to continue for the full forty-two month duration, no flesh would be saved.  In order to understand how those days are cut short, we need to look at the word that's translated "for the sake of."

dia 
dee-ah' 

A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through (in very wide applications, local, causal or occasional).

The days of unfettered persecution, or great tribulation, are cut short through the elect.  Who are the elect?  And how do they cut short those days?  When Matthew 24:29 is compared with Revelation 6:12, we see that the great tribulation ends when the sixth seal is opened.  This is also the time when God's judgment / wrath begins.  God's judgment is brought about through the plagues which are attributed to the two witnesses.  We also see that after the sixth seal is opened that the 144,000 are sealed.  We don't know exactly what the 144,000 do but they just so happen to come on the scene at that time.

It's possible then that the great tribulation is brought to an end through the plagues.  People will be more concerned with their own welfare than they are with persecuting the saints.  And those who choose to reject the mark and the image might find refuge among the 144,000.  

Just something to consider because cutting short the great tribulation for the sake of those who were martyred as a result of it just doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

 

Although the New Testament is replete with references to a terribly troubled period in human history prior to the second advent of Jesus Christ, the interpretation of predicted events and times with regard to actual unfolding of history is a subject of documented foolishness bigotry and deliberate misinterpretation.

Germany

The National Socialist German Workers party made frequent allusions to their Leader as a Christ figure descending from the clouds to save the nation from financial ruin and international humiliation.   The population bought the propaganda resulting in a European war killing tens of millions of innocent people and the almost total destruction of European civilization.  Not all that is promoted as Biblical truth is true.  Mis-quoted scripture can condemn and kill as well as save.  Appeals to logic and the second commandment went unheard.

America

In the United States today appeals to the second commandment go unheard.  Hate and division reigns supreme (*) and love has been reduced to a mythical axiom.

In the mid-19th century, John Nelson Darby attempted to make sense of the historic debate regarding the thousand year reign of Christ - generally called the millennium.   His scribblings and public addresses were generally approved of by the American public mostly because the nation had been exhausted from Civil War issues and battles.  They needed and wanted escapist dogma.  A spiritual battle began at all levels which continues to this day.  The twentieth century began with a furious European war that resolved some of these issues.  Unfortunately, those who are unacquainted with history persist in accepting logically untenable arguments.  Ignorance is bliss when it comes to religious conviction.

Spurious details of the Tribulation are heatedly discussed often in denial of documentation to the contrary.  Ignorance is defended with fanatical disregard to scripture history or crimes against humanity.  In most cases, interpretations of the Biblical period of the Tribulation are inspired by anti-semitism.

THE HOLOCAUST

In the 1930's and 1940's German persecution of Jews degenerated into the establishment of slave labor and extermination camps - under government supervision and law.  Ethnic extermination of Jews was performed on an industrial scale never seen before or since in history - exactly as predicted by the Bible.   The caveat to this is that Americans who accept Darby's eschatology refuse to accept the horror and reality of the holocaust and cry for MORE JEWS BLOOD to be spilled.   Shall there be a repeat of the events of the holocaust?  Shall the world witness the brutal inhuman treatment of human beings whose only crime is being born Jewish?  I say NO, but many disregard those events entirely so as to embrace a hateful dogma of the End Times.

I submit the treatment of Jews as predicted in the Bible has already happened.  Those that happily look forward to a repeat episode are intellectually lazy and guilty of anti-semitic hatred of their fellow man.  Hoping for Jewish bloodshed to continue is not in the best interests of promoting the gospel.   Neither is it truth.  Neither does it have the approval or seal of the Kingdom of Heaven.

It might be a good idea for the reader to reexamine his or her beliefs on this matter.   Do you really want to see persecution of millions of Jews AGAIN?

I don't.   I pray God blesses Israel.  I pray God curses those who curse Israel.  (Genesis 12:3)

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) Historically speaking, empires have always begun their collapse with internal division disagreements and conflict among citizens - as well as a common belief that raiding the community coffers, for the benefit of those who did not contribute to it, was appropriate.

Edited by choir loft
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10 minutes ago, choir loft said:

Do you really want to see persecution of millions of Jews AGAIN? 

