Prophecy from 2Thes 2:3 happening now

[iamlamad]

18 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

I love you as a brother, um, brother, but this is why it is dangerous to think that one has what one needs to understand Revelation at such a simple level. The Greek IS simple ... for a Greek to understand, but it's not so easy when translated into English. After all, English is not as refined a language as other languages with more cases, tenses, and parts of speech.

Long ago, I opened my mind to Yeshua`, the Jewish ramifications of the Scriptures, and the simple truths as defined by the original languages. When I was a believer in the pretribulational rapture, I was seriously CLOSED-MINDED to God's truth as revealed by the Scriptures! Things I believed didn't always make sense, but I accepted what I was taught anyway. When one of my "heroes in the faith" let me down, I took it rather hard. I basically kicked out everything I had been taught as a child, and, using new things I had learned up to that point, rebuilt my belief system based SOLELY on the Scriptures. I accepted two things: God was real, and He wanted to communicate with people in a written way, the Bible. I had already accepted the Messiah Yeshua` as my "Savior" (my Justifier), and so I had those few things on which I could rely.

There were certain Scriptures that shook my complacency: Isaiah 66:24 and Luke 19:27, for instance. I learned that Yeshua` was not the totally kind and benevolent "Savior" I was led to be believe in as a kid. This Son of man turns out to be a MAN'S MAN who will take no guff from anyone! Even the "emergency U.N. meeting" will be a source of ridicule!

Psalm 2:1-12 (KJV)

1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD (YHWH), and against his anointed (His Messiah), saying,

3 "Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us."

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. 5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6 "Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion! 7 I will declare the decree:

'the LORD (YHWH) hath said unto me,

"Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."'

10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth! 11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him!"

Don't think for a moment that I do not take these things seriously! I do NOT take them lightly! For a THOUSAND YEARS He shall be subduing His enemies, one enemy at a time!

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ (the Messiah) risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ (in the Messiah) shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(0) Christ (the Messiah) the firstfruits;
(1) afterward they that are Christ's (those who belong to the Messiah) at his coming. 
24 (2) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. (But when he saith, "all things are put under him," it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.) 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son (of God) also himself be subject unto him (God the Father) that put all things under him (the Son, the Messiah), that God (the Father) may be all in all.

This mirrors and harmonizes with Revelation 20:1-15 and 21:1-8:

Revelation 20:1-15; 21:1-8 (KJV)

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ (the Messiah) a thousand years. 5 (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ (the Messiah), and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (a loud voice out of the sky) saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

5 And he that sat upon the throne said,

"Behold, I make all things new."

And he said unto me,

"Write: for these words are true and faithful."

6 And he said unto me,

"It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

And, this changes the meaning of the parables, particularly that of the wheat and the tares:

Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43 (KJV)

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,

"The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him,

'Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?'

28 "He said unto them,

'An enemy hath done this.'

"The servants said unto him,

'Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?'

29 "But he said,

'Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers,

"Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."'"

...

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying,

"Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field."

37 He answered and said unto them,

"He that soweth the good seed is (=) the Son of man; 
38 The field is (=) the world;
the good seed are (=) the children of the kingdom;
but the tares are (=) the children of the wicked one; 
39 The enemy that sowed them is (=) the devil (the slanderer);
the harvest is (=) the end of the world (the end of the age);
and the reapers are (=) the angels (messengers). 

40 "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (the end of this age). 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels (messengers), and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Therefore, to understand this parable, simply substitute the seven elements which Yeshua` defined into the parable:

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,

"The kingdom of heaven is likened unto the Son of man which sowed children of the kingdom in his world: 25 But while men slept, the devil came and sowed children of the wicked one among the children of the kingdom, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the children of the wicked one also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him,

'Sir, didst not thou sow children of the kingdom in thy world? from whence then hath it children of the wicked one?'

28 "He said unto them,

'The devil hath done this.'

"The servants said unto him,

'Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?'

29 "But he said,

'Nay; lest while ye gather up the children of the wicked one, ye root up also the children of the kingdom with them. 30 Let both grow together until the end of the age: and in the time of the end of the age I will say to the messengers/angels,

"Gather ye together first the children of the wicked one, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the children of the kingdom into my barn."'"

