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Those Days Will Be Shortened


Last Daze

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On 1/4/2019 at 3:35 AM, Diaste said:

Then when did all this happen?

"And he will confirm a covenant with many

for one week

 but in the middle of the week

he will put an end to sacrifice

and offering.

And on the wing of the temple

will come the abomination that causes desolation, 

until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him.”

All of the above must be fulfilled by the same person. Who did that and when did it occur? Antiochus IV make a covenant with many for one week? I cannot find that in the history. Means it's coming. Unless you can find the history that proves Antiochus IV fulfilled all 9 of the listed circumstances.

Poor translation of the Hebrew, but the answer is, Vespasian did and caused [the first two verbs are Hiphil] the confirmation of the covenant and the end to the sacrifice.

"And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation" is an utter corruption of the Hebrew. The Septuagint text is heavily corrupted, no serious scholar accepts it; no one even knows who wrote it or when it was written.

From some of my past posts:

9:27 וְהִגְבִּיר בְּרִית לָרַבִּים שָׁבוּעַ אֶחָד וַחֲצִי הַשָּׁבוּעַ יַשְׁבִּית זֶבַח וּמִנְחָה וְעַל כְּנַף שִׁקּוּצִים מְשֹׁמֵם וְעַד־כָּלָה וְנֶחֱרָצָה תִּתַּךְ עַל־שֹׁמֵֽם׃ פ

וְהִגְבִּיר and he will cause to confirm/prevail/make firm [Hiphil/causative Perfect with vav-consecutive prefix = future, 3ms] בְּרִית a covenant [no “the”/ה prefix] לָרַבִּים for many שָׁבוּעַ heptad/week אֶחָד one וַחֲצִי and the middle הַשָּׁבוּעַ of the week יַשְׁבִּית he will cause to cease [Hiphil Imperfect 3ms] זֶבַח blood-sacrifice וּמִנְחָה and oblation וְעַל and upon כְּנַף a wing/corner/extremity שִׁקּוּצִים disgusting things/abominations/idolatries מְשֹׁמֵם appalling/desolating/devastating [Polel/intensive participle: verbal adjective] וְעַד־ even until כָּלָה a complete end/consummation וְנֶחֱרָצָה even/which/that having been decreed/determined [Niphal participle] תִּתַּךְ shall be poured out/forth [Qal Imperfect] עַל upon שֹׁמֵֽם a desolating one/desolator [Qal active participle: verbal noun].

And he [the coming ruler] will cause to make firm a covenant for many one week; and mid-week he will cause to cease sacrifice and oblation/offering; and upon a wing/corner/extremity [of the Temple complex] devastating abominations/idolatries [shall occur]; even unto a complete consummation that has been decreed shall be poured out upon [the] desolator.

What was this decree, and who decrees it? Jesus:

Matt. 23:29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! ... 35 ...upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation. ... 38 Behold, your house [i.e. the Temple] is left to you desolate."

Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. ... 22 “For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written [only in Daniel 9:26-27] may be fulfilled."

Who was the coming ruler who was to cause -- that is, to establish the policy of the Roman military occupation of Judea  -- his people to destroy the city and the sanctuary, and to make a covenant with many Jews for one week/7 years? The only possible answer is Vespasian, who commanded precisely all of these things.

What was the covenant he caused to be established? Josephus tells us his policy:

Flavius Josephus, The Jewish War, Preface 8: “[Vespasian] took…some of its [Galilee’s] cities by treaties, and on terms.”  III:ii:4: “…the inhabitants of Sepphoris…the largest city of Galilee…received Vespasian, the Roman general, very kindly, and readily promised that they would assist him…”  III:ix:8: “Now the seniors of the people [of Tiberius]…fell down before Vespasian, to supplicate his favor… Vespasian…accepted of their rights hands by way of security…[and] the citizens opened to him their gates…”]

During the Jewish War of 66-73 AD, Vespasian established the policy of keeping covenant with those of the Jews who rejected the rebellion against Rome, and who would confirm the long-standing Pax Romana in the Holy Land, whereby the Romans were acknowledged to be in control of all civil government.

 

Going back to the Hebrew, we read "...And upon a wing/corner/extremity, appalling/desolating abominations [plural]..." Note first that these take place NOT in the sanctuary, but "upon a wing/corner/extremity עַל כְּנַף

כְּנַף is a noun, not a verb; this passage reasonably can describe the Romans sacrificing to their gods, including their aquilae/standards, upon the Antonia Fortress and/or in the Temple precincts on the northwest corner/wing/extremity of the Temple Mount. It DOES NOT FIT AT ALL with any abomination of desolation WITHIN the sanctuary.

