Montana Marv Posted December 12, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,135 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted December 12, 2018 6 hours ago, wingnut- said: I agree with you of course, regarding God's foreknowledge. Since you acknowledge we are making decisions, I would take your answer to belief in free will as a yes. As for my second question, is there any scripture that implies or says that free will is taken away from an individual? Free will be taken or not given to a person. To fulfill Prophecy. The beast and false Prophet of Rev 13 and Rev 19:20. Special people for a special time. King Herod the Great, Some Roman Emperors like Nero, Jewish king Jeconiah (Jehoiachin). If evil was needed to fulfill Prophecy, that individual was specific for that role, an unjust vessel of dishonor. Unjust nations can even be used to punish others. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted December 12, 2018 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,150 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,441 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted December 12, 2018 2 hours ago, Butero said: I am only quoting myself because Hebrews13:8 wanted to know where I used scriptures. Right here, and nobody has been able to refute these points. It's not that it is irrefutable it's just not possible according to Titus 3:5 … salvation is not by works period. Should end all discussion but.... here you are anyway... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Behold Posted December 12, 2018 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 7 Topic Count: 87 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,795 Content Per Day: 1.34 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 3 Joined: 07/30/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted December 12, 2018 10 hours ago, Butero said: God gave these sheep to him. Who are these sheep? They are the elect. They are the ones that God knew before he created them in their Mother's womb and predestined to salvation. Only God knows who they are, we don't. You can think you are of the elect, but you may not be. You might fall away down the road, and that would mean you were not of the elect and not really one of Jesus' sheep. That is why we are told in 1 Peter 1:10 The heres, taught, regarding those who misrepresent "predestined elect" is always the same......Its the fact that they are teaching that God chooses some for heaven, and chooses others for hell. This is a lie. And this is, in fact, one of the ugliest theological lies the Devil has up and running. So, why is the teaching a lie? Well, first, the lie is based on a misunderstanding that leads to a misrepresentation of "predestined" and "foreknowledge", and so as they are both misrepresented, (heresy) and so.... once this is easily resolved, then the "predestined elect" heresy dissolves like a cloud in the heat of the sun. Simply... God knows the beginning from the end......so, the bible has a term for this, and its called "foreknowledge"......which is...that God has knowledge of all things, before they happen. So, this means that God knows before you are born, IF you are going to receive Christ, or not. And where the devil led heretic get this knowledge going as a heresy, is to teach that because God knows it, then He caused it.....and THAT, is the heresy, of "predestined elect"....its that God is being accused FALSELY of causing everything, because HE already KNOWS everything.. The truth is.....that God knows everything, but He does not cause everything....... especially regarding the FREEWILL of a human being. The reality is.....God, could not hold you accountable or judge you responsible, for rejecting Christ...IF HE CAUSED IT. !!! See it? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 1 hour ago, enoob57 said: It's not that it is irrefutable it's just not possible according to Titus 3:5 … salvation is not by works period. Should end all discussion but.... here you are anyway... I showed you scripture that states certain sins will keep you out of heaven, which should have ended the discussion, but it didn't. We all know we were saved by God's mercy. Titus 3:5 doesn't prove OSAS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 1 hour ago, Behold said: The heres, taught, regarding those who misrepresent "predestined elect" is always the same......Its the fact that they are teaching that God chooses some for heaven, and chooses others for hell. This is a lie. And this is, in fact, one of the ugliest theological lies the Devil has up and running. So, why is the teaching a lie? Well, first, the lie is based on a misunderstanding that leads to a misrepresentation of "predestined" and "foreknowledge", and so as they are both misrepresented, (heresy) and so.... once this is easily resolved, then the "predestined elect" heresy dissolves like a cloud in the heat of the sun. Simply... God knows the beginning from the end......so, the bible has a term for this, and its called "foreknowledge"......which is...that God has knowledge of all things, before they happen. So, this means that God knows before you are born, IF you are going to receive Christ, or not. And where the devil led heretic get this knowledge going as a heresy, is to teach that because God knows it, then He caused it.....and THAT, is the heresy, of "predestined elect"....its that God is being accused FALSELY of causing everything, because HE already KNOWS everything.. The truth is.....that God knows everything, but He does not cause everything....... especially regarding the FREEWILL of a human being. The reality is.....God, could not hold you accountable or judge you responsible, for rejecting Christ...IF HE CAUSED IT. !!! See it? The reason why this is more than foreknowledge is that God created the people, knowing what they would do. He made them thus. And yes, he can hold them accountable because even if the master potter made them that way, they are still bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted December 12, 2018 