Then, Yeshua` added the explanation at the end:

40 "As therefore the children of the wicked one are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (the end of this age). 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels (messengers), and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Thus, this parable is talking about the THOUSAND YEARS when Yeshua` begins His Kingdom here on this earth, in this world-system of government! It's NOT talking about this current time period at all!

His Kingdom most certainly did NOT start with 120 in the upper room! There was no "kingdom" at that time, "spiritual" or otherwise! That's just a twisting of the Scriptures to make them sound like the "Church" took the place of Israel for His Kingdom, another attempt at Replacement Theology!

And, just one more thing (for now): Have you ever considered Psalm 139: and taken the passage's thoughts to the ultimate level?

Psalm 139:7-12 (KJV)

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

This passage is used to support the idea of the omnipresence of God! So, how can God have "an abode" as such? Listen to Solomon's words:

2 Chronicles 6:12-21 (KJV)

12 And he stood before the altar of the LORD in the presence of all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands: 13 For Solomon had made a brasen scaffold, of five cubits long, and five cubits broad, and three cubits high, and had set it in the midst of the court: and upon it he stood, and kneeled down upon his knees before all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven (the skies), 14 And said,

"O LORD God of Israel, there is no God like thee in the heaven (in the skies), nor in the earth; which keepest covenant, and shewest mercy unto thy servants, that walk before thee with all their hearts: 15 Thou which hast kept with thy servant David my father that which thou hast promised him; and spakest with thy mouth, and hast fulfilled it with thine hand, as it is this day. 16 Now therefore, O LORD God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that which thou hast promised him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit upon the throne of Israel; yet so that thy children take heed to their way to walk in my law, as thou hast walked before me. 17 Now then, O LORD God of Israel, let thy word be verified, which thou hast spoken unto thy servant David.

18 "But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven (the skies) and the heaven of heavens (the sky of the skies = space) cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built! 19 Have respect therefore to the prayer of thy servant, and to his supplication, O LORD my God, to hearken unto the cry and the prayer which thy servant prayeth before thee: 20 That thine eyes may be open upon this house day and night, upon the place whereof thou hast said that thou wouldest put thy name there; to hearken unto the prayer which thy servant prayeth toward this place. 21 Hearken therefore unto the supplications of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, which they shall make toward this place: hear thou from thy dwelling place, even from heaven; and when thou hearest, forgive.

And, God repeated this thought to Yesha`yahuw in the following:

Isaiah 66:1 (KJV)

1 Thus saith the LORD,

"The heaven is (the skies are) my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?"

Therefore, it is LUDICROUS to think that "God's abode" is the "third heaven" as some place beyond the "heaven of clouds" and the "heaven of stars!" It doesn't work!

since that is the way you feel and believe, I suspect God will never let you see it.  On the other hand, there are millions that DO believe and God is going to take us there. You could be among us, if you could believer. If I were you, I would read in Ezekiel where He saw the throne room, and then Rev. 4 where John saw it.  In fact, Isaiah also saw it. If you were open to human testimony, MANY have seen heaven in the last few years. You could learn from them. I guess you have chosen to remain in your world without a heaven where God dwells.

[Retrobyter]

21 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

since that is the way you feel and believe, I suspect God will never let you see it.  On the other hand, there are millions that DO believe and God is going to take us there. You could be among us, if you could believer. If I were you, I would read in Ezekiel where He saw the throne room, and then Rev. 4 where John saw it.  In fact, Isaiah also saw it. If you were open to human testimony, MANY have seen heaven in the last few years. You could learn from them. I guess you have chosen to remain in your world without a heaven where God dwells.

Shalom, iamlamad.