 

 

 

Edited by WilliamL
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13 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Going back to the Hebrew, we read "...And upon a wing/corner/extremity, appalling/desolating abominations [plural]..." Note first that these take place NOT in the sanctuary, but "upon a wing/corner/extremity עַל כְּנַף

כְּנַף is a noun, not a verb; this passage reasonably can describe the Romans sacrificing to their gods, including their aquilae/standards, upon the Antonia Fortress and/or in the Temple precincts on the northwest corner/wing/extremity of the Temple Mount. It DOES NOT FIT AT ALL with any abomination of desolation WITHIN the sanctuary.

I'm going to check out Vespasian in more depth but so far I have not seen anything in Vespasian's acts that fits all the required conditions, and prophecy must be fulfilled exactly as written, not partially. I'll get to that and respond appropriately.

The above quote is fanciful in my opinion. The word for 'abominations' is šiq·qū·ṣîm, used 3 times and always for something disgusting or filthy. The Hebrew kə·nap̄ is translated as skirt 5 times in the OT and wing 6 times. So,  šiq·qū·ṣîm  kə·nap̄ is 'detestable thing wing', befitting the over all sense it would better read 'filthy covering' in a literal manner; after all we aren't thinking an abstract concept like abomination has literal wings, are we? Since the KJV translates kə·nap̄ as 'overspreading' there are no linguistic shenanigans afoot. 

The noun kə·nap̄ modifies the noun šiq·qū·ṣîm, which is literally 'detested thing' and not the Temple. Not the altar. Not Antonia. Relating the kə·nap̄ to 'corner' or ' building wing' is harvested from obscurity as the sense of the text in no way confers this identity.

It's the detested thing that has wings, not physical construction so...

"and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and by the covering of filthy, detestable things he shall make [it] desolate," - Dan 9-27

Meaning the Temple will be made desolate through a mantle, a film, a pall, of filth or disgusting things, in other words abominations. 

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On 11/25/2018 at 12:26 PM, Last Daze said:

This passage is speaking of the time when the man of sin wages war against the saints for forty-two months.  The forty-two months have been decreed and will not be shortened.  It is the time of great tribulation that is shortened.  If the unfettered persecution of the saints were allowed to continue for the full forty-two month duration, no flesh would be saved.  In order to understand how those days are cut short, we need to look at the word that's translated "for the sake of."

I would have to disagree,those days have been cut,to the time of the locust which is 6 months

Matthew 24:21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

This is not the tribulation of God for there are two tribulations, and this tribulation is the tribulation of the deception. This is the tribulation of the locust army, spoken of in the book of Joel. This locust army will so pervert the minds of all men on earth, that the truth of God word will be as a desolate wilderness. It is at this time that the Holy Spirit will speak through the elect, as recorded in Acts 2:6-8. Where when the faithful of Christ were together, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit of God. They left that room and entered the streets, and when they spoke to the multitude, "every man heard in his own language." This was Pentecost, and the Jews came from every part of the world, speaking all the languages of the world. This was not the turkey calling that is presented today, and it needed no interpreter.

As we read in the book of Joel, there will be a tribulation by this locust army that will come upon the whole earth, that will come from the north, and the destruction that comes upon them, you as one of God's elect have nothing to worry about. Why? Because at the coming of Christ, and the destruction of this locust army, you will be changed into your spiritual body, and it will have no affect upon you. Fear of this time is caused by ignorance, for if you know of God's love for His own, you would know that not a hair on your head will be hurt.

This is the tribulation then of the false Christ. This is the order now that Christ shall draw us back to Himself.

Matthew 24:22 "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

"Those days" are the days of this tribulation. If God did not shorten the time and reign of the Antichrist, no man in the flesh body would be spiritually saved, and not deceived by Satan the Antichrist. Daniel told us in Daniel 9:27 that this time of the Antichrist, the desolator, was one half of one week of years. That is one half of seven years, and it has been shortened to five [5] months.

Revelation 9:5; "And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man." God lets us know not only that it will be five months, but that it will be specific five months. It will be the five months of the locust. May through September.

Not claiming May through September,but it's a thought

 

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On 1/9/2019 at 3:31 AM, Diaste said:

The above quote is fanciful in my opinion. The word for 'abominations' is šiq·qū·ṣîm, used 3 times and always for something disgusting or filthy. The Hebrew kə·nap̄ is translated as skirt 5 times in the OT and wing 6 times. So,  šiq·qū·ṣîm  kə·nap̄ is 'detestable thing wing', befitting the over all sense it would better read 'filthy covering' in a literal manner; after all we aren't thinking an abstract concept like abomination has literal wings, are we? Since the KJV translates kə·nap̄ as 'overspreading' there are no linguistic shenanigans afoot. 

