choir loft Posted May 10, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,207 Content Per Day: 0.38 Reputation: 328 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/23/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/10/1947 Share Posted May 10, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, childoftheking said: The fact you don't know the actual process the Canon was translated (I have provided the correct order in the other post to you), the fact you have been caught taking a single verse that related to nothing concerning Tribulation and used it for your defense of Pre-Trib Scholars have been arguing about the origins and linguistic meanings of words since they were first committed to paper. Who are you to suppose you have all the right answers? What is the correct order? What does it have to do with proving false rapture doctrine? Nothing at all. Do you know? Or are you a Protestant American that believes only his copy of the Bible has the correct order? What other Christians believe about canon: The Catholic and Orthodox churches (meaning the bulk of Christians in the world) accept the Deuterocanonical books. They call it the second canon. These are books from the Septuagint, or Hebrew writings from the Greek period of their history. Generally the collection is called the Apocrypha. These books are not accepted by Protestants or Jews. The Protestant Bible contains the same books in the same order as the Catholic canon, except for the Apocrypha. The Jewish Tanakh contains the same canonical books as the Christian versions of the Old Covenant. The exception is that the books are arranged in a different order. The first five books, called the Pentateuch by Christians, are called the Torah or Law by Jews. The next group is called the Prophets and contains works of major and minor prophets, of which Daniel is NOT one. When Jesus referred to the Law and Prophets, these are the books He was talking about The third group of books in the Hebrew Bible is called The Writings. They contain books of history and poetry such as Kings, Chronicles, Psalms, Proverbs, Ruth and Daniel. Daniel is NOT considered to be a prophet because most of his writing was historic in nature. (Christians disagree, obviously.) None of this organization has anything to do with promoting American rapturism. The argument is simply ludicrous in the extreme and evidence of great ignorance regarding Biblical origins and organization. that's me, hollering from the choir loft.... Edited May 10, 2019 by choir loft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
childoftheking Posted May 10, 2019 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 6 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 842 Content Per Day: 0.46 Reputation: 111 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/24/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted May 10, 2019 1 hour ago, choir loft said: Rapture fans are not interested in what scripture teaches. My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. - Jesus as quoted by John 17:15 Jesus said there would be NO rapture. Which part of NOT is NOT being understood? The part that contradicts accepted heresy of fantastical evacuation is deliberately misrepresented so as to promote doctrines of demons. As we are now in the End Times, this sort of thing is to be expected. American Protestants are only interested in persuading themselves they've got some special revelation above and beyond what Biblical context promises or suggests.(*) Americans always believe they are exceptional in nearly every regard (The Nazis, Romans, Greeks and Napoleonic French believed the same thing too, btw.) Most of the current harvest of rubbish is based upon gentile Replacement Theology, which insinuated itself into groups of early believers who were mostly Jews. The fact a heresy is old doesn't make it true. It is anti-semitic at the root, self-aggrandizing in branch and obscenely egocentric to the point of philosophical humanism in its flower. Most of the rest of it is a doctrine of cowards who seek escape from the world's troubles, not a courageous stand in the midst of them. The ENTIRE Biblical context teaches the true student of scripture that God NEVER pulls His people out of trouble. Instead He promises to be with us in the midst of difficulty and hardship. He does this to teach us HIS faithfulness and to give us good courage. The doctrine of the rapture encourages cowardice. God HATES a coward. Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil,for You are with me;Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me. - Psalm 23:4 Are the above words those of a coward or are they one of enduring challenge and courage in the midst of fearful trouble? Nevertheless, despite the overwhelming evidence and teaching of the Bible, many will refuse to accept logical and scriptural evidence that the rapture is not supported by the Word of God. Someone once said stupidity isn't a virtue. Evidence that it is a virtue can be seen in most American churches. that's me, hollering from the choir loft... (*) Doctrine of the rapture has been rejected by most churches in the rest of the world because; - it is inconsistent with the context of scripture - it is divisive - it promotes cowardice, not faithful reliance upon the grace of God - it is anti-semitic and exclusive in that it rejects Jews, Catholics and members of the Orthodox church - which means most of the bulk of Christendom. In other words, unless you are a Protestant (American) you won't make the cut. AMEN!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