LOL! I have no fear that God will "never let me see 'Heaven'!" Look, there's a simple logic to this: IF I am wrong (although I don't think I am), then I will be surprised in a very pleasant way! IF I am right, I will awaken in the Resurrection associated with the Second Coming, or if I survive to the time when Yeshua` returns, then I will be changed in body into a strong, supernatural body, glowing with God's light, to begin working with the Messiah as He establishes His Kingdom beginning in the Land of Israel. I shall rule and reign with Him, ruling and reigning over the realm He will establish for me to rule, whether that be a city, a region, or a state. It may be IN Israel or it may (more likely) be a city in my history outside of Israel in which I will do a better job. My job will be to check in with Him often and take His lead on the wisdom He provides for rulership. As a "sub-king" to His leadership, I shall be an extension of His leadership in the earth in "my little corner of the world."

Politically, we read,

Revelation 20:4-6 (KJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Physically, we read,

1 Corinthians 15:35-54 (KJV)

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies (Greek: soomata epourania), and bodies terrestrial (Greek: soomata epigeia? but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.
It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:
it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 
44 It is sown a natural body (Greek: sooma psuchikon); it is raised a spiritual body (Greek: sooma pneumatikon). There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man "Adam was made a living soul (Greek: psucheen zoosan = "a-living air-breather")"; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit (Greek: pneuma zoo-opoioun = "a-life-giving air-blaster"). 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

But, before you think that His Kingdom is not "flesh and blood," remember the Resurrection of the Messiah:

Luke 24:36-43 (KJV)

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them,

"Peace be unto you."

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit (a ghost). 38 And he said unto them,

"Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them,

"Have ye here any meat?"

42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

And, when Yeshua` turns over the world-wide Kingdom to His Father, and continues to reign as the King of Israel, we shall see the New Jerusalem land upon the New Earth coming through the New Sky, and THAT is what many mistakenly call "Heaven!"

1 Corinthians 15:28 (KJV)

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Revelation 21:10-21 (KJV)

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; 20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

"Pearly gates" and "golden streets" are NOT descriptions of "Heaven"; they are part of the description of the New Jerusalem.

And, we shall continue to reign with Yeshua` the Messiah:

Revelation 22:1-5 (KJV)

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

And, that shall be true for YOU, too!

[iamlamad]

29 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

LOL! I have no fear that God will "never let me see 'Heaven'!" Look, there's a simple logic to this: IF I am wrong (although I don't think I am), then I will be surprised in a very pleasant way! IF I am right, I will awaken in the Resurrection associated with the Second Coming, or if I survive to the time when Yeshua` returns, then I will be changed in body into a strong, supernatural body, glowing with God's light, to begin working with the Messiah as He establishes His Kingdom beginning in the Land of Israel. I shall rule and reign with Him, ruling and reigning over the realm He will establish for me to rule, whether that be a city, a region, or a state. It may be IN Israel or it may (more likely) be a city in my history outside of Israel in which I will do a better job. My job will be to check in with Him often and take His lead on the wisdom He provides for rulership. As a "sub-king" to His leadership, I shall be an extension of His leadership in the earth in "my little corner of the world."

Politically, we read,

Revelation 20:4-6 (KJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Physically, we read,

1 Corinthians 15:35-54 (KJV)

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies (Greek: soomata epourania), and bodies terrestrial (Greek: soomata epigeia? but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.
It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:
it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 
44 It is sown a natural body (Greek: sooma psuchikon); it is raised a spiritual body (Greek: sooma pneumatikon). There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man "Adam was made a living soul (Greek: psucheen zoosan = "a-living air-breather")"; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit (Greek: pneuma zoo-opoioun = "a-life-giving air-blaster"). 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

But, before you think that His Kingdom is not "flesh and blood," remember the Resurrection of the Messiah:

Luke 24:36-43 (KJV)

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them,

"Peace be unto you."

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit (a ghost). 38 And he said unto them,

"Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them,

"Have ye here any meat?"

42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

And, when Yeshua` turns over the world-wide Kingdom to His Father, and continues to reign as the King of Israel, we shall see the New Jerusalem land upon the New Earth coming through the New Sky, and THAT is what many mistakenly call "Heaven!"

1 Corinthians 15:28 (KJV)

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Revelation 21:10-21 (KJV)

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; 20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

"Pearly gates" and "golden streets" are NOT descriptions of "Heaven"; they are part of the description of the New Jerusalem.