What we want to happen has exactly zero impact on what God has foretold will happen.

13 minutes ago, choir loft said:

It might be a good idea for the reader to reexamine his or her beliefs on this matter.

There is God's truth, and there is our perception of that truth.  May we be willing to allow the Holy Spirit to transform our perception to align with His truth.

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On 3/14/2019 at 8:48 AM, OldCoot said:

Last question first...

But aren't those who are Jews that trust in Yeshua now in the Body of Messiah where, spiritually, there is neither Jew nor Gentile?  Was not the Jew of Jews, Paul, in the Body of Messiah?    Of  course those who are Hebrew who have joined with Yeshua are in the Body of Messiah.  I never implied that those who have joined with Messiah are not.  But there are physical Hebrews that still have to fulfill Hosea 5:14 - Hosea 6:2 which is expounded on by Yeshua is Matthew 23:37-39.   The Hebrews who go thru the Tribulation period and make it to the other end will be the Virgins of Matthew 25.   So again, the virgins of Matthew 25 has nothing to do with the Ekklesia or "church".

Now to those fit for destruction, there will be some people on the earth that go physically into the Kingdom to repopulate the earth.  The ones fit for destruction are taken out.  That is what Matthew 24:39-41 is about.  Everyone is tested in the GT period and comes under judgment and anger, but not all are meant for destruction.  There will be some people left alive at the end.  Mathew 25 Virgins are those Hebrews that survive and go into the Kingdom, and is a discourse on Ezekiel 20:33-44.  Matthew 25 sheep and goat judgment is regarding the nations of the earth at the end of the GT period which is a discourse on Joel 3.  Everyone gets judged and separated, just not all in the same group.

Really is pretty simple if one just looks at what is written and doesn't try to torture the text to fit any agenda.  

Your intention is good, but your references to an interpretation of the Tribulation calling for a SECOND HOLOCAUST is unfounded.  I submit, dear brother, that a review of theology is in order.

I personally reject any interpretation of the End Times that includes MORE Jewish blood being shed on an industrial scale as demonstrated by Nazi Germany.   Do you really want to see that again?

I can't believe you do.....,

but I do suggest that on a wider scale much of American Protestant dogma is infected with the disease of anti-semitism as it has been passed down to us from John Nelson Darby.  Darby fashioned the framework for 21st century eschatology as it applies to the uneducated masses of evangelicals in America (rejected by churches in most other nations, by the way).  Darby, along with most Americans of his generation, was an ethnic extremist.   For instance, they all applauded governmental policy of Native American genocide. (*)  Was that a good thing?  Adolph Hitler thought so and admired the American example.  Native American bloodshed was popular.   What happened to the second commandment?  It was sacrificed on the altar of American nationalism and religious dogma.  Unfortunately we see it sprouting again today.  It's dejavue all over again.  Jews most definitely WILL NOT see a second holocaust.  Gentiles might, however.   Read on....

Hebrews who "go through" the Tribulation may not be genetically related to the 12 tribes of Israel.  

Remember St. Paul wrote in Romans 2:29 that "he is a Jew who is one inwardly".  Members of the post-modern church like to insist they have replaced Israel or have a greater blessing from God than Jews do.  It's all fake and hokum of course, but that doesn't stop them from buying into the lie.  They fondly point to their interpretation of another holocaust, even as they claim to have a spiritual link with Israel....even as they fail to realize they are caught up in it. (Romans 2:9-10 Romans 1:16)   

Gentiles and Jews are either united or they are not.  

Either gentile believers share the curses of worldly rejection of the Kingdom of God upon Jews - or they have no place in Christ.   You can't expect the blessings and deny the curses implicit with the world's hate of God.  You can't have it both ways.  In other words, gentiles may suffer a holocaust which Jews have already experienced.   Has no one considered such a sharing - or are blessings the only things gullible Christians are capable of understanding?  You must take the bitter with the sweet if you follow Christ in this world.  Jews do.   Gentiles think they're special and don't have to do so.

I'm making a generalized argument here - not anything close to prediction or even Biblical interpretation.   I am suggesting caution ought to be considered when assuming massive crimes against humanity ought to be part of the gospel message.  It isn't, you know.   The love of God saves us even as the hatred of the world persecutes us - Jew and gentile believers alike.

