Those Days Will Be Shortened

[iamlamad]

12 minutes ago, childoftheking said:

I did laugh, because I have researched when movements invaded the Body of Christ and compared those movements to the first few centuries who still had deep roots to the original church in Book of Acts.   And when those movements do not align, I just laugh, because God is all about proof and history.   The Bible has 4,000 years of history in it.   And when a fly by night idea creeps in, and we SEE NO ONE SPEAKING ABOUT FOR LITERALLY 5,800 YEARS, and then it just pops up from NOWHERE, it should never fly.

And anyone giving it wings to fly, is just as guilty, as the first liar who created it!!

You are simply mistaken, as usual. 

Irenaeus, in "Against Heresies" wrote:
"therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”"

Irenaeus then put the rapture before the trib - exactly as the bible shows us (for those that read with no preconceptions).

You have all this time ASSUMED that the gathering after the tribulation was Paul's rapture. You were mistaken when you began to believe this and you are still mistaken. Paul is clear: HIS gathering comes just before wrath, and as the TRIGGER for wrath - "wrath" being "the Day of the Lord," or as John wrote it, "the day of His wrath." 

Perhaps you should go back to Daniel 9 and study: the 70th week (still future) is for HIS PEOPLE, not the Gentile church of today.

[iamlamad]

31 minutes ago, childoftheking said:

I trust Robert Morris and his connections to the nations before YOU.   After this deception you are pushing, I trust NOTHING you claim concerning God, or his Coming!!

It is OK! Many will be left behind. You are choosing the same. All I can say is, don't try to hide until you are dying of thirst: just turn yourself in, lose your head, and then be among those seen in Rev. 15 and Rev. 20.  You do know there are two verses for that time that both declare you WILL BE overcome. 

You have a choice:

Luke 21:36 

³⁶ Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

You can escape, if you take off those pesky preconceived glasses and just read what is written with understanding. There is an escape plan from God Himself. You are not even looking for it. I think you WANT to be overcome and lose your head.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, childoftheking said:

That does not matter because there is ONLY ONE MORE COMING OF YESHUA, and we know from Yeshua and from Paul the CLOUDS pay an important role.   From SEEING Yeshua in the CLOUDS to meeting Him in the CLOUDS, it ALL describes the ONE COMING EVENT!!

The only question left, is when?

And Yeshua (GOD) specified that for us, when TRIBULATION ENDS!!

Common sense: in 1 Thes. Jesus comes and stops in a cloud: without much doubt, a GLORY cloud. He does not descend from there. The church is gathering to Him there.  Have you ever seen a plane disappear into a cloud? I have, many times. Jesus will NOT be visible. 

Yet, another verse tells us "every eye will see Him." Clearly, TWO comings. 

You can wait for His coming after the trib, but I can assure you, the main load is going out pretrib.

[Last Daze]

18 minutes ago, childoftheking said:

Yeshua could very well have known He was returning like He said, AFTER TRIBULATION ENDS.   That still does not put Him in a place that He knew when this Tribulation would take place, He just answered, "it begins and after it ends, I will return."

True.  Not knowing the day or hour is not the same as being clueless.

[childoftheking]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You are simply mistaken, as usual. 

Irenaeus, in "Against Heresies" wrote:
"therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”"

Irenaeus then put the rapture before the trib - exactly as the bible shows us (for those that read with no preconceptions).

You have all this time ASSUMED that the gathering after the tribulation was Paul's rapture. You were mistaken when you began to believe this and you are still mistaken. Paul is clear: HIS gathering comes just before wrath, and as the TRIGGER for wrath - "wrath" being "the Day of the Lord," or as John wrote it, "the day of His wrath." 

Perhaps you should go back to Daniel 9 and study: the 70th week (still future) is for HIS PEOPLE, not the Gentile church of today.

 

Good to see you found the few sites proposing Pre-Trib and who have skewed the writings of Irenaeus:

 

Here is the FACTUAL TRUTH!!

