Prophecy from 2Thes 2:3 happening now

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, n2thelight said:

What you saying makes no sense

He (Christ) is not coming until He comes,crazy!

No wonder you don't understand! You have a problem with your reading!

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Cletus said:

there are two places in the bible the strongs concordance lists the word apostasia as being used... in the entire NT.   lets take a looksie at the other usage of this word, shall we...

Act 21:21  And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

in this passage the word is rendered in english as forsake.  so it is just as i told you.  has zip to do with rapture.   has to do with falling away.  and defecting.  and departing from the faith.  abandoning a faith.  walking away.  but you know, I am just not seeing rapture in there.  in either scriptures. 

and if King James is a poor translation why doest thou use the strongs concordance?  Know ye not strongs concordance is of the KJV?  If its so poor and weak i am sure someone would be glad to take the concordance off your hands. 

if you are going to accuse me of parroting and not looking up things for myself one more time, i am going to be done with this.  you tell me i am libbing and yet you tell me to change Gods written words?  no Sir.  I will read God breathed scripture for what it says.  I will not change it to make it mean what I want.  you can do that all you want but leave me out of that.  I am not libbing, I am telling you the definition of apostasy... per strongs concordance.  per other well known and trusted reference materials.  there is no easy way to say this, but you sir, are wrong.  sorry if that upsets you.  but it is what it is.  there is no rapture in that scripture, unless of course you want to change Gods words because you think the KJV is a poor translation when it is in fact THE translation all other translations are judged by.  I have no interest in debating this with you further.  either you believe what the bible says or you dont. 

I hope you noticed, in Acts 21:21, Luke had to ADD the word "Moses" to show WHO was being departed from. Also notice, in 2 Thes. 2, Paul did not tell us who or what was being departed from - unless you consider the CONTEXT - which is His coming and the gathering. Will someone be departing from somewhere at His coming and the gathering of the Bride? You know it the answer is yes.  Please note how Paul started this passage:

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him  NIV

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, ESV

Now we implore you, brothers, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him, BLB

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, NASB

I hope you notice, the THEME of this entire passage is NOT the "day of the Lord," which will be a day of destruction where God will systematically destroy the planet and destroy the sinners out of it, no, the theme is the gathering. Therefore SOMEWHERE in the passage Paul must refer to said gathering. 

By the way, I did not accuse you of anything: I ASKED you. 

Why do I use Strong's? It is simple: most websites where we can study the Greek use Strong's.  I have only found one Place in Strong's were I disagree with him. Strong used the Greek and Hebrew, not the KJV! But MANY people put strong's numbers into a KJV translation.  In most scriptures, I think the KJV made a very good translation. But it was done by people and people can make mistakes.  If you notice, the KJV did not say what or who was falling away from what or who.  But so many wish to add meaning that Paul did not add, and insist this is a falling away FROM TRUTH. Paul gave NO HINT of that. 

"I will not change it to make it mean what I want."  This is exactly what you are doing! 

By the way, does the phrase "taken out of the way" seem to mean the same thing to you as a falling away? 

You have as of yet not answered why Paul wrote, "and now you know. You have not acknowledge that in 3b the man of sin IS revealed.  These are critical things to understanding this passage. Paul had a very good reason to write, "and now you know."  However, I think you still are missing his reason.  I don't think you understand why "is revealed" in 3b is important - but it is.  You cannot just study ONE word in a passage and hope to understand. You MUST consider the entire context.

You imagine Paul is meaning a falling away [from truth is added and not in the text). Let's suppose for a moment that was Paul's meaning. Now let's consider his entire passage. These people had heard Paul teach of the rapture. They then read his first letter to them, where he specially shows them that they will be taken out of the way BEFORE the "Day of the Lord." Then they heard or read that "the day of the Lord" had come and they were IN IT.   Because they were under severe persecution, they believed it. But it did not make sense to them for Paul had taught them they would be rapture BEFORE the Day. NO wonder they were upset! They wondered if they had MISSED the rapture. So they wrote to Paul and asked him.

Now we get to Paul's answer. He could have just said, "no, you are not in the Day - and the rapture has not come yet. But Paul didn't give them a simple answer. His argument was, (according to you) when you see a SIGNIFICANT falling away (from truth, supposedly) first, then later you will see the man of sin revealed.  Now, I want to ask you a question: how in the world were they to know when ENOUGH had fallen away to meet Paul's THE falling away?  We could ask the same question today: has ENOUGH fallen away to meet Paul's criteria? How would ANYONE know? 

Now, if Paul's argument was about the CATCHING away, would that rise up to a VERY SIGNIFICANT event that all would recognize? I think it would. I believe your biggest problem is, you equate the Day of the Lord with the rapture. Am I right? 

If so, you are very mistaken: in Paul's first letter he is very clear that the rapture comes first, THEN the Day of the Lord......or did you just miss that point?  

I am NOT saying that "apostasia" cannot mean apostasy - I AM saying that it CAN mean a departing - where a part of a group is removed spatially from the rest of the group.  I am sure you agree that Paul was WELL versed in Greek. He knew this was a compound word and surely knew what each word meant.  IN CONTEXT a departing makes more sense than a falling away from something.

This is not a question of believing what the bible says - it is a question of UNDERSTANDING the intent of the Author.  At this point in time, you don't understand.  However, when we get to heaven, let's just go and ask Paul: shall we?

Edited December 23, 2018 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, ForHisGlory37 said:

If these statistics really are true, my heart is heavy and very grieved.  It makes me want to sob for our nation!  O Lord have mercy on us!  There truly will be only a remnant.  I say that not with pride but with great sadness and mourning.  ?   ?

