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Prophecy from 2Thes 2:3 happening now


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Okay you say it's not a falling away from the the truth rather a departure from the earth,however the below fits away from the truth perfectly 

Amos 8:11 "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:"

Also this one as well

I Timothy 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, hiving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"

Now since Paul wrote Timothy,why would you think he switched up the meaning when writing to the Thessolonians ?

Heck let's do another

Luke 8:13 "They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away."

 

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On 12/24/2018 at 11:43 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

Another interjection, if you don't mind. Actually, things don't get better and better; they get exponentially WORSE!

Luke 18:1-8 (KJV)

1 And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint; 2 Saying,

"There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man: 3 And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying,

'Avenge me of mine adversary.'

4 And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself,

'Though I fear not God, nor regard man; 5 Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.' "

6 And the Lord said,

"Hear what the unjust judge saith. 7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? 8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?"

The Greek of this highlighted sentence is, "Pleen, ho Huios tou anthroopou elthoon, ara heureesei teen pistin epi tees gees?"

In Greek, there are two different ways this highlighted question could have been asked. Asking the question in THIS way expects a NEGATIVE response. "Shall He find faith upon the earth?" The expected answer is "No."

Why do you think that the Messiah is so frustrated when He arrives to find NO ONE who would stand with Him in battle?

Isaiah 63:1-6 (KJV)

1 "Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength?"

"I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save (rescue)."

2 "Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?"

3 "I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. 4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. 5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation (rescue) unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. 6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth."

"Jesus will come and take you home" WHERE? "To Heaven?" There's no such place. Instead, He will bring you to the Middle East, particularly Israel, to help Him with the battles. He doesn't need you to fight; He needs a "ground crew," so to speak. That is, He needs people to help the wounded and to help the victims of oppression escape the bonds of servitude while He fights.

However, He needs people who are READY! Sadly, most of us have a tremendous learning curve to overcome first!

I will agree: for the sinner, things WILL get worse and worse: but for the believer, things are looking VERY WELL indeed: we are close to the time we go home! 

If you don't wish to go to heaven, I am sure Jesus will oblige. However, the rest of us will be escorted to your heavenly home - you know, those abodes Jesus went to build for us.  OF COURSE there is such a place. over the past 20 or 30 years, MANY have gone to see - and came back to tell. It seems you doubt their testimony. It is because of preconceived glasses.  

Indeed, I believe we WILL assist in battle - as many as are willing, when we RETURN with Him from heaven - as part of the armies of heaven.

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On 12/25/2018 at 2:16 AM, n2thelight said:

Okay you say it's not a falling away from the the truth rather a departure from the earth,however the below fits away from the truth perfectly 

Amos 8:11 "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:"

Also this one as well

I Timothy 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, hiving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"

Now since Paul wrote Timothy,why would you think he switched up the meaning when writing to the Thessolonians ?

Heck let's do another

Luke 8:13 "They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away."

 

There is a big difference between "some" and a majority. Agreed, "SOME will depart from the faith."  But while they are departing, two more will come for every one that departs. The church is growing worldwide, not shrinking. 

In Paul's argument, it must be a very SIGNIFICANT departure - a departing that all would know: "now THAT is what Paul was talking about." If it were "some" departing, how would anyone know when some made enough to be THE departing Paul was talking about?

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On 12/24/2018 at 10:40 PM, n2thelight said:

Don't think I do,,and didn't take that negatively 

What I see you saying is Christ can't come until He comes,help me out in explaining it a little more

That is really not what Paul is saying. He is saying THE DAY will not come and be present unless or until the significant departing comes first. For "the day" think the day of destruction like the Old Testament has it.  Then, AFTER the significant departing - the gathering in Paul's theme or the one restraining being "taken out of the way," THEN the man of sin will be revealed. And when people see that revealing - then will KNOW the day has started and they are IN IT.

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On 12/24/2018 at 10:35 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

I'm going back to the source of the idea that "falling away" could mean a "catching away" as in a "departure (from the earth)."

It's HERE that we need to get a better understanding of the Greek word translated as "falling away":

646 apostasia (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah). Feminine of the same as apostasion; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy")
-- falling away, forsake.