 

The Early Church Fathers on Post Tribulation Rapture

 

The Early Church

In this section I wish to show evidence of post-tribulationism in the early church. From what we can gather, they expected to see and be persecuted by the antichrist before the Lord came back, and they expected to go through the Tribulation. They also applied passages which speak of the Tribulation to the church while pre-tribulationists would say that these are for the Jews or for the “tribulational saints” who will be on earth during that time.

The Didache (possibly before A.D. 100)

The author of this work substituted “church” for “elect” where Jesus spoke of gathering together his elect after the Tribulation (Matt. 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27).

So let Thy Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into Thy kingdom [chapter 9].

Remember, Lord, Thy Church, to deliver it from all evil and to make it perfect in Thy love, and gather it from the four winds, sanctified for Thy kingdom which Thou hast prepared for it [chapter 10].[1]

Barnabas (A.D. 100)

The final stumbling-block approaches . . . [here the author begins to describe the beast, or antichrist]. We take earnest heed in these last days; for the whole [past] time of your faith will profit you nothing, unless now in this wicked time we also withstand coming sources of danger, as becometh the sons of God. That the Black One may find no means of entrance [The Epistle of Barnabas, chapter 4].[2]

Justin Martyr (A.D. 110-165)

The man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians . . . [Dialogue with Trypho, chapter 110][3]

Irenaeus (A.D. 120-202)

Tradition says that Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of John the apostle.

And they [the ten kings] shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord [Against Heresies 5.26.1].

But he [John] indicates the number of the name now [the mark of the Beast], that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is [Against Heresies 5.30.4].

For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign in the earth [Against Heresies 5.35.1].[4]

Tertullian (A.D. 145-220)

He equates Paul’s description of the rapture of the church in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 with Daniel’s description of the second coming.

For we shall, according to the apostle, be caught up into the clouds to meet the Lord [even the Son of man, who shall come in the clouds, according to Daniel] and so shall we ever be with the Lord [Against Marcion 3.25].

And that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God . . . Since, then, the Scriptures both indicate the stages of the last times, and concentrate the harvest of the Christian hope in the very end of the world [On the Resurrection of the flesh, chapter 25].

Now the privilege of this favor [to be clothed with immortality] awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh, and who shall, owing to the oppressions of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death, which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints; as he writes to the Thessalonians: [He goes on to quote 1 Thess. 4:15-17, On the Resurrection of the Flesh, chapter 41][5]

Hermas (A.D. 160)

Happy are ye who endure the great tribulation that is coming on, and happy they who shall not deny their own life [The Shepherd of Hermas, Vision 2:2].

Now some have seen a pre-tribulation rapture in the following passage:

Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly [Vision 4:2].

However, if we keep reading we see that the way of escape is by protection through the Tribulation:

For as gold is tested by fire, and thus becomes useful, so are you tested who dwell in it. Those, therefore, who continue steadfast, and are put through the fire, will be purified by means of it. For as gold casts away its dross, so also will ye cast away all sadness and straitness, and will be made pure so as to fit into the building of the tower. But the white part is the age that is to come, in which the elect of God will dwell, since those elected by God to eternal life will be spotless and pure. Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints. This then is the type of the great tribulation that is to come. If ye wish it, it will be nothing [Vision 4:3].[6]

However, this is not a doctrinal work but is the record of a vision which Hermas experienced. Here a woman is telling him these things which he is in turn recording. This entire book is riddled with very strange teachings.

Hippolytus (170-236)

Now, concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the Church from the adversary, John also speaks thus: “And I saw a great and wondrous sign in heaven . . .” That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days [the half of the week] during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church [Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, chapters 60-61].[7]

Cyprian (A.D. 200-258)

With the exhortation of His fore-seeing word, instructing, and teaching, and preparing, and strengthening the people of His Church for all endurance of things to come, He predicted and said that wars, and famines, and earthquakes, and pestilences would arise in each place . . . as the Lord Himself promises, saying, “But when ye see all these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is at hand” [Treatise 7.2].

