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8 hours ago, childoftheking said:

The Bible explicitly states that the dead in Christ will be resurrected. After this resurrection we are told that we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, what we refer to as the rapture. But when does the resurrection take place? The scripture clearly answers this question. At the last trumpet. In other words after the plagues. I have dealt with this topic in depth in other posts.

This in bold above is incorrect.  It is the Last Trumpet Call of God.  So how many Trumpet Calls are there?  When does ones soul go up into Heaven.  When one dies, their soul is called up into Heaven.  Not all trumpet blasts are "calls".  Drum roll please. or from God it is a Trumpet Call.

In Christ

Montana Marv

BTW, Robert Morris has very good Biblical understanding pertaining to Finances, and giving to God what He wants.  I like this.  Yet I like some of what Matthew Henry gives in his commentary, yet I do not believe everything he believes.  The same with Robert Morris, I believe in much of what he says, but his Rapture view I do not agree with.

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Your Canon was translated from the Latin, so instead of assuming you know what you are claiming, it's actually best to go to the SOURCE to which your Canon was TRANSLATED FROM:

 

 

31

et mittet angelos suos cum tuba et voce magna et congregabunt electos eius a quattuor ventis a summis caelorum usque ad terminos eorum

And he shall send his angels with a trumpet and a great voice: and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the farthest parts of the heavens to the utmost bounds of them. 

 

 

 

No Trumpet Call, just Trumpet!!

 

 

Edited by childoftheking
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3 hours ago, childoftheking said:

Your Canon was translated from the Latin, so instead of assuming you know what you are claiming, it's actually best to go to the SOURCE to which your Canon was TRANSLATED FROM:

 

 

31

et mittet angelos suos cum tuba et voce magna et congregabunt electos eius a quattuor ventis a summis caelorum usque ad terminos eorum

And he shall send his angels with a trumpet and a great voice: and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the farthest parts of the heavens to the utmost bounds of them. 

 

 

 

No Trumpet Call, just Trumpet!!

 

 

You have the Wrong verse.  This verse below contains Trumpet call of God

1 Thes. 4:13-18  - Some Brothers, I don't want ya-all to be ignorant......  v.16 - For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, 1. with a loud command, 2. with the voice of the archangel, and with 3. the Trumpet Call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first........ then those who are alive.....

This verse is about the Rapture.  Not the 2nd Coming.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

You have the Wrong verse.  This verse below contains Trumpet call of God

1 Thes. 4:13-18  - Some Brothers, I don't want ya-all to be ignorant......  v.16 - For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, 1. with a loud command, 2. with the voice of the archangel, and with 3. the Trumpet Call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first........ then those who are alive.....

This verse is about the Rapture.  Not the 2nd Coming.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

It's interesting how translations turn out sometimes.   Your Bible must be New King James or NIV, because the Latin still does not show what you claim:

 

16

quoniam ipse Dominus in iussu et in voce archangeli et in tuba Dei descendet de caelo et mortui qui in Christo sunt resurgent primi

For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment and with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God: and the dead who are in Christ shall rise first. 

 

 

1. loud command compared to the Latin's Commandment

2. Voice of Archangel is the exact same

3. The Latin calls it Trumpet of God, not Trumpet Call.

 

Interesting, 2 out of 3 are different:

 

If you find another verse with Trumpet call from your Bible, I would be interested in what the Latin (which was translated from the Greek)(before being translated into English) has to say...

Edited by childoftheking
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Even the Greek verifies the Latin:

 

There is one difference:  instead of loud command or commandment, the Greek calls it a SHOUT!!

And 2 Bible translations call it TRUMPET OF GOD, 1 TRUMP OF GOD: but nowhere except your translation is it TRUMPET CALL:

 

 

Greek Texts

ΠΡΟΣ ΘΕΣΣΑΛΟΝΙΚΕΙΣ Α΄ 4:16 Greek NT: Nestle 1904
ὅτι αὐτὸς ὁ Κύριος ἐν κελεύσματι, ἐν φωνῇ ἀρχαγγέλου καὶ ἐν σάλπιγγι Θεοῦ, καταβήσεται ἀπ’ οὐρανοῦ, καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐν Χριστῷ ἀναστήσονται πρῶτον,

ΠΡΟΣ ΘΕΣΣΑΛΟΝΙΚΕΙΣ Α΄ 4:16 Greek NT: Westcott and Hort 1881
ὅτι αὐτὸς ὁ κύριος ἐν κελεύσματι, ἐν φωνῇ ἀρχαγγέλου καὶ ἐν σάλπιγγι θεοῦ, καταβήσεται ἀπ' οὐρανοῦ, καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐν Χριστῷ ἀναστήσονται πρῶτον,