647 apostasion (ap-os-tas'-ee-on). Neuter of a (presumed) adjective from a derivative of afisteemi; properly, something separative, i.e. (specially) divorce
-- (writing of) divorcement.

868 afisteemi (af-is-tay'-mee). From apo and histeemi; to remove, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.
-- depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.

575 apo (ah-po' [short o]). A primary particle; "off," i.e. Away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literal or figurative)
-- (X here-)after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for(-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-)on(-ce), since, with. In composition (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.

2476 histeemi (his'-tay-mee). A prolonged form of a primary staoo stah'-o (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively)
-- abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay, present, set (up), stanch, stand (by, forth, still, up). Compare titheemi.

None of this refers to a "catching away" or a "snatching away" as in the 4th chapter of 1 Thessalonians:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The single word translated as "shall be caught up" is "harpageesometha" the first-person plural of the future, indicative, passive form of "harpazoo."

726 harpazoo (har-pad'-zo). From a derivative of haireomai; to seize (in various applications) -- catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

138 haireoo (hahee-reh'-o). To take. Middle voice: haireomai (hahee-reh'-om-ahee). Probably akin to airoo; to take for oneself, i.e. To prefer -- choose. Some of the forms are borrowed from a cognate hellomai hel'-lom-ahee; which is otherwise obsolete.

THIS is the word used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, not apostasia. Apostasia means "to divorce" oneself from someone or something, such as the teachings of Mosheh (Moses) in the Torah, hence the English word "apostate," "a person who renounces a religious or political belief or principle!" The two words are NOT synonymous.

Great job, but you did not go far enough: the Greek word, "apostasia" in a departing, but DOES NOT include what is being departed FROM. It is a compound word, Apo and Stasia.

For Apo, Strong's says:

The question is, CAN this word mean something else?  It is a compound word - "apo" and "stasia."

Here is what STrong's says about "apo:

of separation - of local separation,  after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing,...

of separation of a part from the whole,  where of a whole some part is taken

of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed 

of a state of separation, that is of distance,  physical, of distance of place

At the rapture, will some part of the entire population be taken? You know the answer is YES.

Will those taken be separated by DISTANCE? Again the answer is YES. 

The other part of the compound word 'stasia" is where we get "stationary" or "not moving" from.

Putting these two words together then can certainly mean a part of a whole group suddenly moved from where they were to a new location, and it happen so fast, the rest of the whole group seems stationary - not moving.

 

Think for a moment of our English word, paradigm. It is a compound word, para meaning parallel or side by side, and digm as a showing or display: as if bringing two things up close and side by side so as to compare.  However, sit in a college classroom and you will  hear something like a "shift" from something to something else! It has changed it meaning! 

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10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Great job, but you did not go far enough: the Greek word, "apostasia" in a departing, but DOES NOT include what is being departed FROM. It is a compound word, Apo and Stasia.

For Apo, Strong's says:

The question is, CAN this word mean something else?  It is a compound word - "apo" and "stasia."

Here is what STrong's says about "apo:

of separation - of local separation,  after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing,...

of separation of a part from the whole,  where of a whole some part is taken

of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed 

of a state of separation, that is of distance,  physical, of distance of place

At the rapture, will some part of the entire population be taken? You know the answer is YES.

Will those taken be separated by DISTANCE? Again the answer is YES. 

The other part of the compound word 'stasia" is where we get "stationary" or "not moving" from.

Putting these two words together then can certainly mean a part of a whole group suddenly moved from where they were to a new location, and it happen so fast, the rest of the whole group seems stationary - not moving.

 

Think for a moment of our English word, paradigm. It is a compound word, para meaning parallel or side by side, and digm as a showing or display: as if bringing two things up close and side by side so as to compare.  However, sit in a college classroom and you will  hear something like a "shift" from something to something else! It has changed it meaning! 

Shalom, iamlamad.

No, sir. You've LEFT the meaning of the word, apostasia, in your theory! The word means "to stand away-from" or "to stand apart!" It most certainly does NOT mean "to move so fast that the rest of the whole group seems stationary!" That's just a ludicrous interpretation of a simple word!