The day of affliction has begun to hang over our heads, and the end of the world and the time of Antichrist to draw near, so that we must all stand prepared for the battle . . . A severer and a fiercer fight is now threatening [Epistle 55:1].[8]

Victorinus (third or fourth century)

Victorinus wrote the first known commentary on the book of Revelation. Notice how he expects the church to see these events in his comments on 7:2:

He speaks of Elias the prophet, who is the precursor of the times of Antichrist, for the restoration and establishment of the churches from the great and intolerable persecution [Commentary on the Apocalypse of John 7:2].[9]

Augustine (354-430)

But he who reads this passage[Daniel 12], even half asleep, cannot fail to see that the kingdom of Antichrist shall fiercely, though for a short time, assail the Church before the last judgment of God shall introduce the eternal reign of the saints [The City of God, Chapter 23].[10]

[childoftheking]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It is OK! Many will be left behind. You are choosing the same. All I can say is, don't try to hide until you are dying of thirst: just turn yourself in, lose your head, and then be among those seen in Rev. 15 and Rev. 20.  You do know there are two verses for that time that both declare you WILL BE overcome. 

You have a choice:

Luke 21:36 

³⁶ Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

You can escape, if you take off those pesky preconceived glasses and just read what is written with understanding. There is an escape plan from God Himself. You are not even looking for it. I think you WANT to be overcome and lose your head.

 

We all will be LEFT BEHIND!!

 

Glad to see in order to spread your lie you have used sites promoting your lie!!

 

The Early Church Fathers on Post Tribulation Rapture

 

The Early Church

In this section I wish to show evidence of post-tribulationism in the early church. From what we can gather, they expected to see and be persecuted by the antichrist before the Lord came back, and they expected to go through the Tribulation. They also applied passages which speak of the Tribulation to the church while pre-tribulationists would say that these are for the Jews or for the “tribulational saints” who will be on earth during that time.

The Didache (possibly before A.D. 100)

The author of this work substituted “church” for “elect” where Jesus spoke of gathering together his elect after the Tribulation (Matt. 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27).

So let Thy Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into Thy kingdom [chapter 9].

Remember, Lord, Thy Church, to deliver it from all evil and to make it perfect in Thy love, and gather it from the four winds, sanctified for Thy kingdom which Thou hast prepared for it [chapter 10].[1]

Barnabas (A.D. 100)

The final stumbling-block approaches . . . [here the author begins to describe the beast, or antichrist]. We take earnest heed in these last days; for the whole [past] time of your faith will profit you nothing, unless now in this wicked time we also withstand coming sources of danger, as becometh the sons of God. That the Black One may find no means of entrance [The Epistle of Barnabas, chapter 4].[2]

Justin Martyr (A.D. 110-165)

The man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians . . . [Dialogue with Trypho, chapter 110][3]

Irenaeus (A.D. 120-202)

Tradition says that Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of John the apostle.

And they [the ten kings] shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord [Against Heresies 5.26.1].

But he [John] indicates the number of the name now [the mark of the Beast], that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is [Against Heresies 5.30.4].

For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign in the earth [Against Heresies 5.35.1].[4]

Tertullian (A.D. 145-220)

He equates Paul’s description of the rapture of the church in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 with Daniel’s description of the second coming.

For we shall, according to the apostle, be caught up into the clouds to meet the Lord [even the Son of man, who shall come in the clouds, according to Daniel] and so shall we ever be with the Lord [Against Marcion 3.25].

And that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God . . . Since, then, the Scriptures both indicate the stages of the last times, and concentrate the harvest of the Christian hope in the very end of the world [On the Resurrection of the flesh, chapter 25].

Now the privilege of this favor [to be clothed with immortality] awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh, and who shall, owing to the oppressions of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death, which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints; as he writes to the Thessalonians: [He goes on to quote 1 Thess. 4:15-17, On the Resurrection of the Flesh, chapter 41][5]

Hermas (A.D. 160)

Happy are ye who endure the great tribulation that is coming on, and happy they who shall not deny their own life [The Shepherd of Hermas, Vision 2:2].

Now some have seen a pre-tribulation rapture in the following passage:

Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly [Vision 4:2].