ΠΡΟΣ ΘΕΣΣΑΛΟΝΙΚΕΙΣ Α΄ 4:16 Greek NT: Westcott and Hort / [NA27 and UBS4 variants]
ὅτι αὐτὸς ὁ κύριος ἐν κελεύσματι, ἐν φωνῇ ἀρχαγγέλου καὶ ἐν σάλπιγγι θεοῦ, καταβήσεται ἀπ' οὐρανοῦ, καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐν Χριστῷ ἀναστήσονται πρῶτον,

ΠΡΟΣ ΘΕΣΣΑΛΟΝΙΚΕΙΣ Α΄ 4:16 Greek NT: RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005
Ὅτι αὐτὸς ὁ κύριος ἐν κελεύσματι, ἐν φωνῇ ἀρχαγγέλου, καὶ ἐν σάλπιγγι θεοῦ, καταβήσεται ἀπ’ οὐρανοῦ, καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐν χριστῷ ἀναστήσονται πρῶτον·

ΠΡΟΣ ΘΕΣΣΑΛΟΝΙΚΕΙΣ Α΄ 4:16 Greek NT: Greek Orthodox Church
ὅτι αὐτὸς ὁ Κύριος ἐν κελεύσματι, ἐν φωνῇ ἀρχαγγέλου καὶ ἐν σάλπιγγι Θεοῦ καταβήσεται ἀπ’ οὐρανοῦ, καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐν Χριστῷ ἀναστήσονται πρῶτον,

ΠΡΟΣ ΘΕΣΣΑΛΟΝΙΚΕΙΣ Α΄ 4:16 Greek NT: Tischendorf 8th Edition
ὅτι αὐτός ὁ κύριος ἐν κέλευμα ἐν φωνή ἀρχάγγελος καί ἐν σάλπιγξ θεός καταβαίνω ἀπό οὐρανός καί ὁ νεκρός ἐν Χριστός ἀνίστημι πρῶτον

ΠΡΟΣ ΘΕΣΣΑΛΟΝΙΚΕΙΣ Α΄ 4:16 Greek NT: Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
ὅτι αὐτὸς ὁ Κύριος ἐν κελεύσματι, ἐν φωνῇ ἀρχαγγέλου, καὶ ἐν σάλπιγγι Θεοῦ, καταβήσεται ἀπ’ οὐρανοῦ, καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐν Χριστῷ, ἀναστήσονται πρῶτον·

ΠΡΟΣ ΘΕΣΣΑΛΟΝΙΚΕΙΣ Α΄ 4:16 Greek NT: Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
ὅτι αὐτὸς ὁ κύριος ἐν κελεύσματι ἐν φωνῇ ἀρχαγγέλου καὶ ἐν σάλπιγγι θεοῦ καταβήσεται ἀπ' οὐρανοῦ καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐν Χριστῷ ἀναστήσονται πρῶτον

1 Thessalonians 4:16 Hebrew Bible
כי הוא האדון ירד מן השמים בתרועה בקול שר המלאכים ובשופר אלהים ואז יקומו ראשונה המתים במשיח׃

1 Thessalonians 4:16 Aramaic NT: Peshitta
ܡܛܠ ܕܗܘ ܡܪܢ ܒܦܘܩܕܢܐ ܘܒܩܠܐ ܕܪܝܫ ܡܠܐܟܐ ܘܒܩܪܢܐ ܕܐܠܗܐ ܢܚܬ ܡܢ ܫܡܝܐ ܘܡܝܬܐ ܕܒܡܫܝܚܐ ܢܩܘܡܘܢ ܠܘܩܕܡ ܀

Parallel Verses

New American Standard Bible 
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

King James Bible
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel's voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Edited by childoftheking
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10 hours ago, childoftheking said:

Everyone is mistaken because of your claim God spoke to you!!

No one is buying it all.   The same Holy Spirit in all of us, is also in you.   The problem however, is none of us feel the Holy Spirit quickening when you claim God spoke to you (except those who have been suckered and bought your lies).   And God always allows other believers to be confirmed concerning when He instructs someone.   God did not speak to you, and knowing how false of a doctrine Pre-Trib is, it's rather obvious who did speak to you.   And when I put forth that question to the Holy Spirit, I get my confirmation!!

