AW Tozer Willful Sinning No Sacrifice

[George]

 

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

 

I  don’t know Why I can’t figure out how to post videos properly.....maybe next time I will get it right.....I apologize for being a burden and Of course I want to thank George for getting this out there for the world to see....some here already state that they will not view it......is Willfull ignorance as bad as Willfull sinning? I would guess God is not fond of either.I have heard from more than one Preacher that the misunderstanding of Hebrews 10 has lead countless people to despair, madness and suicide.That the purveyors Of such unnecessary  misery will not even make an attempt to be awakened from their error, shows cowardice and pride on a giant scale.Shame on them.

Edited December 10, 2018 by Blood Bought 1953

[enoob57]

I rejoice in the lineage of truth... I have been there long enough now to know it will indeed lead me home  

[discipler777]

On 12/10/2018 at 3:48 PM, Blood Bought 1953 said:

.is Willfull ignorance as bad as Willfull sinning? I would guess God is not fond of either.I have heard from more than one Preacher that the misunderstanding of Hebrews 10 has lead countless people to despair, madness and suicide.

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Well, the willful sin of apostasy by once-saved-Christians at HEBREWS.10:26-31 is just like other willful sins that will result in the unrepentant once-saved-Christian sinners/evil-workers/Law-breakers not inheriting the kingdom of God. Is willful apostasy not as bad as willful sins.? In fact, Scripture says there will be a Great Apostasy in the latter times, as in these times. So, OSAS is still false and unScriptural. .......

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1TIMOTHY.4:1-5 (NKJV) = The Great Apostasy

4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

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REVELATION.21:6-8 (NKJV) = 6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

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GALATIANS.5:19-21 = 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

[discipler777]

On 12/10/2018 at 10:48 PM, enoob57 said:

I rejoice in the lineage of truth... I have been there long enough now to know it will indeed lead me home  

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JOHN.14: (NKJV) = The Way, the Truth, and the Life

14 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. ...

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Jesus Promises Another Helper

15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Indwelling of the Father and the Son

19 “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. 20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”

23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.

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JOHN.15:1-8 = The True Vine

15 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

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Edited December 11, 2018 by discipler777

[discipler777]

MATTHEW.7:21-23 (NKJV) = I Never Knew You

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

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Wrt the AW Tozer video above, doesn't MATTHEW.7:21-23, 1CORINTHIANS.6:9-10, GALATIANS.5:19-21 and REVELATION.22:12-15 back up HEBREWS.10:26-31's "For if we SIN willfully after ...".?

Like I already said, JOHN.17:11-12 says that not one of the Apostles were lost except for the son of perdition/hell(= Judas Iscariot). What happened.? Peter denied Jesus Christ 3X when facing persecution and despair. As per MATTHEW.10:33, he had denied the faith = was lost. The resurrected Christ had to Personally call Peter and the other 10 Apostles back into faith. Eg .......

JOHN.20:24-25 = 24 Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.”

So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”

26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!” 27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”

28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed.Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

So, the story of Peter's denial as continuous forgiveness of willful and unrepented sins/Law-breaking does not back up AW Tozer's arguments that HEBREWS.10:26-31 was specifically and only referring to the sin of unbelief or apostasy. There are many holes in Tozer's arguments.

Eg in the Old Testament at LEVITICUS.4:2, animal sacrifices could only atone for or forgive unintentional sins, not intentional or willful sins. There was no OT sacrifice for intentional/willful sins, ie the convicted  intentional/willful sinner faces judgement or punishment according to the law of ni4ni, eg convicted murderers, adulterers, homosexuals, blasphemers, etc were executed by the Jews in ancient Judah/Israel and thieves had to pay 4X the compensation to the victim.