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,150 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,441 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted December 12, 2018 The greatest problem with those who do not believe in the finished work of Jesus and that is: It's not about law but relationship Quote Handbook of Bible Application copyright © 1992 by Neil Wilson. BIBLE READING: Heb 1:1-3 KEY BIBLE VERSE: Long ago God spoke many times and in many ways to our ancestors through the prophets. But now in these final days, he has spoken to us through his Son. God promised everything to the Son as an inheritance, and through the Son he made the universe and everything in it. (Heb 1:1-2) The Bible introduces us to Jesus Christ. The book of Hebrews describes in detail how Jesus Christ not only fulfills the promises and prophecies of the Old Testament, but Jesus Christ is better than everything in the Jewish system of thought. The Jews believed in the Old Testament, but most of them rejected Jesus as the long-awaited Messiah. The recipients of this letter seem to have been Jewish Christians. They were well-versed in Scripture, and they had professed faith in Christ. Whether through doubt, persecution, or false teaching, however, they may have been in danger of giving up their Christian faith and returning to Judaism. God used many approaches to send his messages to people in Old Testament times. He spoke to Isaiah in visions (Isa 6), to Jacob in a dream (Gen 28:10-22), and to Abraham and Moses personally (Gen 18; Ex 31:18). Jewish people familiar with these stories would not have found it hard to believe that God was still revealing his will, but it was astonishing for them to think that God had revealed himself by speaking through his Son, Jesus Christ. Jesus is the fulfillment and culmination of God's revelation through the centuries. When we know him, we have all we need to be saved from our sin and to have a perfect relationship with God. The incredible reality, even here in the darkness, is The Holiness of God... as God came in flesh and lived that holiness showing for all eternity that only God 'IS' the perfect holy God with no sin; It makes sense that satan would come against this with works of righteousness which man could do to maintain and keep salvation and pervert the book of James as to say such... But if one takes in all of the Bible and observes all that is written this may be said: From the eternity past God elected, according to foreknowledge [undefined] within His Word, an unleavened lump of His People and God then began creation; All that had beginning is under this begin- as strictly as 'it is written' Gen 1:1 for to go outside of this is Gnosticism: all knowledge outside of knowledge revealed in God's Word and it is a mere reliance of mysticism apart from mystery that God's Word points to in God Himself in His Word... simply stated a reliance on some other knowledge not found in God's Word! The summation of law no one could keep it perfectly due to the leaven that was in the lump of mankind being as sinner. This fulness of time Jesus came to testify only God Himself can produce salvation for those who were willing to forsake all leaven and follow after Him- who literally saw the need to come to the realization that in the place they had began and all they themselves were was unacceptable to God and His law for they had been rightfully judged as needful to be separated eternally from God in eternal torment of God's Holy Wrath... herein we look to the cross where God Himself in The Person of His Son carved out a path of redemption for all of Adams children who would receive the truth and be set free from law to 100% reliance on God Himself Who Promised eternal life to such... Thus the creation from begin to end is set for total and complete removal when God is finished with all His Word's fulfillment of intent... it is to the depth of reality that we may know that the Elect of God from before begin kept to after end with absolutely no memory of such ever fulfilling Knowledge passes away so the question is where does the foundation of works to keep salvation remain? 1 Cor 13:8-10 8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. KJV This is the ultimate fulfilling of what God promises seen in the wiping of tears just before the eternal state Rev 21:1-5 21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. KJV So basically the idea that we are kept by that which is destined not to be for all eternity is either for the unlearned or the perverters of truth... The new birth is sealed by The Holy Spirit John 6:27 Rom 4:11 Eph 1:13-14 Eph 4:30 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. KJV The simple question how long has God sealed us? 2 Tim 2:19 Rev 2:17 Rev 7:3 Rev 9:4 Nothing in Creation can remove from God's grasp John 10:27-29 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. KJV some how these perverters of truth remove the linage of sealing and unity in that sealing..... If one willful sin after new birth then no further salvation possible (this they really pervert because of the fact below) Heb 10:26-27 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. KJV saved and not saved and saved and not saved is not found anywhere in the Scripture so they become moot in the foundation of God's Word... The idea of election is becomes unstable based upon man! John says repentance is necessary to those who are born again 1 John 2:1 2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: KJV The book of James is saying if God is in a person they will have fruit as there is no such thing as a no fruit Christion for the minimal requirement is the fruit of God Himself in new birth and sealing of the Holy Spirit as seen by the thief on the cross... Don't let the one's who are claiming 'works are necessary to keep salvation' remove you from the finished work of Jesus... the Lord Lord people are in danger of trusting in themselves more than in The Lord Jesus... and their relationship was founded upon the world that passes away! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted December 12, 2018 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,150 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,441 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted December 12, 2018 33 minutes ago, Butero said: I showed you scripture that states certain sins will keep you out of heaven, which should have ended the discussion, but it didn't. We all know we were saved by God's mercy. Titus 3:5 doesn't prove OSAS! If God says not by works period and you say by works who do you think I should believe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Just now, enoob57 said: If God says not by works period and you say by works who do you think I should believe? If God says won't inherit and no forgiveness in this life or the next for a sin a Christian could commit, and you say otherwise, who should I believe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted December 12, 2018 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,150 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,441 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted December 12, 2018 28 minutes ago, Butero said: The reason why this is more than foreknowledge is that God created the people, knowing what they would do. He made them thus. And yes, he can hold them accountable because even if the master potter made them that way, they are still bad. Show me one verse in Scripture where God made man to sin! In fact show me one verse where God had anything whatsoever with sin other than to provide an escape from it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 4 minutes ago, enoob57 said: The greatest problem with those who do not believe in the finished work of Jesus and that is: It's not about law but relationship The incredible reality, even here in the darkness, is The Holiness of God... as God came in flesh and lived that holiness showing for all eternity that only God 'IS' the perfect holy God with no sin; It makes sense that satan would come against this with works of righteousness which man could do to maintain and keep salvation and pervert the book of James as to say such... But if one takes in all of the Bible and observes all that is written this may be said: From the eternity past God elected, according to foreknowledge [undefined] within His Word, an unleavened lump of His People and God then began creation; All that had beginning is under this begin- as strictly as 'it is written' Gen 1:1 for to go outside of this is Gnosticism: all knowledge outside of knowledge revealed in God's Word and it is a mere reliance of mysticism apart from mystery that God's Word points to in God Himself in His Word... simply stated a reliance on some other knowledge not found in God's Word! The summation of law no one could keep it perfectly due to the leaven that was in the lump of mankind being as sinner. This fulness of time Jesus came to testify only God Himself can produce salvation for those who were willing to forsake all leaven and follow after Him- who literally saw the need to come to the realization that in the place they had began and all they themselves were was unacceptable to God and His law for they had been rightfully judged as needful to be separated eternally from God in eternal torment of God's Holy Wrath... herein we look to the cross where God Himself in The Person of His Son carved out a path of redemption for all of Adams children who would receive the truth and be set free from law to 100% reliance on God Himself Who Promised eternal life to such... Thus the creation from begin to end is set for total and complete removal when God is finished with all His Word's fulfillment of intent... it is to the depth of reality that we may know that the Elect of God from before begin kept to after end with absolutely no memory of such ever fulfilling Knowledge passes away so the question is where does the foundation of works to keep salvation remain? 1 Cor 13:8-10 8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. KJV This is the ultimate fulfilling of what God promises seen in the wiping of tears just before the eternal state Rev 21:1-5 21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. KJV So basically the idea that we are kept by that which is destined not to be for all eternity is either for the unlearned or the perverters of truth... The new birth is sealed by The Holy Spirit John 6:27 Rom 4:11 Eph 1:13-14 Eph 4:30 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. KJV The simple question how long has God sealed us? 2 Tim 2:19 Rev 2:17 Rev 7:3 Rev 9:4 Nothing in Creation can remove from God's grasp John 10:27-29 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. KJV some how these perverters of truth remove the linage of sealing and unity in that sealing..... If one willful sin after new birth then no further salvation possible (this they really pervert because of the fact below) Heb 10:26-27 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. KJV saved and not saved and saved and not saved is not found anywhere in the Scripture so they become moot in the foundation of God's Word... The idea of election is becomes unstable based upon man! John says repentance is necessary to those who are born again 1 John 2:1 2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: KJV The book of James is saying if God is in a person they will have fruit as there is no such thing as a no fruit Christion for the minimal requirement is the fruit of God Himself in new birth and sealing of the Holy Spirit as seen by the thief on the cross... Don't let the one's who are claiming 'works are necessary to keep salvation' remove you from the finished work of Jesus... the Lord Lord people are in danger of trusting in themselves more than in The Lord Jesus... and their relationship was founded upon the world that passes away! We have brought up a lot more than James. The claim that unless we accept OSAS, we don't believe in the finished work of Jesus is a lie and spin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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