And, we shall continue to reign with Yeshua` the Messiah:

Revelation 22:1-5 (KJV)

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

And, that shall be true for YOU, too!

All this is great. But the truth is, John and Ezekiel saw the throne room of heaven. It is where Jesus went to build homes for us. 

Is this too much to believe?

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

All this is great. But the truth is, John and Ezekiel saw the throne room of heaven. It is where Jesus went to build homes for us. 

Is this too much to believe?

Shalom, iamlamad.

No, but on the other hand, both Yechezk'el ("Ezekiel") and Yochanan ("John") were PROPHETS or FORETELLERS of God! The question then is WHEN did they see the throne room of "heaven?" (And, was it indeed in a place called "heaven?") When a prophet sees a vision, that vision may be of the FUTURE!

It's very much like the "Transfiguration" of the Messiah: Matittyahuw ("Matthew") records it this way:

Matthew 16:24-17:9 (KJV)

24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples,

"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." 

1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus,

"Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias."

5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said,

"This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him."

6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. 7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said,

"Arise, and be not afraid."

8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying,

"Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead."

[Last Daze]

On 1/14/2019 at 4:31 AM, Retrobyter said:

24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples,

"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." 

1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus,

"Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias."

5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said,

"This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him."

6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. 7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said,

"Arise, and be not afraid."

8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying,

"Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead."

So, "the Son of man coming in His kingdom" is a reference to the risen Christ?  Makes perfect sense to me.  That may have not been the primary purpose of your post but it clicked when I read it.  Previously, I thought it was a reference to the tranfiguration vision itself, but referring to the resurrected Christ makes more sense.

• And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”  Matthew 28:18-20

The victorious risen King and His servants.

[OldCoot]

Well, I still hold the view that the passage is simply departure.  Virtually every English translation prior to the KJV used "departure" or "the departure".   Sure, the same Greek word is used in Acts 21:21, but there it specifically states what is being departed from.... Moshe, which is equivalent to the Covenant or Law in that discussion.

Dr. Kenneth Wuest makes the observation that without a definitive article of what is being departed from, it is hubris on the part of translators and readers to assume that the faith is what is being departed from.  Especially when taken in context with the totality of Chapter 2.  The context of the passage is in verse 1.... our gathering.   It does not fit the context using falling away in verse 3.   But "departure" does fit more appropriately.   

Verse 7 states that he who restrains will be taken out of the way to allow the False Messiah to be revealed.  That still fits the context.  And later in V10, deception is upon those did not receive the love of the truth.   That would imply that there are none around to be deceived who did receive the love of the truth.  

Again, the entire chapter is in relation to the premise of the first verse.... our gathering to Him.  The Holy Spirit indwells and seals the believer.  The Holy Spirit seems to be the one who is taken out of the way.  That would imply the believers He is charged with sealing unto redemption are no longer around.   Doesn't say that the HS is no longer around, it simply says He is taken out of the way.  Much like in Football, the Guard steps out of the way and the opposition can then reach the backfield and the Quarterback.   The HS steps aside and the False Messiah / AntiChrist / man of sin is then revealed and deception becomes full blown.

And V5, Paul seems to be referring back to the first letter to the Thessalonians where it will come upon the world as labor pains.  And in reading 1 Thes 4 and 5, one can see the likely reference to Isaiah 26.

How one sees these things is not a condition of salvation, and all of us are probably wrong on some point.  But for me, it seems relatively plain that a departure is occurring, and in the context of the chapter, it is a departure of the righteous before the False Messiah / Antichrist is revealed.   Not a departure from the faith.  I know that idea really causes some people angst.   

 

Edited February 10, 2019 by OldCoot
Spelling

[iamlamad]

On 2/9/2019 at 11:38 PM, OldCoot said:

Well, I still hold the view that the passage is simply departure.  Virtually every English translation prior to the KJV used "departure" or "the departure".   Sure, the same Greek word is used in Acts 21:21, but there it specifically states what is being departed from.... Moshe, which is equivalent to the Covenant or Law in that discussion.