childoftheking Posted May 10, 2019 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 6 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 842 Content Per Day: 0.46 Reputation: 111 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/24/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted May 10, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, choir loft said: Scholars have been arguing about the origins and linguistic meanings of words since they were first committed to paper. Who are you to suppose you have all the right answers? What is the correct order? What does it have to do with proving false rapture doctrine? Nothing at all. Do you know? Or are you a Protestant American that believes only his copy of the Bible has the correct order? What other Christians believe about canon: The Catholic and Orthodox churches (meaning the bulk of Christians in the world) accept the Deuterocanonical books. They call it the second canon. These are books from the Septuagint, or Hebrew writings from the Greek period of their history. Generally the collection is called the Apocrypha. These books are not accepted by Protestants or Jews. The Protestant Bible contains the same books in the same order as the Catholic canon, except for the Apocrypha. The Jewish Tanakh contains the same canonical books as the Christian versions of the Old Covenant. The exception is that the books are arranged in a different order. The first five books, called the Pentateuch by Christians, are called the Torah or Law by Jews. The next group is called the Prophets and contains works of major and minor prophets, of which Daniel is NOT one. When Jesus referred to the Law and Prophets, these are the books He was talking about The third group of books in the Hebrew Bible is called The Writings. They contain books of history and poetry such as Kings, Chronicles, Psalms, Proverbs, Ruth and Daniel. Daniel is NOT considered to be a prophet because most of his writing was historic in nature. (Christians disagree, obviously.) None of this organization has anything to do with promoting American rapturism. The argument is simply ludicrous in the extreme and evidence of great ignorance regarding Biblical origins and organization. that's me, hollering from the choir loft.... Yep, even though we know the entire Bible (Old and New Testaments) were translated from the Hebrew/Aramaic and the Greek to Latin by Jerome in the 5th Century. And then roughly 800 years later was translated from the Latin to German and English. NONE OF THAT provides any substance to this Pre-Trib Rapture Lie!! Theologians were baffled when this idea came about, because it teaches TWO COMINGS of Yeshua (Pre-Trib and Post Trib). NOWHERE within the Hebrew/Aramaic, and NOWHERE within the Greek does it claim there will be TWO COMINGS of Yeshua. And even through translations, NOWHERE does it claim TWO COMINGS of Yeshua from the Latin, German, English, and eventual other languages. FOOTNOTES: You read a scripture in a 3rd LANGUAGE TRANSLATION, and then in ENGLISH, you jot down some ideas to propose what is possible and what is factual. A FOOTNOTE ((is not)) the WORD of GOD, it is the IDEA of the reader trying to understand the WORD of GOD. Here are some FOOTNOTES that AMERICANS considered and became tradition over FACT: (1) THERE ARE NOT 3 PERSONS, the word PERSON cannot be found anywhere attached to the description of GOD when the titles Father - Son - Holy Spirit are concerned: (2) ELOHIM must ALWAYS mean PLURAL, more than ONE: In Exodus, we find "I AM" (Yeshua in John 8) speaking to Moses in a Burning Bush. "I AM" specifically explains to Moses that HE IS the Elohim of Moses' Father, the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, the Elohim of Jacob!! ***Clearly "I AM" ((is not)) saying, I AM PLURAL GOD, He shows us this meaning of Elohim is in the singular context*** (3) Peter was the first POPE: Nothing has to be added because there is literally no substance to it. To think, Peter was Pope to a people who were the ones to capture him, torture him, and eventually crucify (upside down) him is as absurd as absurd can get!! ***an obvious clear and outright LIE created by the Catholics*** (4) Didache was the actual Apostles idealism: NOWHERE can we find in the Greek writings of the Apostles in any Canon words like the Eucharist, practices like FASTING 2 days per week but only can fast on days the Pharisees DO NOT fast, Sprinkling is accepted when ALL EXAMPLES were done in complete immersion, Speaking in Tongues had CEASED (When Paul specified when Tongues CEASE'S so does KNOWLEDGE because that which is PERFECT has come [and Yeshua had not returned for a Second Time])(and our KNOWLEDGE today is far beyond in all areas than what the WRITERS of the ORIGINAL WORD ever had experienced, especially Paul). ***the Didache clearly is a CREATED Catholic Lie, by the Catholics, since most of their practices align with the Didache*** (5) Pre-Trib Rapture: This idea is around 150 years old, in a Tradition that goes back to Adam, and cannot be found ANYWHERE in any TRANSLATION. It literally came from a man who was not Ordained but Self Promoted as a Biblical Scholar and Theologian. He simply jotted down a thought he was researching. After he died and his notes were confiscated, IGNORANT men swindled by his LIES, began spreading and teaching his ((FOOTNOTES)) as if they were SCRIPTURE and INSPIRED by the HOLY SPIRIT. Edited May 10, 2019 by childoftheking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeCanada Posted May 10, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,248 Content Per Day: 0.55 Reputation: 671 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/26/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted May 10, 2019 2 hours ago, choir loft said: The Jewish Tanakh contains the same canonical books as the Christian versions of the Old Covenant. The exception is that the books are arranged in a different order. The first five books, called the Pentateuch by