The noun kə·nap̄ modifies the noun šiq·qū·ṣîm, which is literally 'detested thing' and not the Temple. Not the altar. Not Antonia. Relating the kə·nap̄ to 'corner' or ' building wing' is harvested from obscurity as the sense of the text in no way confers this identity.

It's the detested thing that has wings, not physical construction so...

"and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and by the covering of filthy, detestable things he shall make [it] desolate," - Dan 9-27

Meaning the Temple will be made desolate through a mantle, a film, a pall, of filth or disgusting things, in other words abominations. 

On 1/4/2019 at 3:35 AM, Diaste said:

And on the wing of the temple

will come the abomination that causes desolation, 

You changed your interpretation. That is a start toward comprehending the difficulty of correctly translating the passage.

The preposition עַל  that comes before kanaph you translate as "by," which is simply not correct. It means over, upon, above. Kanaph is a noun, not a verb: therefore, translations that say it means "overspreading" [KJV] or "covering" [you], both words which are verb participles, are imposing meanings upon  kanaph that it does not carry.

Your last sentence is correct, except for the timing: the Temple was made desolate by devastating abominations/idolatries, committed both by the Romans and by the Jews under John the Zealot; who, for just one example, slaughtered Jewish worshipers in the inner Temple on the Passover in 70 AD, when he and his men retook the inner Temple from Eleazer, creating a bloody mess of corpses in the holy precinct. But there was never placed "the abomination of desolation in the Holy Place" by either Romans or Jews. Therefore, this prophecy has nothing to do with the End Time prophecies of Jesus and Daniel 12:11.

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17 hours ago, WilliamL said:

You changed your interpretation. That is a start toward comprehending the difficulty of correctly translating the passage.

It's not my thoughts. I just took those from the CSB, but it looks like you are convinced it's a physical construction.

 

On 1/8/2019 at 1:08 PM, WilliamL said:

Going back to the Hebrew, we read "...And upon a wing/corner/extremity, appalling/desolating abominations [plural]..." Note first that these take place NOT in the sanctuary, but "upon a wing/corner/extremity עַל כְּנַף

כְּנַף is a noun, not a verb; this passage reasonably can describe the Romans sacrificing to their gods, including their aquilae/standards, upon the Antonia Fortress and/or in the Temple precincts on the northwest corner/wing/extremity of the Temple Mount. It DOES NOT FIT AT ALL with any abomination of desolation WITHIN the sanctuary.

 

 

 

17 hours ago, WilliamL said:

The preposition עַל  that comes before kanaph you translate as "by," which is simply not correct. It means over, upon, above. Kanaph is a noun, not a verb: therefore, translations that say it means "overspreading" [KJV] or "covering" [you], both words which are verb participles, are imposing meanings upon  kanaph that it does not carry.

Actually overspreading is not inaccurate. If we said 'an overspreading' or 'the overspreading', it's a noun, just the way the KJV records. But I don't see it that way. It's a covering, a pall, and aura of detestable things and therefore the 'wing' is of abominations, not a physical construction.

17 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Your last sentence is correct, except for the timing: the Temple was made desolate by devastating abominations/idolatries, committed both by the Romans and by the Jews under John the Zealot; who, for just one example, slaughtered Jewish worshipers in the inner Temple on the Passover in 70 AD, when he and his men retook the inner Temple from Eleazer, creating a bloody mess of corpses in the holy precinct. But there was never placed "the abomination of desolation in the Holy Place" by either Romans or Jews. Therefore, this prophecy has nothing to do with the End Time prophecies of Jesus and Daniel 12:11.

While I do not disagree with the history, even though undoubtedly some would, I no longer hold to the idea the A of D is some idol or statue placed in the Temple as the utter fulfillment. Surely such a thing would be astonishing in and of itself but there's more to it. Blasphemy would create a morbid pall over the Temple. And who knows, there could be drugs, murder, sex, etc, all profaning the Temple. Not that I know that, just saying it's more than just an idol, if an idol has anything at all to do with it.

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On 1/11/2019 at 4:36 AM, Diaste said:
Quote

 Kanaph is a noun, not a verb: therefore, translations that say it means "overspreading" [KJV] or "covering" [you], both words which are verb participles, are imposing meanings upon  kanaph that it does not carry.

Actually overspreading is not inaccurate. If we said 'an overspreading' or 'the overspreading', it's a noun,

No, it is not a noun; overspreading is a verb participle used as a noun. But it is still a verb. Kanaph is not a verb participle. If you cannot understand the difference, then you can make up any translation out of anything. But you will have no credibility as a translator.