In the New Testament, the same applies as in the OT wrt Jesus's sacrifice for sins, except for the added gift of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ even for intentional/willful sinners, eg Paul was a persecuting murderer who was confronted by Jesus Christ, he repented, was forgiven and saved but he had to suffer somewhat for his earlier sins(ACTS.9:16). Paul did not go and sin some more(cf JOHN.5:14 & 8:11) Bear in mind that God/Jesus has the authority and power to pardon or forgive any sin/evil-deed/Law-breaking, unintentional and intentional = healing, exorcisms, deliverance, etc, eg King David was a repentant and forgiven murderer and adulterer, ie God did not kill him on the spot.

.

Edited December 12, 2018 by discipler777

[discipler777]

A Christian who commits apostasy has stopped believing in Jesus Christ and His sacrifice for sins on the Cross. Whether there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins through the blood of Jesus Christ does not concern the ex-Christian apostate any more. For AW Tozer to say that HEBREWS.10:26-31 applies only to ex-Christian apostates or believers-turned-unbelievers who no longer believe in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, does not compute or it makes little sense. It's like Tozer saying there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins for atheists.

The Law of God according to the law of ni4ni applies to both Christians and non-Christians, ie good and law-abiding atheists/unbelievers will also be blessed by God with a good and long life on earth. "For there is no partiality with God"(ROMANS.2:5-11) The only difference is that Christian believers will die and go to heaven while the rest will die and go to hell.

HEBREWS.10:26-31 applying to misguided Christians who falsely believe that there remains a sacrifice for sins even if they go and sin willfully and unrepentantly, makes more sense or logic.

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HEBREWS.10:26-31 (NKJV) = 26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “TheLord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

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DEUTERONOMY.19:15-21 = The Law Concerning Witnesses

15 “One witness shall not rise against a man concerning any iniquity or any sin that he commits; by the mouth of two or three witnesses the matter shall be established. 16 If a false witness rises against any man to testify against him of wrongdoing, 17 then both men in the controversy shall stand before the Lord, before the priests and the judges who serve in those days. 18 And the judges shall make careful inquiry, and indeed, if the witness is a false witness, who has testified falsely against his brother, 19 then you shall do to him as he thought to have done to his brother; so you shall put away the evil from among you. 20 And those who remain shall hear and fear, and hereafter they shall not again commit such evil among you. 21 Your eye shall not pity: life shall be for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

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By mentioning the Old Testament Law of Witnesses, I think Paul was referring to any willful or intentional sin/iniquity/Law-breaking committed by once-saved-Christians and not referring to the willful sin of apostasy or unbelief by ex-Christians or no-longer-Christians.

Remember, in the OT, there was no animal sacrifice available for convicted intentional or willful sinners/Law-breakers = they had to undergo the punishment/judgment according to the law of ni4ni. In the case of the New Testament, the willful/intentional and unrepentant Christian sinners/Law-breakers, on top of being punished/cursed for their sins, may even lose their salvation for they have "trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace".

Edited December 11, 2018 by discipler777

[discipler777]

Most good and responsible people do not bring unrepentant homeless and smelly drug-addicts, homeless and smelly lazy beggars, thieves, fornicators, pedophiles, bullies, fraudsters, extortioners, drunkards, HIV+ gays and other evildoers/law-breakers into their homes. Would you.? Similarly, the HOLY God will not allow unrepentant and willful "Christian" sinners/evildoers/Law-breakers and "uncleansed" non-Christians to enter into His home or the kingdom of God/heaven.

[Still Alive]

1 hour ago, discipler777 said:

MATTHEW.7:21-23 (NKJV) = I Never Knew You

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

.

Wrt the AW Tozer video above, doesn't MATTHEW.7:21-23, 1CORINTHIANS.6:9-10, GALATIANS.5:19-21 and REVELATION.22:12-15 back up HEBREWS.10:26-31.?

Like I already said, JOHN.17:11-12 says that not one of the Apostles were lost except for the son of perdition/hell(= Judas Iscariot). What happened.? Peter denied Jesus Christ 3X when facing persecution and despair. As per MATTHEW.10:33, he had denied the faith = was lost. The resurrected Christ had to Personally call Peter and the other 10 Apostles back into faith. Eg .......