However, if we keep reading we see that the way of escape is by protection through the Tribulation:

For as gold is tested by fire, and thus becomes useful, so are you tested who dwell in it. Those, therefore, who continue steadfast, and are put through the fire, will be purified by means of it. For as gold casts away its dross, so also will ye cast away all sadness and straitness, and will be made pure so as to fit into the building of the tower. But the white part is the age that is to come, in which the elect of God will dwell, since those elected by God to eternal life will be spotless and pure. Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints. This then is the type of the great tribulation that is to come. If ye wish it, it will be nothing [Vision 4:3].[6]

However, this is not a doctrinal work but is the record of a vision which Hermas experienced. Here a woman is telling him these things which he is in turn recording. This entire book is riddled with very strange teachings.

Hippolytus (170-236)

Now, concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the Church from the adversary, John also speaks thus: “And I saw a great and wondrous sign in heaven . . .” That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days [the half of the week] during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church [Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, chapters 60-61].[7]

Cyprian (A.D. 200-258)

With the exhortation of His fore-seeing word, instructing, and teaching, and preparing, and strengthening the people of His Church for all endurance of things to come, He predicted and said that wars, and famines, and earthquakes, and pestilences would arise in each place . . . as the Lord Himself promises, saying, “But when ye see all these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is at hand” [Treatise 7.2].

The day of affliction has begun to hang over our heads, and the end of the world and the time of Antichrist to draw near, so that we must all stand prepared for the battle . . . A severer and a fiercer fight is now threatening [Epistle 55:1].[8]

Victorinus (third or fourth century)

Victorinus wrote the first known commentary on the book of Revelation. Notice how he expects the church to see these events in his comments on 7:2:

He speaks of Elias the prophet, who is the precursor of the times of Antichrist, for the restoration and establishment of the churches from the great and intolerable persecution [Commentary on the Apocalypse of John 7:2].[9]

Augustine (354-430)

But he who reads this passage[Daniel 12], even half asleep, cannot fail to see that the kingdom of Antichrist shall fiercely, though for a short time, assail the Church before the last judgment of God shall introduce the eternal reign of the saints [The City of God, Chapter 23].[10]

[childoftheking]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Common sense: in 1 Thes. Jesus comes and stops in a cloud: without much doubt, a GLORY cloud. He does not descend from there. The church is gathering to Him there.  Have you ever seen a plane disappear into a cloud? I have, many times. Jesus will NOT be visible. 

Yet, another verse tells us "every eye will see Him." Clearly, TWO comings. 

You can wait for His coming after the trib, but I can assure you, the main load is going out pretrib.

 

If you had Common Sense, you would not be fooled like you are!!

[choir loft]

3 hours ago, childoftheking said:

 

 

I find it amazing that the WORD of God has been accessible for over 2,000 years in its completed format (complete as they had ALL of the Books before the Council selected 66)...and NONE OF THEM ever was DELUDED to believe in this Satanic Theory of Pre-Trib!!

 

The Apostles, the established Body of Christ, and a library of every Book related to scripture HAS NEVER revealed such a deception and outright lie.

And 150 years ago, a literal person considered to be a HERETIC wrote this false deception down.  You are believing the words of someone that actual God fearing/believing people knew was a HERETIC.   Enjoy your LIE and DECEPTION!!

If you are referring to John Nelson Darby, it might interest you to know the fellow;

- was never a theologian, though he presented himself as one

- was a consort of witches, though his relationship has never been well defined

- began his diatribe by attempting to resolve the 3 issues of the millenium debated for centures, but which were mostly resolved following WWI and the events of history

- was popular mostly among Protestant Americans and then only among marginal congregations (who today might be called the lunatic fringe)

- made significant personal connections with D.L. Moody, noted evangelist of the day, and Cyrus Scofield who, more than anyone, promoted Darby's ideology in his chain reference Bible.

- though the ideas of tribulation and rapture were floating around on the edges of legitimate theology for some time, it was Darby who organized the ideas into a more or less coherent structure

- primarily known as the Father of Dispensationalism, an anti-semitic ideology

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[childoftheking]

3 minutes ago, choir loft said:

If you are referring to John Nelson Darby, it might interest you to know the fellow;

- was never a theologian, though he presented himself as one

- was a consort of witches, though his relationship has never been well defined

- began his diatribe by attempting to resolve the 3 issues of the millenium debated for centures, but which were mostly resolved following WWI and the events of history

- was popular mostly among Protestant Americans and then only among marginal congregations (who today might be called the lunatic fringe)

- made significant personal connections with D.L. Moody, noted evangelist of the day, and Cyrus Scofield who, more than anyone, promoted Darby's ideology in his chain reference Bible.

