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thomas t

"Unless You Prove Bible Right I Stay Non-Believer"?

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Dear community,

I hear so often from atheists, so-called agnostics, that they don't believe because they don't see any evidence that the Bible is true (here again).

But do you think it is reasonable to refrain from converting until the Bible is proven as truth?

Even if you think there is a 50% probabilty of the Bible being true it makes sense, in my view, to proclaim Jesus as Lord, already. ("Jesus, if you are there...")

Just to be on the safe side when it comes to the question where we spend eternity.

Regards, Thomas

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I honestly believe salvation is a gift from God. We are given the gift of belief. The Bible certifies our belief. Just my thoughts. 

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On 12/10/2018 at 11:35 AM, thomas t said:

Dear community,

I hear so often from atheists, so-called agnostics, that they don't believe because they don't see any evidence that the Bible is true (here again).

But do you think it is reasonable to refrain from converting until the Bible is proven as truth?

Even if you think there is a 50% probabilty of the Bible being true it makes sense, in my view, to proclaim Jesus as Lord, already. ("Jesus, if you are there...")

Just to be on the safe side when it comes to the question where we spend eternity.

Regards, Thomas

We don't choose God. He chooses us. I believe there are three kinds of people: Found sheep, goats, and lost sheep. When you are sharing the gospel with lost sheep and goats, you don't know which is which. So you share and let the Holy Spirit do its work. If they are lost sheep, they will become found sheep. If they are goats, well, they are goats. For me, they are good for cheese. I love goat cheese. 

You don't have to beat lost sheep over the head with a big bible. And, truth be told, they may even appear like goats to you, only to become found sheep years from now. I was a lost sheep until I was 27. Before that I was an "intellectual agnostic."

So don't sweat it. Most of the bible is not written regarding how to bring people to Jesus - that's easy (if they are lost sheep). Most of it is instructions to Christians about how to live their life.

Life's too short to be going around trying to reason with goats. Share the message and, if they reject it, move on to the next "potential lost sheep". 

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Pascal's wager. 

I have mixed feelings about the subject. I am currently of the thinking that we don't have direct control over what we will believe, a view called doxastic voluntarism. This would mean that even if you offered me $1,000,000 to believe there was an elephant standing in my office, sooner or later I would demonstrate that I don't actually believe it even though I were motivated to believe that it was true. 

I think how we might approach the Bible's truth claims is more like how we approach historical claims. Do we think Abe Lincoln did x and said y? There are several versions of the Gettysburg Address and historians aren't certain which, if any is correct. But we don't reject that historians know the gist of what was said. Nor do we doubt the existence of Abe, or that he was POTUS. So too we can engage the facts in the Bible pertaining say the claim that Christ existed, he died on a cross, was risen, and that his followers passed on his teaching. 

The reliability of the gospels has been argued by scholars for over 50 years making the following points:

five reasons why I think we ought to assume that the gospels are reliable until proven wrong:

1. There was insufficient time for legendary influences to expunge the historical facts. The interval of time between the events themselves and recording of them in the gospels is too short to have allowed the memory of what had or had not actually happened to be erased.

2. The gospels are not analogous to folk tales or contemporary "urban legends." Tales like those of Paul Bunyan and Pecos Bill or contemporary urban legends like the "vanishing hitchhiker" rarely concern actual historical individuals and are thus not analogous to the gospel narratives.

3. The Jewish transmission of sacred traditions was highly developed and reliable. In an oral culture like that of first century Palestine the ability to memorize and retain large tracts of oral tradition was a highly prized and highly developed skill. From the earliest age children in the home, elementary school, and the synagogue were taught to memorize faithfully sacred tradition. The disciples would have exercised similar care with the teachings of Jesus.

4. There were significant restraints on the embellishment of traditions about Jesus, such as the presence of eyewitnesses and the apostles’ supervision. Since those who had seen and heard Jesus continued to live and the tradition about Jesus remained under the supervision of the apostles, these factors would act as a natural check on tendencies to elaborate the facts in a direction contrary to that preserved by those who had known Jesus.

5. The Gospel writers have a proven track record of historical reliability.

for more see:https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/scholarly-writings/historical-jesus/rediscovering-the-historical-jesus-the-evidence-for-jesus/

 

It seems that over time one can acquire a trust in the gospel accounts that is sufficient to then support a handful of facts about Jesus, his death and resurrection. Further one can intuit the veracity of Jesus' followers since most signed their testimonies in their own blood rather than admit to a hoax. Further an atheist can examine:

Cosmological arguments

Teleological arguments

Transcendent arguments

Moral arguments 

In favor of God's existence.

Finally, all can engage in the testimonies of the changed lives of Christians.

The HS is doing the drawing, convicting, and some mysterious cognitive dissonance destruction that we can't begin to analyze. But I find this to be more helpful than the Pascal's wager approach, in fact pensees is a work of apologetics with a nod to "If all else fails, there is this idea of a wager..." so even Pascal didn't suggest the method as anything other than a hail mary." Or so I have been led to believe. 

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It's about transformation and essence... I am because in believing His Word I have received the reality of Him both objectively and subjectively... I am born s/Spiritually and it is the difference from night and day... God does not give Himself to unbelief~ why should He! 

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The key is believing that Jesus Christ is who He says He is. Then Salvation is from the death, burial, and resurrection of our God! Simple yet impossible. So be it. 

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anyone who says they do not believe because they do not see evidence the bible is true... they have not spent very much time reading the bible.  and if they have its in the mindset ... see this isnt true... they are just out to be a nay-sayer.  the bible speaks for itself.  there has never been an ordinary human to ever walk the earth that has enough wisdom to write such a book.  or even a group of men. 

the best you can do with those kind is plant some seeds and pray for them.  they are not really seeking righteousness or God or to be better.  they are out to prove they are right. 