Furthermore, what is important is what these "apostates" have "stood away from!" It IS revealed in the context of 2 Thessalonians 2: "ho anthroopos tees anomias," which is rendered in some versions as "the man of sin" and in others "the man of lawlessness" is better described in the terms of what every child of Israel used: "the man against-the-Law (of God through Mosheh [Moses])" or "the man against-the TORAH." For a Gentile, no surprise there, but for a JEW to be against the TORAH is blasphemous! They should KNOW better! 

It's used again in verse 7 as "to ... musteerion ... tees anomias" or "the secret of being against-the-TORAH."

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11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I will agree: for the sinner, things WILL get worse and worse: but for the believer, things are looking VERY WELL indeed: we are close to the time we go home! 

If you don't wish to go to heaven, I am sure Jesus will oblige. However, the rest of us will be escorted to your heavenly home - you know, those abodes Jesus went to build for us.  OF COURSE there is such a place. over the past 20 or 30 years, MANY have gone to see - and came back to tell. It seems you doubt their testimony. It is because of preconceived glasses.  

Indeed, I believe we WILL assist in battle - as many as are willing, when we RETURN with Him from heaven - as part of the armies of heaven.

Shalom, iamlamad.

First, I know that Yeshua` left this earth to build for us a place, and that place is the New Jerusalem - Yerushalayim haChadashah; however, John 14:1-3 doesn't say that He comes back to take us there! To the contrary, Yeshua` said that He would come again, receive us to Himself, and "where I am, there ye may be also." He doesn't specify where He will go next in this context, but His heart is ALWAYS in His native Land, Israel.

Second, I don't appreciate your comment, "If you don't wish to go to heaven, I am sure Jesus will oblige." That's petty, my brother, and it's unbecoming of a child of God to say. It takes a heart different than that of the Messiah to think that statement is funny.

Third, while there are "three heavens," those "heavens" are described in 2 Peter 3:3-13 far better than in the idiotic formula "first heaven, of clouds; second heaven, of stars; third heaven, God's abode."

Peter said, "first heaven (and earth), before the FLOOD; second heaven (and earth) after the FLOOD and before the FIRE; third heaven (and earth), after the FIRE." And, this matches John's statements in Revelation 20-22.

When we are resurrected at His Second Coming, we shall be entering the last one thousand years of the second heaven (and earth), this CURRENT heaven (or sky) and this CURRENT earth! Then, after the Millennium, shall occur the Fire and Yeshua`s enemies will stand before the Great White Throne Judgment. It is not until AFTER the GWTJ that God will re-form the sky and the earth, having gone through the Fire, and make the New Sky and the New Earth. It's not until AFTER God re-forms the sky and the earth that the New Jerusalem shall descend to the New Earth, descending out of the third heaven (or sky), and landing upon the third earth.

We don't go "to Heaven"; in the snatching away, we shall go THROUGH the "heavens" - THROUGH the "skies" - to Israel to aide the Messiah in retaking His Land and helping Him to satisfy His urgency, His zeal, in rescuing His people from the invasion of the surrounding nations!

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8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

First, I know that Yeshua` left this earth to build for us a place, and that place is the New Jerusalem - Yerushalayim haChadashah; however, John 14:1-3 doesn't say that He comes back to take us there! To the contrary, Yeshua` said that He would come again, receive us to Himself, and "where I am, there ye may be also." He doesn't specify where He will go next in this context, but His heart is ALWAYS in His native Land, Israel.

Second, I don't appreciate your comment, "If you don't wish to go to heaven, I am sure Jesus will oblige." That's petty, my brother, and it's unbecoming of a child of God to say. It takes a heart different than that of the Messiah to think that statement is funny.

Third, while there are "three heavens," those "heavens" are described in 2 Peter 3:3-13 far better than in the idiotic formula "first heaven, of clouds; second heaven, of stars; third heaven, God's abode."

Peter said, "first heaven (and earth), before the FLOOD; second heaven (and earth) after the FLOOD and before the FIRE; third heaven (and earth), after the FIRE." And, this matches John's statements in Revelation 20-22.

