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AW Tozer Willful Sinning No Sacrifice


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"It appears to be out of accord with the rest of scripture." 

 

"it has been used as a club by Irresponsible preachers."

A.W. Tozer.

 

Assurance of salvation appears across many passages. Tozer rightly identifies this passage as "out of accord."

 

One of our Biblical Interpretation rules is known as the rule of perspicuity. Which is just a fancy way of saying we interpret the unclear in light of the clear. There are numerous passages about sin in the Bible. But if we want a full account of sin, its origin, its universality, its effect we would go to the book of Romans. Similarly we learn about salvation in relation to works in Romans or Ephesians or Galatians. We would not go to the Gospels for evidence or data on salvation because Jesus was preaching about ushering in the KOG. Assurance of salvation is found in Romans in the context of an outline that starts with all sin and are separated, Jews are equally separated, Jesus solves the sin problem through faith for Jew and gentile alike, we are sanctified not by works of the law but through adoption as sons and trust in the work of the HS, who also seals us in Christ. 

 

Clear. Our salvation has nothing to do with works and maintaining salvation can't have anything to do with works. Only by taken passages out of context and inferring meaning that the original audience never would have understood of the original texts do we get assurance of salvation by works!

 

The text in Hebrews is very controversial and has been since Church Fathers started commenting on it 1700 years ago. Its is unclear who these individuals are (saved who have rejected Christ committing the only unpardonable sin of rejecting the HS' witness regarding our sin and need for Christ's sacrifice, not Ever saved,or not sanctified by works (the least likely inference)).

Edited by Uber Genius
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6 minutes ago, Uber Genius said:

"It appears to be out of accord with the rest of scripture." 

 

"it has been used as a club by Irresponsible preachers."

A.W. Tozer.

 

Assurance of salvation appears across many passages. Tozer rightly identifies this passage as "out of accord."

 

One of our Biblical Interpretation rules is known as the rule of perspicuity. Which is just a fancy way of saying we interpret the unclear in light of the clear. There are numerous passages about sin in the Bible. But if we want a full account of sin, its origin, its universality, its effect we would go to the book of Romans. Similarly we Mir learn about salvation in relation to works in Romans or Ephesians or Galatians. We would not go to the Gospels for evidence or data on salvation because Jesus was preaching about ushering in the KOG. 

 

The text in Hebrews is very controversial and has been since Church Fathers started commenting on it 1700 years ago. Its is unclear who these individuals are (saved who have rejected Christ committing the only unpardonable sin of rejecting the HS' witness regarding our sin and need for Christ's sacrifice, not Ever saved,or not sanctified by works (the least likely inference)).

This reminds me of what I say to people that are afraid they have committed the unpardonable sin (and it hints at what I think it is) - If you are afraid you have committed it, then you haven't. ;)

Edited by Still Alive
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4 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

If you are afraid you have committed it, then you haven't. ;)

Genius. LOL. Love your thinking. 

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11 hours ago, Still Alive said:

I use the Peter vs Judas example a lot. They both abandoned Christ. The life saving difference is not about what they did. It is about their response to what they did. Judas was overehelmed with guilt and apparently did not repent. Peter was convicted and he repented. If Judas had repented I would expect to see him in eternity.

No. Peter, Thomas and the other 9 Apostles would also have been lost to perdition if the resurrected Christ did not appear to them and Personally call them back into the faith or belief. Similarly for Saul of Tarsus or later Apostle Paul. Repentance only came into the picture after the Personal intervention of the Lord/God Jesus Christ. This only happened to the Apostles because they were special, ie "No one could pluck them out of God's hands" or "None were lost except the son of perdition". This did not and does not or may not happen to every Tom, Dik, Harry and ordinary Christians who may also deny the faith or depart from the faith or lost faith or etc.

God could also have intervened Personally and saved Judas Iscariot from hell/perdition but that was not His will because of Judas's willful sins of betrayal of Christ and unbelief. Judas likely fell into the Pharisees' camp in wanting a Christ/Messiah who would defeat the foreign Roman rulers and gift the Jews back their kingdom of earth, ie Judah/Israel(JOHN.6:15).

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AW Tozer claimed that no other Scripture backs up HEBREWS.10:26-31's "For if we sin willfully ....". Not so, there are many, eg HEBREWS.6:1-8, REVELATION.22:12-15, MATTHEW.7:21-23, 1COR.6:9-10, GALATIANS.5:19-21. Also .......

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ROMANS.5 & 6 (NKJV) = 5:18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

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Tozer claimed that "For if we sin willfully" actually means "For if we unbelieve willfully" or "For if we apostate or stop believing willfully". Not so. If it were so, Paul could have easily written as such, eg he wrote "unbelief" at ROMANS.11:20 & 23 and HEBREWS.3:12 & 19. Seems, Tozer was the one twisting or misinterpreting Scripture.