Dr. Kenneth Wuest makes the observation that without a definitive article of what is being departed from, it is hubris on the part of translators and readers to assume that the faith is what is being departed from.  Especially when taken in context with the totality of Chapter 2.  The context of the passage is in verse 1.... our gathering.   It does not fit the context using falling away in verse 3.   But "departure" does fit more appropriately.   

Verse 7 states that he who restrains will be taken out of the way to allow the False Messiah to be revealed.  That still fits the context.  And later in V10, deception is upon those did not receive the love of the truth.   That would imply that there are none around to be deceived who did receive the love of the truth.  

Again, the entire chapter is in relation to the premise of the first verse.... our gathering to Him.  The Holy Spirit indwells and seals the believer.  The Holy Spirit seems to be the one who is taken out of the way.  That would imply the believers He is charged with sealing unto redemption are no longer around.   Doesn't say that the HS is no longer around, it simply says He is taken out of the way.  Much like in Football, the Guard steps out of the way and the opposition can then reach the backfield and the Quarterback.   The HS steps aside and the False Messiah / AntiChrist / man of sin is then revealed and deception becomes full blown.

And V5, Paul seems to be referring back to the first letter to the Thessalonians where it will come upon the world as labor pains.  And in reading 1 Thes 4 and 5, one can see the likely reference to Isaiah 26.

How one sees these things is not a condition of salvation, and all of us are probably wrong on some point.  But for me, it seems relatively plain that a departure is occurring, and in the context of the chapter, it is a departure of the righteous before the False Messiah / Antichrist is revealed.   Not a departure from the faith.  I know that idea really causes some people angst.   

Well done, good post: TRUTH.

[Steve Conley]

On 12/9/2018 at 9:20 AM, Last Daze said:

•  Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.  At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.  Matthew 24:9-10

While I agree that many are losing interest in "going to church" for a variety of reasons, the above verse correlates the falling away to the time of global tribulation by the phrase "At that time."  Many will stumble in their faith when they are forced to decide quickly between losing their life because of their faith or saving their life by worshiping the false prophet.  The mark and the image will serve the purpose of segregation.

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

LD, I have never seen a reference to the False Prophet being worshipped. Can you provide me with a reference for that? Thanks

Glory to Jesus Christ

[Last Daze]

3 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

LD, I have never seen a reference to the False Prophet being worshipped. Can you provide me with a reference for that? Thanks

Glory to Jesus Christ

The first thing to realize is that the false prophet (beast from the earth [Rev 13:11]) is the only human of the evil trio (dragon, beast, false prophet).  Its a common assumption that the beast is a human but there is no record in scripture that I can find where a human has ever been cast into, or let out of, the abyss.  Revelation 17:8 plainly states that the beast comes up out of the abyss.

• There was given to him [the beast] a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him.  Revelation 13:5

If the beast were a human, he would not need to be given a "mouth" since he would already have one.  This mouth that was given to the beast is the false prophet, aka the man of sin or son of perdition, and is the same as the horn in Daniel 7 that wages war against the saints for forty-two months.  Similarly, the horn in Daniel 7 is described as having eyes and a mouth to indicate that he is a human and not a spirit being.

• All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.  Revelation 13:8

This verse is a reference to the false prophet (the beast's mouth) being worshiped.  Of course, the beast, and the dragon are also worshiped by proxy since they are the true source of the false prophet's power.

[Michael37]

16 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

If the beast were a human, he would not need to be given a "mouth" since he would already have one.  This mouth that was given to the beast is the false prophet, aka the man of sin or son of perdition, and is the same as the horn in Daniel 7 that wages war against the saints for forty-two months.  Similarly, the horn in Daniel 7 is described as having eyes and a mouth to indicate that he is a human and not a spirit being.

• All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.  Revelation 13:8

This verse is a reference to the false prophet (the beast's mouth) being worshiped.  Of course, the beast, and the dragon are also worshiped by proxy since they are the true source of the false prophet's power.

I like where you're going with this. I'm giving you a thumbs up and a score of 10 out of 10 on this, Last Daze, but to God be the glory, great things He has done.