When we are resurrected at His Second Coming, we shall be entering the last one thousand years of the second heaven (and earth), this CURRENT heaven (or sky) and this CURRENT earth! Then, after the Millennium, shall occur the Fire and Yeshua`s enemies will stand before the Great White Throne Judgment. It is not until AFTER the GWTJ that God will re-form the sky and the earth, having gone through the Fire, and make the New Sky and the New Earth. It's not until AFTER God re-forms the sky and the earth that the New Jerusalem shall descend to the New Earth, descending out of the third heaven (or sky), and landing upon the third earth.

We don't go "to Heaven"; in the snatching away, we shall go THROUGH the "heavens" - THROUGH the "skies" - to Israel to aide the Messiah in retaking His Land and helping Him to satisfy His urgency, His zeal, in rescuing His people from the invasion of the surrounding nations!

So I disagree with everything you wrote here. I don't think your understanding of these scriptures is even close to the majority of the churches beliefs - mine included.  

You should know, everything a believer has ever received from God has been received by FAITH. As is written, for someone who wavers, don't let them think they will receive anything from God. Why would the rapture be anything different? If you don't believe Jesus will take the Bride to heaven - to the homes He has prepared - then you are not qualified to go there.  It is a matter of faith - what you believe. 

It is kind of strange, you read the same scriptures we all read. The GREAT majority of believers around the world believe Jesus will take us to the homes he has prepared - in HEAVEN. That is the way we read John 14. We know Jesus will remain in heaven (where He is) during the entire 70th week, and we will BE "where He is."  I wonder then why you struggle so with this verse. 

I think your problem is understanding Peter. I guess, according to 2 Peter 3:3, You are one of those scoffers, just not believing Jesus will take us to heaven. You are not alone in your believe; there are others that struggle with this also. "the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:" Why read into that more than is there? We KNOW that in Noah's flood, every human on earth perished save Noah and family.  "the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment"  We also know that the heavens and earth of today is being reserved for fire. Paul told us our works will be tried by fire. Peter wrote that the elements of earth would melt. This is common knowledge in the church today. 

Where you MISS IT:  His second coming will be ONLY to collect His bride and return back to heaven to wait out the 70th week - as shown in 1 Thes. 4 and John 14. Finally, as shown in Rev. 19, He will come with His saints and the armies of heaven to the battle of Armageddon. This will be His THIRD coming. That seems to be a bad word, but it is truth. It seems many are afraid to count. 

Stop and think: WHERE Is the Christ just before His coming as shown in Rev. 19? Of course you know the answer as well as I do: IN HEAVEN. And that is where the marriage and supper will take place: IN HEAVEN. How will the Bride get there? By way of Paul's pretrib rapture - plain and simple. If you cannot believe this, you will remain in error in your thinking.  There is no nicer way of saying this. God is pretrib and the scriptures are pretrib. Paul shows us in 1 Thes 5 that the rapture will be the trigger for the DAY and the start of His wrath. God will NOT set any appointments for His Bride with His wrath poured out on earth. Keep in mind, if you have no doctor's appointments, you don't show up! Paul then shows us that those left behind will face His immediate wrath in the sudden destruction earthquake that begins the Day of the Lord.

Paul  shows us this again in 2 Thes. 2. The church is "taken out of the way" so that the man of sin can be revealed at the proper time. Then, for those that see the man of sin revealed, they will all know that THE DAY has started and they are now IN IT.

John shows us the very same thing. Paul's rapture will take place between the 5th and 6th seals, because the 6th seal begins God's wrath. Then shortly after, as shown in Rev. 7, John saw the raptured church IN HEAVEN. Then, perhaps 10 days later (ten days of awe) the 7th seal will be opened which will officially begin the 70th week of Daniel. Therefore, the scriptures are decidedly PREtrib.

Therefore I find your reading of Peter FAR different than the normal reading of the church. However, you are free to believe what you will - it is up to you.

He doesn't specify where He will go next in this context  Agreed, He does not in that passage. But the rest of scripture is extremely clear that Jesus remains in heaven during the 70th week of Daniel. Just so you know, Daniel's 70th week (a week prepared for Daniel's people, by the way) begins at the 7th seal and ends at the 7th vial.