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On 12/10/2018 at 11:35 AM, thomas t said:

Dear community,

I hear so often from atheists, so-called agnostics, that they don't believe because they don't see any evidence that the Bible is true (here again).

But do you think it is reasonable to refrain from converting until the Bible is proven as truth?

Even if you think there is a 50% probabilty of the Bible being true it makes sense, in my view, to proclaim Jesus as Lord, already. ("Jesus, if you are there...")

Just to be on the safe side when it comes to the question where we spend eternity.

Regards, Thomas

No one supports the position that the bible as a whole is not truth. 

In the bible we have the mention of the Persian leaders and those leaders are mention in the Greek historical events. 

Alexander is mentioned and the Ptolemies are mention. 

We have the names of the cities, the languish, the coulture the monuments and the istorical mentions in the records of Egypt, Greece, Persian, Babylonian, Assyria and Rome. 

We have the testimonies of spiritual testimonies, other than Jesus and the Romans and the disciples. 

The Romans did not fight against a fictional threat of Jesus Christ. 

The Priests of Rome as the Priest of Pharao, gave testimony that they fight against the power of God and Jesus Christ. 

The Romans, the Greeks and the Egyptians were ocult spiritual people, practising the arts of ocult, and they Knew that the Gospel it is truth from their own sources. 

That's why they believed and they renounced their ocult beliefs for faith in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  

Not all believed and most believed under the threat of as believers that they will be prosecuted and loose their lifes. 

People in authority and great importance. 

One executioner drop his axe and stand in line wauting for his death.

Who knows why or if he show a vision just like Paul. 

The Greeks and the Romans were fertile people to believe, because they knew the truth as to what happened to people after they die. 

So when they heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ which includes the new heavenly inheritance for people were more than glad to believe. 

As in the case of the young girl in Philippe, who proclaimed the trutfuleness of the Gospel and was following Paul declairing what Paul was preaching is truth. 

As in the case of Pharao who wanted the Lord God to remained in Egypt , so Egypt will have his blessings. 

Why would the Pharao want the blessings of God when he had the blessings of his own Gods.

This is because his Priest told him that they cannot win against the Lord God. 

The same for the Romans, the priests of the Ceasar told him that all about Jesus as the Lord of Lord and the Judge of all, and he being resurected and in Heaven and the new Heavenly Inheritance of the believers it is truth, only as the Emperors had authority over the people and their beliefs and wanted them to be only idolaters and to be worship as Gods themselfs.

They did not want their subjects to believe for many other equality aspects and the fact that they will appear and be Judge , they Romans from a Jew, they had crusified. 

Balance your thoughts, like my cousin you may have been reading too much antichrist literature without you knowing.

Balanced your thoughts. 

Not all demons denie the Gospel of Jesus Christ...

Many will tell you "not to believe it", because they believed themselfs that it is truth, but they cannot be saved because Jesus died for the redemption of the mankind only. 

They say you cannot do what you like to do, if you believe. 

But this is not truth.

Jesus will accept your faith even if you want to live your own way. 

This is the saying of Paul, our works may Judge us , but our faith in Jesus Christ saves us. 

 

 

 

Edited by Your closest friendnt

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On ‎12‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 10:35 AM, thomas t said:

Dear community,

I hear so often from atheists, so-called agnostics, that they don't believe because they don't see any evidence that the Bible is true (here again).

But do you think it is reasonable to refrain from converting until the Bible is proven as truth?

Even if you think there is a 50% probabilty of the Bible being true it makes sense, in my view, to proclaim Jesus as Lord, already. ("Jesus, if you are there...")

Just to be on the safe side when it comes to the question where we spend eternity.

Regards, Thomas

the Bible is a pretty large complex book....   what about it that you don't accept...

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1 hour ago, Vince said:

I agree with this to a point.  But there are non believers that do not think the evidence is sufficient to believe.  We as Christians are making the claim that it is true so we have the burden of proof.  Not the unbeliever.  And it is up to the person to decide for themselves if the evidence is overwhelming enough.  I do not believe because of evidence the bible is true.  It is the other way around.  I believe the bible is true because God has given me my faith to believe. Jn 6:44.  Paul reasoned with people, preached the gospel and then if they did not believe he left them behind and went somewhere else.  God gives us faith not evidence.  All we are told to do is teach others what Jesus taught.

When The One who made you reveals Himself to you , and puts His Spirit in you, and you are no longer the same person you used to be... Oh GLORY to GOD!  this is my focus

All creation testifys... the 22nd psalm was written around 2000 years prior to Jesus being born and describes to a T, crucifixion... which had not even been instated as a punishment then.  there is so much evidence in the bible only one not being objective and open minded will come away not believing.  The truth will set you free... and God dont lie, the only lie in The Book is when it gives account of when someone did lie, and the account of the lie is true.  even the prophecies that have come to pass, and even that are coming to pass now.  the mountainous amount of evidence in the bible is a monument in and of itself to the greatness of The Alpha and Omega. 

I am not going to waste to much time with debating if the bible is real... i will a little bit, but if they aint hearing, i bounce.  Psa 34:18  The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.   Who is broken and cannot fix themselves, this is who i look for.  those in despair... because that is where God revealed Himself to me....  I do not care to convince people just that scripture is God breathed...  but rather i want to give them a drink of water... living water.  if they aint thirsty... well go on and walk some more in this barren wasteland, maybe they will get thirsty. 

Psa 34:8  O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.

they got to want it, they got to seek, they got to hunger and thirst.  my job is to be a living sacrifice and bring people to Christ, and to those in Christ give them the part of Christ in me to edify.  not to debate with people who want to justify self so they can continue living as their own god. 

there is so much evidence in the bible its mind boggling. 

Edited by Cletus
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