Make no mistake.  Those who truly follow Christ will suffer even as Jews suffer.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) "The only good Indian is a dead Indian." - United States Army general Phillip Sheridan

Edited by choir loft
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On 11/25/2018 at 10:26 AM, Last Daze said:
  • For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.  Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.  Matthew 24:21-22

This passage is speaking of the time when the man of sin wages war against the saints for forty-two months.  The forty-two months have been decreed and will not be shortened.  It is the time of great tribulation that is shortened.  If the unfettered persecution of the saints were allowed to continue for the full forty-two month duration, no flesh would be saved.  In order to understand how those days are cut short, we need to look at the word that's translated "for the sake of."

dia 
dee-ah' 

A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through (in very wide applications, local, causal or occasional).

The days of unfettered persecution, or great tribulation, are cut short through the elect.  Who are the elect?  And how do they cut short those days?  When Matthew 24:29 is compared with Revelation 6:12, we see that the great tribulation ends when the sixth seal is opened.  This is also the time when God's judgment / wrath begins.  God's judgment is brought about through the plagues which are attributed to the two witnesses.  We also see that after the sixth seal is opened that the 144,000 are sealed.  We don't know exactly what the 144,000 do but they just so happen to come on the scene at that time.

It's possible then that the great tribulation is brought to an end through the plagues.  People will be more concerned with their own welfare than they are with persecuting the saints.  And those who choose to reject the mark and the image might find refuge among the 144,000.  

Just something to consider because cutting short the great tribulation for the sake of those who were martyred as a result of it just doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

 

If you notice the series of events described by Yeshua in Matthew, it begins at Tribulation, then Ends at Tribulation, then the DAYS are SHORTENED for the ELECT's SAKE, then the sun darkens, the moon to blood, like lightning flashing from the East to the West representing Yeshua's return, then Yeshua sends His Angels to GATHER the ELECT!!

 

When you go step by step, it appears there is no Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, but Post-Trib, meaning we are going through the Tribulation!!

Edited by childoftheking
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9 hours ago, choir loft said:

Your intention is good, but your references to an interpretation of the Tribulation calling for a SECOND HOLOCAUST is unfounded.  I submit, dear brother, that a review of theology is in order.

You need to read Zech 13:8,9 - In the whole land, declares the Lord; two thirds will be struck down and perish; yet one third will be left in it.  This third I will bring into the fire; I will refine them like silver, and test them like gold.....

Read on:  Rev 12:13,14 - When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child...  The woman fled into the desert where she is taken care of for 42 months.

Read on: Matt 24:15 - When you see standing in the holy place the A/D spoken of by the prophet Daniel... Let those in Judea flee to the mountains. v.19 How dreadful it will be in those days.

So one can see that two thirds of the Jewish race (Hebrews) are wiped out.  Much greater than the holocaust.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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On 4/26/2019 at 5:56 PM, Montana Marv said:

You need to read Zech 13:8,9 - In the whole land, declares the Lord; two thirds will be struck down and perish; yet one third will be left in it.  This third I will bring into the fire; I will refine them like silver, and test them like gold.....

Read on:  Rev 12:13,14 - When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child...  The woman fled into the desert where she is taken care of for 42 months.

Read on: Matt 24:15 - When you see standing in the holy place the A/D spoken of by the prophet Daniel... Let those in Judea flee to the mountains. v.19 How dreadful it will be in those days.

So one can see that two thirds of the Jewish race (Hebrews) are wiped out.  Much greater than the holocaust.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Agreed: the coming holocaust will make the first seem insignificant.

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On 4/26/2019 at 11:04 AM, childoftheking said:

 

If you notice the series of events described by Yeshua in Matthew, it begins at Tribulation, then Ends at Tribulation, then the DAYS are SHORTENED for the ELECT's SAKE, then the sun darkens, the moon to blood, like lightning flashing from the East to the West representing Yeshua's return, then Yeshua sends His Angels to GATHER the ELECT!!

 

When you go step by step, it appears there is no Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, but Post-Trib, meaning we are going through the Tribulation!!