In a small way, you are partially correct: in the gathering shown in Matthew 24, (and in Luke) God will send angels to gather all of Israel from heaven and from earth, and take THEM back to Israel. Sorry, but Gentiles will NOT be transported to Israel. 

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9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

No, sir. You've LEFT the meaning of the word, apostasia, in your theory! The word means "to stand away-from" or "to stand apart!" It most certainly does NOT mean "to move so fast that the rest of the whole group seems stationary!" That's just a ludicrous interpretation of a simple word!

Furthermore, what is important is what these "apostates" have "stood away from!" It IS revealed in the context of 2 Thessalonians 2: "ho anthroopos tees anomias," which is rendered in some versions as "the man of sin" and in others "the man of lawlessness" is better described in the terms of what every child of Israel used: "the man against-the-Law (of God through Mosheh [Moses])" or "the man against-the TORAH." For a Gentile, no surprise there, but for a JEW to be against the TORAH is blasphemous! They should KNOW better! 

It's used again in verse 7 as "to ... musteerion ... tees anomias" or "the secret of being against-the-TORAH."

That may well be ONE meaning. Sorry, but Paul was well verses in the Greek of the day, and He used it as a compound word keeping the meaning of each word. Note carefully, it is NOT "a simple word." Second, it is clear you do not understand the context of Paul's use of this word. Make no mistake, Paul's use of Apostasia is for the restrainer "taken out of the way." If you wish to believe a "falling away" (from what Paul does not specify)  fits with "taken out of the way" that is up to you. The truth is, it does not fit.  Neither does a falling away fit a very significant departing - so significant that when seen, all could say, "now THAT is what Paul was talking about!  How would anyone know if enough had "fallen away" to fit?  It would happen over time, one person at a time. But at the same time, somewhere else, two people COME to God. Sorry, but that meaning does not fit the context. Always remember, context is KING.

By the way, I will take Strong's translations over yours every day of the week. I think he knew what he was writing. 

where you miss it:  You are looking at the whole word; Strong's shows us the mean of each of the two words.  What you should think of is, COULD this compound word be used as Paul used it, and the church being "taken out of the way" or departing earth for heaven. Strong's most definitely says YES. 

It seems you and I will not agree on much. Your theories come FAR from the norm of commentators and normal church beliefs.

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On 12/30/2018 at 10:21 AM, iamlamad said:

So I disagree with everything you wrote here. I don't think your understanding of these scriptures is even close to the majority of the churches beliefs - mine included.  

Shalom, iamlamad.

Well, OF COURSE you do! You couldn't be cantankerous without disagreeing! Paul said, "Let GOD be true, and EVERY man a liar!" (Romans 3:4) It's time to drop the little, personal eschatologies that a person may hold (which are simply "opinions" about the Scriptures), and come back to the Scriptures.

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You should know, everything a believer has ever received from God has been received by FAITH. As is written, for someone who wavers, don't let them think they will receive anything from God. Why would the rapture be anything different? If you don't believe Jesus will take the Bride to heaven - to the homes He has prepared - then you are not qualified to go there.  It is a matter of faith - what you believe. 

What is it with you? Why do you always attack the person instead of the topic?! Who died and made YOU "judge, jury, and executioner?"

First, the "Bride," the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:2, 9-10), is already IN a place "above the heaven" (Heb. 12:22); that is "above the sky." That's where it's being prepared (John 14:1-3) and that's from whence it will descend to the New Sky and continue descending out of the New Sky to the New Earth (Rev. 21:2-3, 10-14).

John 14:1-3 (KJV)

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Hebrews 12:22-24 (KJV)

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly (Greek: epouranioo = "of or belonging to above-the-sky") Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Revelation 21:2-3 (KJV)

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (Greek: ek tou ouranou = "out of-the sky"), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Revelation 21:10-14 (KJV)

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Second, believers, whether identified as "Christians" or not, whether associated with a particular "called-out" assembly or not, are not called "the Bride" anywhere in Scripture! That comes PURELY from theology.