Have no fear: a great revival is coming. It will be greater than any revival of the past. And when it reaches its peak, Jesus will come and take us home. Our nation will last until then. After we are gone, I suspect the US will cease to exist as we have known it. 

[George]

40 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

No wonder you don't understand! You have a problem with your reading!

This is your only warning ... posts like this get people removed from threads.  Keep it on the subject and DO NOT make it personal. 

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, George said:

This is your only warning ... posts like this get people removed from threads.  Keep it on the subject and DO NOT make it personal. 

Is this true (your statement) even if my statement was true? Did you notice what he wrote?

"He (Christ) is not coming until He comes,crazy!"

Is this the way you read 2 Cor. 2? It is certainly not the way I read it. 

How could I respond without it being personal? Perhaps: "whoever reads the passage that way is not reading it correctly."

Ideas?

[George]

3 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

"He (Christ) is not coming until He comes,crazy!"

I didn't see that as it was not reported.  Sorry ... but honestly discuss this in love ... is my exhortation for all those involved.   

Pro_19:11  Good sense makes one slow to anger, and it is his glory to overlook an offense.

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, George said:

I didn't see that as it was not reported.  Sorry ... but honestly discuss this in love ... is my exhortation for all those involved.   

Pro_19:11  Good sense makes one slow to anger, and it is his glory to overlook an offense.

Thanks. I will try to do better! Merry Christmas!

[Retrobyter]

On 12/20/2018 at 7:40 PM, iamlamad said:

Make no mistake: while some fall away here, millions are coming to the Lord in Africa, China, etc. The true church is growing, not shrinking.

When we all get to heaven and can ask Paul, we will find out Paul did not mean  "a falling away" but rather a catching away as in a departure (from the earth).

Shalom, iamlamad.

I'm going back to the source of the idea that "falling away" could mean a "catching away" as in a "departure (from the earth)."

It's HERE that we need to get a better understanding of the Greek word translated as "falling away":

646 apostasia (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah). Feminine of the same as apostasion; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy")
-- falling away, forsake.

647 apostasion (ap-os-tas'-ee-on). Neuter of a (presumed) adjective from a derivative of afisteemi; properly, something separative, i.e. (specially) divorce
-- (writing of) divorcement.

868 afisteemi (af-is-tay'-mee). From apo and histeemi; to remove, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.
-- depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.

575 apo (ah-po' [short o]). A primary particle; "off," i.e. Away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literal or figurative)
-- (X here-)after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for(-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-)on(-ce), since, with. In composition (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.

2476 histeemi (his'-tay-mee). A prolonged form of a primary staoo stah'-o (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively)
-- abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay, present, set (up), stanch, stand (by, forth, still, up). Compare titheemi.

None of this refers to a "catching away" or a "snatching away" as in the 4th chapter of 1 Thessalonians:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The single word translated as "shall be caught up" is "harpageesometha" the first-person plural of the future, indicative, passive form of "harpazoo."

726 harpazoo (har-pad'-zo). From a derivative of haireomai; to seize (in various applications) -- catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

138 haireoo (hahee-reh'-o). To take. Middle voice: haireomai (hahee-reh'-om-ahee). Probably akin to airoo; to take for oneself, i.e. To prefer -- choose. Some of the forms are borrowed from a cognate hellomai hel'-lom-ahee; which is otherwise obsolete.

THIS is the word used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, not apostasia. Apostasia means "to divorce" oneself from someone or something, such as the teachings of Mosheh (Moses) in the Torah, hence the English word "apostate," "a person who renounces a religious or political belief or principle!" The two words are NOT synonymous.

[n2thelight]

On 12/23/2018 at 9:48 AM, iamlamad said:

No wonder you don't understand! You have a problem with your reading!

Don't think I do,,and didn't take that negatively 

What I see you saying is Christ can't come until He comes,help me out in explaining it a little more

[Retrobyter]

On 12/23/2018 at 10:25 AM, iamlamad said:

Have no fear: a great revival is coming. It will be greater than any revival of the past. And when it reaches its peak, Jesus will come and take us home. Our nation will last until then. After we are gone, I suspect the US will cease to exist as we have known it. 

Shalom, iamlamad.

Another interjection, if you don't mind. Actually, things don't get better and better; they get exponentially WORSE!

Luke 18:1-8 (KJV)

1 And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint; 2 Saying,

"There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man: 3 And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying,

'Avenge me of mine adversary.'

4 And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself,

'Though I fear not God, nor regard man; 5 Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.' "

6 And the Lord said,

"Hear what the unjust judge saith. 7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? 8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?"

The Greek of this highlighted sentence is, "Pleen, ho Huios tou anthroopou elthoon, ara heureesei teen pistin epi tees gees?"

In Greek, there are two different ways this highlighted question could have been asked. Asking the question in THIS way expects a NEGATIVE response. "Shall He find faith upon the earth?" The expected answer is "No."

Why do you think that the Messiah is so frustrated when He arrives to find NO ONE who would stand with Him in battle?

Isaiah 63:1-6 (KJV)

1 "Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength?"

"I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save (rescue)."

2 "Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?"

3 "I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. 4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. 5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation (rescue) unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. 6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth."

"Jesus will come and take you home" WHERE? "To Heaven?" There's no such place. Instead, He will bring you to the Middle East, particularly Israel, to help Him with the battles. He doesn't need you to fight; He needs a "ground crew," so to speak. That is, He needs people to help the wounded and to help the victims of oppression escape the bonds of servitude while He fights.

However, He needs people who are READY! Sadly, most of us have a tremendous learning curve to overcome first!