Go preach to someone else, I have no time to entertain Satan!!

Who are you to say that God did NOT speak to me? You only imagine it could not be God because your theories don't agree with the Word, and what God said to me DOES agree with the Word. You imagine the 70th week was past, but the first words Jesus spoke to me, as I was reading Daniel 9:27: when my mind and eyes got to the word "midst" [think midpoint] suddenly God spoke and said: "you could find that exact midpoint clearly marked in the book of Revelation."  

You don't think so, but God does think so. Hmmm. I think I will take HIS WORD over yours. Anyone should be able to know the 70th week is found in Revelation, for John gave us the timing of the last half 5 different times and in three different ways! How much more proof would anyone need?

Don't say "no one.." it is YOU who is not buying it - and the reason is very clear to me. Anyway, WHO IN THE WORLD SAID WE GO BY FEELINGS! That is just silly! We go by the written word. 

The truth is, there is at least ONE (1) Commentator (Newell) that claims the woman is Israel and the Child is Christ and Herod tried to kill Him.  There may be more, but I quit looking. 

Always remember, preconceived glasses are stronger than anything and will almost always prevent one from learning.  You imagine you have the truth, and no one can teach you otherwise. You remind me of the famous quote by Socrates: "the ills of the whole world are caused by those who THINK THEY KNOW, when in fact, they don't. 

You THINK pretrib is a false theory - yet in your own theory you have to rewrite Rev. 19 to fit your theory!

You THINK Rev. 12:1-5 is not about Israel and Jesus and Herod. 

I could go on and on. 

One day soon Jesus is coming pretrib FOR His saints - and you will be left behind wondering.....I hope your theories work out for you!

I want to remind you again, since you WILL BE overcome, don't wait! Thirst can be an awesome motivator! Before you get thirsty, just turn yourself in and end your suffering. 

Edited by iamlamad
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10 hours ago, childoftheking said:

Your Canon was translated from the Latin, so instead of assuming you know what you are claiming, it's actually best to go to the SOURCE to which your Canon was TRANSLATED FROM:

31

et mittet angelos suos cum tuba et voce magna et congregabunt electos eius a quattuor ventis a summis caelorum usque ad terminos eorum

And he shall send his angels with a trumpet and a great voice: and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the farthest parts of the heavens to the utmost bounds of them. 

No Trumpet Call, just Trumpet!!

The New Testament of the KJV was translated from the Greek "received" text.   Most of the modern translations of the New Testament are from various Greek texts.  The Latin Vulgate text was translated from Hebrew [Old] and from Greek [New].  Therefore the Latin text of the New Testament  is just one more translation from Greek. 

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4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The New Testament of the KJV was translated from the Greek "received" text.   Most of the modern translations of the New Testament are from various Greek texts.  The Latin Vulgate text was translated from Hebrew [Old] and from Greek [New].  Therefore the Latin text of the New Testament  is just one more translation from Greek. 

 

 

 

I did say that the Latin translation was from the Greek.   

 

But you have the history incorrect on this like everything else we have discussed :(

 

 

The original Old Testament writings were in Hebrew and the New Testament in Greek. Jerome (5th century) translated the Bible into Latin, called the Vulgate, which has become the official Roman Catholic Bible.

 

Since the Bible was hand written in the centuries prior to the invention of the printing press, few copies were available. The Latin translation (Vulgate) was the most common. Reformers such as Luther and Tyndale translated portions of the Latin Bible into the common language of the people; Luther into German and Tyndale into English. Wycliffe translated the Bible into the English language in about 1400 AD. 

 

 

 

^Just like I have been claiming, the New Testament was in Greek (they did find an Aramaic copy in what is known as the Dead Sea Scrolls)...then from the Greek it was translated into Latin, and since EVERYONE KNEW LATIN, they translated that into their native languages (Luther translated into German, Tyndale/Wycliffe into English)...and so forth.

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5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Who are you to say that God did NOT speak to me? You only imagine it could not be God because your theories don't agree with the Word, and what God said to me DOES agree with the Word. You imagine the 70th week was past, but the first words Jesus spoke to me, as I was reading Daniel 9:27: when my mind and eyes got to the word "midst" [think midpoint] suddenly God spoke and said: "you could find that exact midpoint clearly marked in the book of Revelation."  

You don't think so, but God does think so. Hmmm. I think I will take HIS WORD over yours. Anyone should be able to know the 70th week is found in Revelation, for John gave us the timing of the last half 5 different times and in three different ways! How much more proof would anyone need?