WRONG! That gathering is NOT Paul's gathering: it gathers from the wrong place, and comes 7 years after Paul's gathering.  Study to show yourself approved. 

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On 3/14/2019 at 7:48 AM, OldCoot said:

Last question first...

But aren't those who are Jews that trust in Yeshua now in the Body of Messiah where, spiritually, there is neither Jew nor Gentile?  Was not the Jew of Jews, Paul, in the Body of Messiah?    Of  course those who are Hebrew who have joined with Yeshua are in the Body of Messiah.  I never implied that those who have joined with Messiah are not.  But there are physical Hebrews that still have to fulfill Hosea 5:14 - Hosea 6:2 which is expounded on by Yeshua is Matthew 23:37-39.   The Hebrews who go thru the Tribulation period and make it to the other end will be the Virgins of Matthew 25.   So again, the virgins of Matthew 25 has nothing to do with the Ekklesia or "church".

Now to those fit for destruction, there will be some people on the earth that go physically into the Kingdom to repopulate the earth.  The ones fit for destruction are taken out.  That is what Matthew 24:39-41 is about.  Everyone is tested in the GT period and comes under judgment and anger, but not all are meant for destruction.  There will be some people left alive at the end.  Mathew 25 Virgins are those Hebrews that survive and go into the Kingdom, and is a discourse on Ezekiel 20:33-44.  Matthew 25 sheep and goat judgment is regarding the nations of the earth at the end of the GT period which is a discourse on Joel 3.  Everyone gets judged and separated, just not all in the same group.

Really is pretty simple if one just looks at what is written and doesn't try to torture the text to fit any agenda.  

Good post.

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On 11/25/2018 at 11:26 AM, Last Daze said:
  • ...

 When Matthew 24:29 is compared with Revelation 6:12, we see that the great tribulation ends when the sixth seal is opened.  This is also the time when God's judgment / wrath begins. ...

Daze, this theory is total and complete MYTH. It is classical prewrath theory that was wrong from the beginning.  This theory forces a rewrite and rearranging of most of Revelation. 

The TRUTH is, in Rev. 6, the seals are opened that are sealing a book. What is IN the book is what we read in Revelation after the 7th seal is opened. In other words, what is in the book is THE 70TH WEEK OF DANIEL.  We know from other scriptures that the abomination event will cause the daily sacrifices to cease and divide the week into two halves. That midpoint is found in chapter 11.  Chapter 13 explains what will CAUSE the days of great tribulation: an image and a mark. People will be forced to worship the image and take the mark or lose their head. A GREAT manhunt will be undertaken to find ANYONE who will refuse to worship or take the mark. Those will be the days of GT. We read that the beheaded BEGIN to show up in heaven in chapter 15. NOT chapter 6, but chapter 15. You are 9 chapters off in your theory! 

The TRUTH is, judgment begins at the 6th seal, as you say, and continues through the trumpet judgments in the first half of the week and through the vial judgments in the last half of the week. The days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of will come in the last half of the week, starting right after the abomination (chapter 11). 

Th TRUTH is, seals 1 through 5 are CHURCH AGE, not days of GT. Your theory is thousands of years off! Seal 1 is the church sent out with the gospel: 32 AD. Seals 2 through 4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. Seal 5 is the martyrs of the church age. Stephen was surely one of them.

The TRUTH is:  there is a HUGE difference between the church age and the days of GT.

Readers: beware of prewrath theory that must rearrange most of Revelation to fit.  Always remember this axiom on Revelation:

ANY  theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology to make it fit is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong. 

The days of GT in Revelation will start AFTER God gives His warning not to take the mark as seen in chapter 14.

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20 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

WRONG! That gathering is NOT Paul's gathering: it gathers from the wrong place, and comes 7 years after Paul's gathering.  Study to show yourself approved. 

 

That is all well and good, but Paul never did specify the Gathering of the Elect was before, during, or after Tribulation.

But the good thing is, YESHUA (BETTER KNOWN AS GOD AND MESSIAH) did specify these things in Matthew 24.  Mark and Luke reiterate them and so does the Book of Acts!!

Edited by childoftheking
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