Christians, are called the Torah or Law by Jews. The next group is called the Prophets and contains works of major and minor prophets, of which Daniel is NOT one. When Jesus referred to the Law and Prophets, these are the books He was talking about The third group of books in the Hebrew Bible is called The Writings. They contain books of history and poetry such as Kings, Chronicles, Psalms, Proverbs, Ruth and Daniel. Daniel is NOT considered to be a prophet because most of his writing was historic in nature. (Christians disagree, obviously.) Hi choir loft, Mathew 24:15: Therefore, when you see the Abomination of Desolation which was spoken of through DANIEL THE PROPHET Seems like Jesus considered Daniel to be a PROPHET. Good enough for me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choir loft Posted May 10, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,207 Content Per Day: 0.38 Reputation: 328 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/23/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/10/1947 Share Posted May 10, 2019 6 hours ago, JoeCanada said: Hi choir loft, Mathew 24:15: Therefore, when you see the Abomination of Desolation which was spoken of through DANIEL THE PROPHET Seems like Jesus considered Daniel to be a PROPHET. Good enough for me. From the point of view of organization of the books of the Tanakh, Daniel isn't included with prophetic books because most of what he wrote was history. This doesn't mean Daniel didn't make predictions. It means he was primarily a historian. However, since you said Jesus' reference about Daniel is good enough for you, I assume you also agree with the gospel quote of Jesus denying the rapture. That's me hollering from the choir loft.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeCanada Posted May 10, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,248 Content Per Day: 0.55 Reputation: 671 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/26/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted May 10, 2019 1 hour ago, choir loft said: From the point of view of organization of the books of the Tanakh, Daniel isn't included with prophetic books because most of what he wrote was history. This doesn't mean Daniel didn't make predictions. It means he was primarily a historian. However, since you said Jesus' reference about Daniel is good enough for you, I assume you also agree with the gospel quote of Jesus denying the rapture. That's me hollering from the choir loft.... I will strongly disagree with "Daniel was primarily a historian" Much of what Daniel wrote was prophecy given to him by the Holy Spirit. And much of what he prophesied is still future. Ok, so I'll bite.....show me the "gospel quote of Jesus denying the rapture" Holler away..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted May 11, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.09 Reputation: 688 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted May 11, 2019 16 hours ago, choir loft said: From the point of view of organization of the books of the Tanakh, Daniel isn't included with prophetic books because most of what he wrote was history. This doesn't mean Daniel didn't make predictions. It means he was primarily a historian. However, since you said Jesus' reference about Daniel is good enough for you, I assume you also agree with the gospel quote of Jesus denying the rapture. That's me hollering from the choir loft.... The truth is, Satan did not want the Hebrews of the day to read Daniel, for he told the time they should be looking for their Messiah. They ended up NOT putting Daniel in with the Prophets in their Tanakh. Therefore all future readers, IF they read Daniel at all, would not consider his words prophecy. And sure enough, the MISSED their Messiah. They could have known the very day to look for Him. How could Jesus deny the rapture? It was from a future time and God would wait and see if Israel as a nation would Accept Him as their Messiah after His resurrection. Always remember, Jesus gave up His all knowing attribute when He took on human flesh. During His ministry He only knew of the future what the Holy Spirit revealed to Him. MOST of His words were pointed to the Jews, not the church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted May 11, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.09 Reputation: 688 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted May 11, 2019 On 5/10/2019 at 8:08 AM, choir loft said: Rapture fans are not interested in what scripture teaches. My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. - Jesus as quoted by John 17:15 Jesus said there would be NO rapture. Which part of NOT is NOT being understood? The part that contradicts accepted heresy of fantastical evacuation is deliberately misrepresented so as to promote doctrines of demons. As we are now in the End Times, this sort of thing is to be expected. American Protestants are only interested in persuading themselves they've got some special revelation above and beyond what Biblical context promises or suggests.(*) Americans always believe they are exceptional in nearly every regard (The Nazis, Romans, Greeks and Napoleonic French believed the same thing too, btw.) Most of the current harvest of rubbish is based upon gentile Replacement Theology, which insinuated itself into groups of early believers who were mostly Jews. The fact a heresy is old doesn't make it true. It is anti-semitic at the root, self-aggrandizing in branch and obscenely egocentric to the point of philosophical humanism in its flower. Most of the rest of it is a doctrine of cowards who seek escape from the world's troubles, not a courageous stand in the midst of them. The ENTIRE Biblical context teaches the true student of scripture that God NEVER pulls His people out of trouble. Instead He promises to be with us in the midst of difficulty and hardship. He does this to teach us HIS faithfulness and to give us good courage. The doctrine of the rapture encourages cowardice. God HATES a coward. Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil,for You are with me;Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me. - Psalm 23:4 Are the above words those of a coward or are they one of enduring challenge and courage in the midst of fearful trouble? Nevertheless, despite the overwhelming evidence and teaching of the Bible, many will refuse to accept logical and scriptural evidence that the rapture is not supported by the Word of God. Someone once said stupidity isn't a virtue. Evidence that it is a virtue can be seen in most American churches. that's me, hollering from the choir loft... (*) Doctrine of the rapture has been rejected by most churches in the rest of the world because; - it is inconsistent with the context of scripture - it is divisive - it promotes cowardice, not faithful reliance upon the grace of God - it is anti-semitic and exclusive in that it rejects Jews, Catholics and members of the Orthodox church - which means most of the bulk of Christendom. In other words, unless you are a Protestant (American) you won't make the cut. My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one Do people suddenly disappear when they are born again (As God taking them out of the world?) No, of course not. That is the meaning of this verse: We become citizens of heaven the moment we are born again - but God leaves us here among wolves. This verse has NOTHING to do with the rapture of the Gentile church. You should know better! Doctrine of the rapture has been rejected by most churches in the rest of the world because; This is FALSE. I frequently ask Christians in other nations what they believe about the timing of the rapture. I have even asked them WHY they believe it will be pretrib: most of the time their answer is: "It is scripture." - it is inconsistent with the context of scripture it is inconsistent with how YOU read scripture. - it is divisive So is the doctrine of the trinity! it promotes cowardice, not faithful reliance upon the grace of God This is nonsense. Pretribbers have to continually put up with attacks from posttribbers! Our faith is in being caught up first. You have NO faith in Jesus coming FIRST. Holler away, but you are hollering error. Despite the overwhelming evidence and teaching of the Bible, many will refuse to accept logical and scriptural evidence that the rapture comes first, before the 70th week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
childoftheking Posted May 11, 2019 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 6 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 842 Content Per Day: 0.46 Reputation: 111 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/24/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted May 11, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, iamlamad said: Always remember, Jesus gave up His all knowing attribute when He took on human flesh. During His ministry He only knew of the future what the Holy Spirit revealed to Him. MOST of His words were pointed to the Jews, not the church. Colossians 1: 19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell; Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Yeshua had the COMPLETE GODHEAD (Father - Son -Holy Spirit) within Him!! Matthew 12: 28But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. ^Yeshua states He casts out devils by the Holy Spirit (which also dwells within Him) John 14: 10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. ^Yeshua claims the Father dwells within Him and is doing the things we see Yeshua doing!! We literally don't know that Yeshua gave anything up except His Heavenly Throne in order to be our Sacrificial Lamb. He still predicted events to come (like 70 A.D. Destruction, final Tribulation, He even told Peter how he would die, He knew He was being betrayed by Judas, He knew He was going to be killed on His way to Jerusalem, He knew Peter would deny Him, the list is endless (for someone who gave up [like you claim] being All Knowing). And just because He claimed no one but the Father knew when Tribulation would begin, does not specifically mean Yeshua was not aware when it would happen, it meant He wasn't going to give that specific away for future people to keep watch for. It's why He taught about "like a thief in the night," "twinkling of an eye," "be like the 5 wise virgins with their oil lamps full and wicks trimmed," "being a good husbandman over your vineyards," and on and on. For someone being in the condition you claim, He knew specifics about everything He spoke about!! Edited May 11, 2019 by childoftheking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
childoftheking Posted May 11, 2019 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 6 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 842 Content Per Day: 0.46 Reputation: 111 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/24/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted May 11, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, iamlamad said: My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one This verse is clearly about COMMON SENSE. Those with it can see the OBVIOUS Those without it CANNOT What is the OBVIOUS? They ARE NOT BEING TAKEN OUT OF THE WORLD...but God is protecting them from the evil one. in plain English: God IS NOT taking us out of the world during Tribulation, but God is protecting us from the Adversary and his goons during the Tribulation!! Edited May 11, 2019 by childoftheking 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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