Don't say "no one.." it is YOU who is not buying it - and the reason is very clear to me. Anyway, WHO IN THE WORLD SAID WE GO BY FEELINGS! That is just silly! We go by the written word. 

The truth is, there is at least ONE (1) Commentator (Newell) that claims the woman is Israel and the Child is Christ and Herod tried to kill Him.  There may be more, but I quit looking. 

Always remember, preconceived glasses are stronger than anything and will almost always prevent one from learning.  You imagine you have the truth, and no one can teach you otherwise. You remind me of the famous quote by Socrates: "the ills of the whole world are caused by those who THINK THEY KNOW, when in fact, they don't. 

You THINK pretrib is a false theory - yet in your own theory you have to rewrite Rev. 19 to fit your theory!

You THINK Rev. 12:1-5 is not about Israel and Jesus and Herod. 

I could go on and on. 

One day soon Jesus is coming pretrib FOR His saints - and you will be left behind wondering.....I hope your theories work out for you!

I want to remind you again, since you WILL BE overcome, don't wait! Thirst can be an awesome motivator! Before you get thirsty, just turn yourself in and end your suffering. 

 

The fact you don't know the actual process the Canon was translated (I have provided the correct order in the other post to you), the fact you have been caught taking a single verse that related to nothing concerning Tribulation and used it for your defense of Pre-Trib (AFTER trying to accuse me of doing what you have been doing all along), the fact Pre-Trib is not based upon scripture but footnotes, the fact this false idea is only 150 years old in a tradition at least 6,000 years old, the fact that Paul described Yeshua Matthew 24 scenario (CLOUDS) which Yeshua states specifically happens AFTER TRIBULATION ENDS, and there are others but I have enough of your lies already mentioned ^... I am certain and without a doubt positive God DID NOT SPEAK TO YOU!!

 

For one, God IS NOT  a liar, and you have been proven to be one.   That alone is as obvious as it gets that God would not be a part of LIES, which leads to a safe conclusion that God would not be a part of your LIES!!

Edited by childoftheking
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On 5/8/2019 at 6:53 PM, iamlamad said:

The real point is, what does the scriptures teach? I say they teach a pretrib rapture. Anyone who goes to Matthew 24 to find Paul's rapture is already lost in understanding scripture.  Tell me, what other scripture does posttrib have besides Matthew 24?

Rapture fans are not interested in what scripture teaches. 

My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. -  Jesus as quoted by John 17:15

Jesus said there would be NO rapture.  Which part of NOT is NOT being understood?  The part that contradicts accepted heresy of fantastical evacuation is deliberately misrepresented so as to promote doctrines of demons.  As we are now in the End Times, this sort of thing is to be expected.

American Protestants are only interested in persuading themselves they've got some special revelation above and beyond what Biblical context promises or suggests.(*)  Americans always believe they are exceptional in nearly every regard (The Nazis, Romans, Greeks and Napoleonic French believed the same thing too, btw.) Most of the current harvest of rubbish is based upon gentile Replacement Theology, which insinuated itself into groups of early believers who were mostly Jews.

The fact a heresy is old doesn't make it true.

It is anti-semitic at the root, self-aggrandizing in branch and obscenely egocentric to the point of philosophical humanism in its flower.  Most of the rest of it is a doctrine of cowards who seek escape from the world's troubles, not a courageous stand in the midst of them.

The ENTIRE Biblical context teaches the true student of scripture that God NEVER pulls His people out of trouble.  Instead He promises to be with us in the midst of difficulty and hardship.   He does this to teach us HIS faithfulness and to give us good courage.   The doctrine of the rapture encourages cowardice.  God HATES a coward.

Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil,for You are with me;Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me. - Psalm 23:4

Are the above words those of a coward or are they one of enduring challenge and courage in the midst of fearful trouble?

Nevertheless, despite the overwhelming evidence and teaching of the Bible, many will refuse to accept logical and scriptural evidence that the rapture is not supported by the Word of God.

Someone once said stupidity isn't a virtue.  Evidence that it is a virtue can be seen in most American churches.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) Doctrine of the rapture has been rejected by most churches in the rest of the world because;

- it is inconsistent with the context of scripture

- it is divisive

- it promotes cowardice, not faithful reliance upon the grace of God

- it is anti-semitic and exclusive in that it rejects Jews, Catholics and members of the Orthodox church - which means most of the bulk of Christendom.  In other words, unless you are a Protestant (American) you won't make the cut.

Edited by choir loft
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