Even if Tozer was right, the sin of unbelief or apostasy will still result in being unsaved or lost salvation as "there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins". So, the above AW Tozer video has also proven the OSAS doctrine to be false.

Edited by discipler777
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I hope Newbies will find peace of mind, instead of letting one misunderstood verse of Hebrews guide their entire thinking.When error is you foundation, it not a surprise when all that follows is madness.

 

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AW Tozer claimed that 1JOHN.2:1-2 = "1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." allows Christians to even go and sin willfully/intentionally and unrepentantly and still remain always saved because there will always remain a sacrifice for sins. Not so, because his claim is against the Scripture at HEBREWS.10:26-31 & 6:1-8, MATTHEW.7:21-23, REVELATION.22:12-15, 1CORINTHIANS.6:9-10, GALATIANS.5:19-21, etc, against common sense and against a HOLY God. Also .......

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1JOHN.3: (NKJV) Sin and the Child of God

4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. ...

13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

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As a Jewish Christian, the Apostle John was well aware of the difference between unintentional and intentional sins, and repentance, eg 1JOHN.5:16-17 = "16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death."  ... So, John was likely referring to unintentional and repentant intentional/willful sins at 1JOHN.2:1-2 and to unrepentant and  intentional/willful sins at 1JOHN.3. The latter sins lead to "has no eternal life abiding in him/her".

No Christian is perfect, ie they may still fall into unintentional and repentant intentional/willful sins as per 1JOHN.2:1-2, but those who go and commit more unrepentant and intentional/willful sins or commit them repeatedly are of the devil and have no eternal life abiding in them.

Edited by discipler777
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12 hours ago, Still Alive said:

Today I am forgiven. Today I am saved. Today I need the blood of Christ. And I can go forward with confidence knowing I am his and that though everything is permissible, not everything is profitable. Sure, I disobey "dad" from time to time, and it pains me that I do. I completely sympathize with Paul when he said he does the things he does not want to, and doesn't do the things he should. And like him, I am very thankful that Jesus saved me from this wretched body in which I was placed - by him.

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1JOHN.3: (NKJV) = 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. ...

13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love [c]his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

.

This is evidence/proof that there are misguided Christians who never stop sinning willfully and unrepentantly or who willingly submit to their carnal nature and do the works of the flesh, and falsely or self-deceivingly believe that they will still be "always saved once saved"(cf GALATIANS.5:19-21). .......

.

ROMANS.6:1-4 = 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

.

1CORINTHIANS.5:1-2 Immorality Defiles the Church

5 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you.

.

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8 hours ago, Uber Genius said:
10 hours ago, discipler777 said:

Most good and responsible people do not bring unrepentant homeless and smelly drug-addicts, homeless and smelly lazy beggars, thieves, fornicators, pedophiles, bullies, fraudsters, extortioners, drunkards, HIV+ gays and other evildoers/law-breakers into their homes. Would you.? Similarly, the HOLY God will not allow unrepentant and willful "Christian" sinners/evildoers/Law-breakers and "uncleansed" non-Christians to enter into His home or the kingdom of God/heaven.

That is why there is a reformation process Paul describes as "Being perfected in the twinkling of an eye."

Further in 1 Cor 3:12-15 we see Christians who live like non-Christians "laying up evil works wood, hay, and stubble," that will burn up in the judgement. Those people will "suffer loss, but not loss of salvation."

 

So firstly, your view is knocked down (that is a philosophical phrase for shown to be untenable or completely false), by Paul.

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MATTHEW.7:15-23 (NKJV) You Will Know Them by Their Fruits

15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

I Never Knew You

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!

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GALATIANS.5:19-26 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

.

Quote

Those people will "suffer loss, but not loss of salvation."

But not if they are unrepentant and willful evil-workers-of-the-flesh/sinners/Law-breakers.

The incest-sinner of 1COR.5:5 might not have been saved if he did not repent of his willful sin/evil-work/Law-breaking. If he repented, he might have been saved.

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9 hours ago, Uber Genius said:
10 hours ago, discipler777 said:

Most good and responsible people do not bring unrepentant homeless and smelly drug-addicts, homeless and smelly lazy beggars, thieves, fornicators, pedophiles, bullies, fraudsters, extortioners, drunkards, HIV+ gays and other evildoers/law-breakers into their homes. Would you.? Similarly, the HOLY God will not allow unrepentant and willful "Christian" sinners/evildoers/Law-breakers and "uncleansed" non-Christians to enter into His home or the kingdom of God/heaven.

....

I would engage further but I have to go serve food at a shelter to "Unrepentant, homeless, smelly drug-addicts who are mostly beggars and thieves."

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But the point is to bring the unrepentant homeless and smelly drug-addicts, beggars, thieves and the rest to stay "forever" in your home(cf MATTHEW.25:35-36).

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