The Book of Genesis: Young and True?

[thomas t]

Dear Community,

in the other thread, a user explained why he had difficulty with understanding Gen 1-2 in a literal way, one of the arguments being that the beginning of Genesis is just a copy from other creation accounts predating Genesis.

A copy with some adjustments having been made by the one who wrote down what he heard God say?

And why shouldn't Genesis be true then - just because of its resemblance to older accounts? I too believe that the first part of Genesis might be young indeed, as this is what scientists keep telling (my link is in German language, I just wanted to provide one link to back up my assertion that this is what scientists keep telling us, at least here in Germany. I hope noone has problems with this. It's easier for me to read in German).

Look at great artist Vinzenz van Gogh, he also copied from others. However, he introduced some little changes with regard to abstraction... and years later he was declared a major pioneer of modernism. This is how arts work in my understanding.

God is the great artist, and he can't be afraid of using what has been created by him, already, including literature... to write down an exact account of events.

Regards,

Thomas

Edited December 8, 2018 by thomas t

[Jayne]

 

It's the old Epic of Gilgamesh comparison again.

Yes, this epic poem from Mesopotamia has a flood account.  Yes, it's vaguely similar to Moses' account.  It also has bizarre differences.  Here's what I don't understand with people who dismiss Moses' account because of this Mesopotamian account.

There are scores of aboriginal peoples across the globe who have creation and flood accounts that are quasi-similar in nature to what the Bible says.  And that's a GOOD thing, no?  Yes, it is.  Just google it.  It's not rocket science.

Here's my take:

• Creation happened.
• Adam/Eve sinned.
• Humanity turned bad.....r-e-a-l-l-y bad.
• An ark was built and God saved whom he chose to save.
• In the post-diluvian world, God said to scatter out but mankind built up.
• God confounded their speech and they did scatter abroad.
• Each people group retained the oral memories/teaching of Creation and beyond.  Just like we today retain oral histories..
• As time passed and as these people groups inserted their own pagan gods and pagan stories into the genuine creation/flood accounts, the accounts lost a lot of the truth, but retained the essence of what God did.  That's why there are many, many of these accounts from all sort of people groups around the world.
• Along comes Moses and God gives him the accurate account and he writes it down.

So WHAT if the Mesopotamians wrote a Gilgamesh/flood story before Moses wrote his account? 

Those who claim that someone else knowing of the flood account prior to Moses' writing it down invalidates Moses and Genesis 1 - 11, only wish to invalidate what they choose not to believe - that God created it all, in the manner that the Bible describes.

And if Genesis 1 - 11 is not true, what makes the rest of the Bible credible?  Nothing.  They can pick and choose.

 

 

[Uber Genius]

On December 8, 2018 at 5:53 AM, thomas t said:

A copy with some adjustments having been made by the one who wrote down what he heard God say

Hear is the problem:

1 - I don't beleive in the dictation theory of inspiration.

2 - I have said early and often that I beleive Moses was literate! Further he had exposure to the various Mesopotamian accounts and would refer to them, edit them, correct them based on divine revelation, etc.

3 - You seem to suggest here and other places that if we don't label the literary structure as "Literal." then we give up all the meaning in your list, which is absurd. No scholar makes that connection.

4 - We make pronouncements on textual literary structure not by consequences those pronouncement have on our theology but rather by the elements of the text. 

By following those rules I agree with a literal Adam and Eve, a literal Eden, a literal Fall that impacts all Adams offspring as seen in Roms. 3 and elsewhere. 

 

[Uber Genius]

Further, scholars suggest 17 points in common between the Genesis account and the Mesopotamian traditions, the “Atra-Hasis Epic,” the Ras Shamra version, the epic of “Gilgamesh” tablet XI, and the Sumerian “Eridu Genesis” version. The claim isn't "Hey other cultures wrote about the flood." This is the Old Josh McDowell claim also known as minimalism. 

 

The he claim is how do explain the larg number of similarities, not just in thems (I.E. There is a flood and a God and a rescuer), but how does one explains order and details and metaphoric copying ?

see http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2007/03/07/Genesis-and-Ancient-Near-Eastern-Stories-of-Creation-and-Flood-Part-IV.aspx

 

There are numerous laws in Leviticus that are copies from the code of hemorobi that predate the oldest date for the Pentateuch by over 300 years. Did God give these codes to an ancient Asyrian King the way he gave them to Moses? 

 

So I don't think this view that Moses interacted with other ideas rather than copying what God dictated, undermines the inspirational aspect of the text. GOd knew in advance what Moses would write. He chose Moses. He gave Moses revelation directly and indirectly.

 

i don't reject the the young Earth view based on my view of how Moses compiled the text. I reject it on other exegetical grounds. 

[Who me]

There are also significant differences. In how the gods relate to humans, in where value is placed etc

The claim that Moses copied from others could equaly be turned around as folk memories of a real event, interpreted by there current beliefs.

The Ark is an example as when tested by marine engineers it proved to be seaworthy, while the other option where all unseaworthy.

The killer argument for Christians is that Jesus supported a young earth/recent creation, the truth of Noah and the flood etc.

That or you believe in supported what he knew to be false as being true. A strange position to take for a sinless Son of God.

[enoob57]

On ‎12‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 8:59 AM, Jayne said:

 

It's the old Epic of Gilgamesh comparison again.

Yes, this epic poem from Mesopotamia has a flood account.  Yes, it's vaguely similar to Moses' account.  It also has bizarre differences.  Here's what I don't understand with people who dismiss Moses' account because of this Mesopotamian account.

There are scores of aboriginal peoples across the globe who have creation and flood accounts that are quasi-similar in nature to what the Bible says.  And that's a GOOD thing, no?  Yes, it is.  Just google it.  It's not rocket science.

Here's my take:

• Creation happened.
• Adam/Eve sinned.
• Humanity turned bad.....r-e-a-l-l-y bad.
• An ark was built and God saved whom he chose to save.
• In the post-diluvian world, God said to scatter out but mankind built up.
• God confounded their speech and they did scatter abroad.
• Each people group retained the oral memories/teaching of Creation and beyond.  Just like we today retain oral histories..
• As time passed and as these people groups inserted their own pagan gods and pagan stories into the genuine creation/flood accounts, the accounts lost a lot of the truth, but retained the essence of what God did.  That's why there are many, many of these accounts from all sort of people groups around the world.
• Along comes Moses and God gives him the accurate account and he writes it down.

So WHAT if the Mesopotamians wrote a Gilgamesh/flood story before Moses wrote his account? 

Those who claim that someone else knowing of the flood account prior to Moses' writing it down invalidates Moses and Genesis 1 - 11, only wish to invalidate what they choose not to believe - that God created it all, in the manner that the Bible describes.

And if Genesis 1 - 11 is not true, what makes the rest of the Bible credible?  Nothing.  They can pick and choose.

 

 

This rings with harmony of truth.... we know lies have existed after the sanctification aspect of Gen 2:1-3! We gave our hearts to the lies Gen 3 and now without the assistance of God, Himself, we are lost in them.... I believe as you that God's assistance unto all men was the Torah and the birth of Scripture... The Creator in flesh authenticated the Old Testament as His Own Word here

Matt 5:18

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
KJV

Realizing the ramifications of this statement by Jesus we can in fact know the entire Torah is truth and sustained by God unto The Son's fulfillment of and issuance into New Testament time...