Third, Yeshua` doesn't "take [believers] to heaven - to the homes He has prepared"; the homes He has prepared, being a part of the New Jerusalem, are coming HERE!!! The Scriptures don't say, "He will take us THERE"; the Scriptures say, "The New Jerusalem will come HERE!" And, I'm sorry, but it doesn't matter what you or any other Christian may think or believe; that's what the Scriptures say. So, I'll just say it bluntly: I DON'T believe Yeshua` will take believers to the sky (for that's what "heaven" means) or even to the New Jerusalem, and it's up to HIM whether He counts me "qualified" to enter His City or not!

(And quit pulling Scripture verses out of context and using them in a twisted way! First, know what Ya`aqov ["James"] was talking about in James 1:6-7 before trying to use them in an argument!)

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It is kind of strange, you read the same scriptures we all read. The GREAT majority of believers around the world believe Jesus will take us to the homes he has prepared - in HEAVEN. That is the way we read John 14. We know Jesus will remain in heaven (where He is) during the entire 70th week, and we will BE "where He is."  I wonder then why you struggle so with this verse. 

Sorry, but you don't get that from John 14! You said, "We know Jesus will remain in heaven (where He is) during the entire 70th week." This belief-system is an eschatology that someone has derived FROM interpretations of various verses throughout Scriptures and IMPOSED upon their interpretation of John 14! Yeshua` wasn't saying, "Don't worry, I'll be back and pick you up" (where YOU add the words "and pick you up"); He was saying "Don't worry, I'll be busy for a while, but I WILL come back, and we'll be together again, never again to be separated!"

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I think your problem is understanding Peter. I guess, according to 2 Peter 3:3, You are one of those scoffers, just not believing Jesus will take us to heaven.

Then you would be guessing wrongly! There you go again! You're attacking the person instead of the topic! STICK TO THE TOPIC!

The scoffers in this passage are giving the same line as Evolutionists use today, that "all things continue as they were from the beginning..." or taking the stance of "uniformitarianism," neglecting the truth in the Scriptures of "catastrophism," in particular, the global Flood. I most emphatically believe in the promise of His coming! I just don't believe in what YOU'RE adding to it, namely, that He will then "turn around and go back and take us to heaven with Him in the process!" That take on these verses IS NOT THERE!

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You are not alone in your believe; there are others that struggle with this also. "the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:" Why read into that more than is there? We KNOW that in Noah's flood, every human on earth perished save Noah and family.

I haven't read anything more into what was written, but you NEGLECT a portion that it DOES say:

5 ...by the word of God the heavens (Greek: ouranoi = "skies") were of old, and the earth (Greek: gee = "earth") standing out of the water and in (Greek: dia = "through") the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:..

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  "the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment"  We also know that the heavens and earth of today is being reserved for fire. Paul told us our works will be tried by fire. Peter wrote that the elements of earth would melt. This is common knowledge in the church today. 

Right! The only thing I would add is that one must understand that the "heavens" again is the Greek word "ouranoi" which means the "skies," refers to the atmosphere of this planet. Maybe, I should also add that this "day of judgment" when the heavens and the earth are "being reserved for fire," is at the END of the Millennium, not at its beginning. It's the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT!

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Where you MISS IT:  His second coming will be ONLY to collect His bride and return back to heaven to wait out the 70th week - as shown in 1 Thes. 4 and John 14. Finally, as shown in Rev. 19, He will come with His saints and the armies of heaven to the battle of Armageddon. This will be His THIRD coming. That seems to be a bad word, but it is truth. It seems many are afraid to count.

You should know that I used to believe in a pretribulational rapture. Back then, I was a fundamental, independent Baptist in the BBFI. However, even then I would have strongly disagreed with you about the numbering of His Comings. His First Coming was His First Advent which we have just celebrated with the Christmas holiday. His Second Coming shall His Return, which we would have said would be in stages: The First Stage of His Second Coming will be the Rapture; the Second Stage of His Second Coming will be the Glorious Appearing (like in the Left Behind Series).