 

On 1/11/2019 at 4:36 AM, Diaste said:

I no longer hold to the idea the A of D is some idol or statue placed in the Temple as the utter fulfillment. ... Not that I know that, just saying it's more than just an idol, if an idol has anything at all to do with it.

2 Thes. 2:3 ... that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called a god or that is worshiped, so that he sits as a god in the naos/holy place of God, showing himself that he is a god.

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16 hours ago, WilliamL said:

No, it is not a noun; overspreading is a verb participle used as a noun. But it is still a verb. Kanaph is not a verb participle. If you cannot understand the difference, then you can make up any translation out of anything. But you will have no credibility as a translator.

I really don't want to be a translator. I only look up words for the main definition and usage and then I remain bound to context. Too much word study is fruitless endeavor, it just raises objections, as it does with you in just about every case, and the overall truth and concept becomes secondary.  

But I still do find myself going down that path, sadly.  I doesn't matter, William, if it's a verb or a noun, or a verb used as a noun, or if it's a verb used to butter toast. The idea behind the word is a covering spread over the Temple, a pall of detestable things. It's not some living sacrifice or idol out on an ell or wing of a construction.

Quote

 

2 Thes. 2:3 ... that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called a god or that is worshiped, so that he sits as a god in the naos/holy place of God, showing himself that he is a god.

Indeed.

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On 12/2/2018 at 10:40 PM, R. Hartono said:

If God shorten the great tribulation that will mean He will save the foolish virgins leftbehind. Its not like that,

God will save the wise virgins be4 the tribulation and the foolish virgins shall be left : Matt 24:40 "Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left.

So its the day be4 the rapture which shall be shortened.

Except the pattern was set in Matthew 24:39. The ones taken are those judged for destruction.

I might have missed it if someone else posted it, but the audience of Olivet discourse is laid out in Matthew 23:37-39

And the Virgins of Matthew 24 has nothing to do with the Ekklesia of Yeshua.   These are bridesmaids.  The Ekklesia (church) is the bride.   If the passage is regarding the church, then the church got a demotion from bride to bridesmaids.  Not hardly.

Also, might have missed, but I didn’t see one reference to....

Isaiah 45:4  For Jacob My servant's sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me.

Given the target audience in Matthew 23:37-39, throw in Isaiah 45:4, and toss in the Virgins of Matthew 25 an it would seem that the Hebrew people is what is in view.  Even the sheep and goat judgment of Matthew 25 is a discourse on Joel 3 where the nations are judged on how they treated the Hebrew people.

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3 hours ago, OldCoot said:

The ones taken are those judged for destruction.

Why would God need to take one to be judged for destruction if the all earth people is already set for destruction and tribulation ?

And the virgins of Matthew 24 has nothing to do with the Ekklesia of Yeshua.   These are bridesmaids.  The Ekklesia (church) is the bride.

Arent these two israeli christian Jews worthy to be called the Bride of Christ ?

Look at youtube with this words :

Two Israeli Jews explain the gospel in Jerusalem like you've never heard before!!!

 

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7 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Why would God need to take one to be judged for destruction if the all earth people is already set for destruction and tribulation ?

 

 

Arent these two israeli christian Jews worthy to be called the Bride of Christ ?

Look at youtube with this words :

Two Israeli Jews explain the gospel in Jerusalem like you've never heard before!!!

 

Last question first...

But aren't those who are Jews that trust in Yeshua now in the Body of Messiah where, spiritually, there is neither Jew nor Gentile?  Was not the Jew of Jews, Paul, in the Body of Messiah?    Of  course those who are Hebrew who have joined with Yeshua are in the Body of Messiah.  I never implied that those who have joined with Messiah are not.  But there are physical Hebrews that still have to fulfill Hosea 5:14 - Hosea 6:2 which is expounded on by Yeshua is Matthew 23:37-39.   The Hebrews who go thru the Tribulation period and make it to the other end will be the Virgins of Matthew 25.   So again, the virgins of Matthew 25 has nothing to do with the Ekklesia or "church".

Now to those fit for destruction, there will be some people on the earth that go physically into the Kingdom to repopulate the earth.  The ones fit for destruction are taken out.  That is what Matthew 24:39-41 is about.  Everyone is tested in the GT period and comes under judgment and anger, but not all are meant for destruction.  There will be some people left alive at the end.  Mathew 25 Virgins are those Hebrews that survive and go into the Kingdom, and is a discourse on Ezekiel 20:33-44.  Matthew 25 sheep and goat judgment is regarding the nations of the earth at the end of the GT period which is a discourse on Joel 3.  Everyone gets judged and separated, just not all in the same group.

Really is pretty simple if one just looks at what is written and doesn't try to torture the text to fit any agenda.  

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