- though the ideas of tribulation and rapture were floating around on the edges of legitimate theology for some time, it was Darby who organized the ideas into a more or less coherent structure

- primarily known as the Father of Dispensationalism, an anti-semitic ideology

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

 

Yes, there are many claims he was an actual Heretic!!

That list proves it.

Lies do not infiltrate the Church, until someone allows the Adversary to influence them!!

[choir loft]

2 hours ago, childoftheking said:

 

I do claim that scripture reveals this.   When Yeshua was speaking to His Disciples in Matthew 24, there was no Paul yet, who later would confirm it.   And if Paul claimed anything DIFFERENT from Matthew 24, Peter, the other Disciples, the Council led by the half brother of Yeshua, James would have scorned him.   So, even they knew Paul meant specifically what Yeshua meant of His returning AFTER the Tribulation ends:

 

But still, I claim scriptures of the Books Ezra had access to, provides deeper revelation.

 

That is way different than what the other poster is claiming, by saying, God told him personally of this lie!!

JESUS said the day and the hour of His return weren't known because of mathematical reasons, not spiritual ones and not ones favored by ignorant Protestants of the post-modern church.

At the heart of the issue is the Year of Jubilee, the calculation of which is unknown and unknowable.  THIS is why Jesus said the day and hour weren't known.

MOSES passed down the Law from God, which included a day of rest called shabbat - or sabbath in English.   Shabbat was to be observed from sundown on Friday until sundown on Saturday.  Shabbat was every 7th day.

MOSES also established the Law that every seventh year was to be a shabbat/sabbath year or sabbatical year.   Every seventh year in a week of years was to be a year of rest for the land.  The land was not to be cultivated during the sabbatical year.  Certain other requirements were to be observed as well.  Seven years was defined as a week of years, therefore the seventh year in the week of years was a sabbatical year.   Daniel refers to a week of years during his End Times predictions.  Everything is connected to the Year of Jubilee.

MOSES also established the Law that every seven sabbatical years was to be observed as the YEAR OF JUBILEE.   (7 x 7 + 1 = 50)

During the Year of Jubilee all debts were to be erased and all servants and slaves were to be set free.  Any real estate deals were to revert to the original owner.  In other words, God intended an entire reset of society was to take place every fifty years.

Unfortunately Moses died before the 50th year was to be observed.  Joshua, who assumed leadership, never insisted the Year of Jubilee be observed.  Over time the Hebrews lost track of the date for the beginning of the calendar calculation.  By the Babylonian capitivity, no trace of the origins of sabbatical year or Year of Jubilee remained.   By Jesus' time it was totally unknown.  

IT GETS BETTER.....

Calendar calculations about the End Times are generally made by ignorant Protestant Christians who forget that the Hebrew calendar is lunar, not solar.  The solar calendar we currently use wasn't adopted until the 16th century.   All ancient cultures used a lunar calendar.  For instance, Islamic calendars continue to be lunar.   Add to this the fact that Jewish calendars use BOTH lunar and solar dates and you may begin to appreciate the mathematical problem. (Ask any rabbi for a copy of the Jewish calendar he distributes to his congregation.  You'll see both lunar and solar dates on it.)

AND BETTER......

Not all Jewish holidays and ceremonies begin at sundown on Friday and end at sundown on Saturday.   Some begin at noon. 

THIS IS WHY...

Jesus' disciples asked Our Lord for the day and the hour, according to Jewish tradition and according to the Law of Moses.   Jesus knew what the people were talking about when they asked for day and hour of His second coming.  It's a matter of calculation, not hypothetical assumptions.

It's about mathematics and the Law and God isn't revealing the formula.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Edited May 8, 2019 by choir loft
punctuation & spelling