JOHN.20:24-25 = 24 Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.”

So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”

26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!” 27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”

28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed.Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

So, the story of Peter's denial as continuous forgiveness of willful and unrepented sins/Law-breaking does not back up AW Tozer's arguments that HEBREWS.10:26-31 was specifically and only referring to the sin of unbelief or apostasy. There are many holes in Tozer's arguments.

Eg in the Old Testament at LEVITICUS.4:2, animal sacrifices could only atone for or forgive unintentional sins, not intentional or willful sins. There was no OT sacrifice for intentional/willful sins, ie the convicted  intentional/willful sinner faces judgement or punishment according to the law of ni4ni, eg convicted murderers, adulterers, homosexuals, blasphemers, etc were executed by the Jews in ancient Judah/Israel and thieves had to pay 4X the compensation to the victim.

In the New Testament, the same applies as in the OT wrt Jesus's sacrifice for sins, except for the added gift of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ even for intentional/willful sinners, eg Paul was a persecuting murderer who was confronted by Jesus Christ, he repented, was forgiven and saved but he had to suffer somewhat for his earlier sins(ACTS.9:16). Paul did not go and sin some more(cf JOHN.5:14 & 8:11) Bear in mind that God/Jesus has the authority and power to pardon or forgive any sin/evil-deed/Law-breaking, unintentional and intentional = healing, exorcisms, deliverance, etc, eg King David was a repentant and forgiven murderer and adulterer, ie God did not kill him on the spot.

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I use the Peter vs Judas example a lot. They both abandoned Christ. The life saving difference is not about what they did. It is about their response to what they did. Judas was overehelmed with guilt and apparently did not repent. Peter was convicted and he repented. If Judas had repented I would expect to see him in eternity.

I've said for a long time that all human beings have the same lifespan, and we even have a word for it: "Today". 

Today I am forgiven. Today I am saved. Today I need the blood of Christ. And I can go forward with confidence knowing I am his and that though everything is permissible, not everything is profitable. Sure, I disobey "dad" from time to time, and it pains me that I do. I completely sympathize with Paul when he said he does the things he does not want to, and doesn't do the things he should. And like him, I am very thankful that Jesus saved me from this wretched body in which I was placed - by him.

[Uber Genius]

2 hours ago, discipler777 said:

Most good and responsible people do not bring unrepentant homeless and smelly drug-addicts, homeless and smelly lazy beggars, thieves, fornicators, pedophiles, bullies, fraudsters, extortioners, drunkards, HIV+ gays and other evildoers/law-breakers into their homes. Would you.? Similarly, the HOLY God will not allow unrepentant and willful "Christian" sinners/evildoers/Law-breakers and "uncleansed" non-Christians to enter into His home or the kingdom of God/heaven.

That is why there is a reformation process Paul describes as "Being perfected in the twinkling of an eye."

Further in 1 Cor 3:12-15 we see Christians who live like non-Christians "laying up evil works wood, hay, and stubble," that will burn up in the judgement. Those people will "suffer loss, but not loss of salvation."

 

So firstly, your view is knocked down (that is a philosophical phrase for shown to be untenable or completely false), by Paul.

 

Secondly, to avoid these types of theological missteps analogies from what we would do as limited, fallible creatures, being analogous to what an infinitely good, all-loving, all-powerful, all-knowing, perfect eternal God would do seem self-evidently (for most anyways) false!

 

Galatians 3 dealt with the saved by grace and perfected by works theology. "Foolish, ignorant, bewitched," are not superlatives!

 

I would engage further but I have to go serve food at a shelter to "Unrepentant, homeless, smelly drug-addicts who are mostly beggars and thieves."

Now come-on your not really a Christian are you? You are posing as a straw man Christian the media represents as Christian, right? 

You know the ones, Westboro Baptists, who have never read any of the NT but claim to represent Jesus. Or the guys like Brother Judd or Sister Cindy who travel around the country telling college students they are going to hell because they are whores and whoremongers. 

Edited December 11, 2018 by Uber Genius