HOWEVER, I'm not that guy anymore. Today, I consider myself a rather unique Messianic Jew. Having learned that the Tribulation is NOT a "seven-year period" called Daniel's "70th Week" but is rather the whole period I once called the "Church Age," I now realize that there could NEVER be a "pre-trib rapture" because we're already IN the Tribulation (which began in the First Century A.D. and has been going on ever since)! See, neither 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 nor John 14:1-3 says that Yeshua` or His followers "return back to heaven." Instead, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 says that we learn that "the Lord Himself shall descend from the sky" and "the dead in the Messiah shall rise first" and we who remain alive shall be "snatched away with them in the clouds to meet the Lord Yeshua` in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord." It's actually quite close to what Yeshua` said in John 14:1-3, but again, neither one says that we're "going to heaven" afterward! That's the rub!

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 Stop and think: WHERE Is the Christ just before His coming as shown in Rev. 19? Of course you know the answer as well as I do: IN HEAVEN.

You mean "WHERE is the Messiah just before His coming?" ("Christ" is just the Greek translation of "Messiah.") The Messiah will be where He said He would be: "In His Father's house."

First, learn a few things about Avraham ("Abraham"): He was called "the friend of God."

James 2:20-23 (KJV)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

He was called a "Hebrew" or "`IVriyt" in Hebrew, which referred to the fact that He was of the lineage of `EeVer ("Heber" or "Eber"). 

1 Chronicles 1:24-27 (KJV)

24 Shem, Arphaxad, Shelah, 25 Eber, Peleg, Reu, 26 Serug, Nahor, Terah, 27 Abram; the same is Abraham.

It's also a Hebrew word meaning "wanderer," or "one who goes on, passes by." It's a word used for the nomadic Bedouins who followed their herds, living in tents. That is, tents were their homes! Such was the life for Avraham, Yitschaq (Isaac), and Ya`aqov (Jacob):

Hebrews 11:8-10 (KJV)

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles (Greek: skeenais the dative, feminine, plural of skeenee = "a tent or cloth hut") with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

And, what do we learn about the New Jerusalem?

Revelation 21:2-3 (KJV)

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (Greek: foonees megalees ek tou thronou = "a loud voice out of-the throne"; note: the word "heaven" is not there!) saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God (Greek: hee skeenee tou Theou = "the tent of-the God") is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

So, yes, Yeshua` was in God's Tent near His Father's throne; He's there now! But that is FAR earlier than Revelation 19, and Revelation 19 occurs AFTER Revelation 11, by which time Yeshua` has already returned! Let's look back at Revelation 11:

Revelation 11:15-19 (KJV)

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord (YHWH), and of his Christ (His Messiah); and he (YHWH) shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven (Greek: eenoigee ... en too ouranoo = "opened-upward in the sky"), and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

So, Yeshua` returns at that time! See, the thing you've got to come to grips with is that "heaven" means the "sky," not some "other dimension" or a place out there called "God's abode." THE THREE HEAVENS ARE NOT SPATIAL! THEY ARE CHRONOLOGICAL! It's NOT...

3 (God's "abode")
2 (of stars)
1 (of clouds)

BUT,

1 (FLOOD) 2 (FIRE) 3! ALL THREE "HEAVENS" ARE THE SKIES OF EACH STAGE OF THIS PLANET!

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And that is where the marriage and supper will take place: IN HEAVEN. How will the Bride get there? By way of Paul's pretrib rapture - plain and simple. If you cannot believe this, you will remain in error in your thinking.  There is no nicer way of saying this.

No, the marriage of the Lord is between Himself and His Kingdom, and this will take place IN HIS HOME COUNTRY where His Kingdom will begin. Yeshua` Himself said,

Matthew 26:29 (KJV)

29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

And we learned from Yeshua`s first miracle at Cana that wine is an integral part of a Jewish wedding feast.

One of the FIRST things you need to consider re-investigating is this:

Ephesians 2:11-17 (KJV)

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without (outside of) Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

And, that doesn't mean

"Jews + Gentiles = Church";

rather, it's ... 

"God's Kingdom + Gentiles = God's Kingdom! (Just bigger!)"

That's all I can do for tonight, but I'll write more about it later.

 

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