God's sovereign choice

[George]

23 minutes ago, Butero said:

There is more to it than that.  We are in a fallen world because of Lucifer.  Nobody had sinned in heaven before his rebellion, so the conditions were perfect, yet he sinned.  As such, if you are right, there is nothing to stop us from rebelling in heaven after getting there.  

You've done a great job of dodging the question at hand.      It was a very easy question.  Did God create Lucifer with iniquity?   Because you miss this very first point ... the rest of your position sits on a "theory".

And ... thus you avoid the first question ... and hypothesizing ... a future possibility that the Bible absolutely shows is not going to happen.

So once again ... it's a simple question ... Did God create Lucifer with iniquity?

[Michael37]

17 minutes ago, Butero said:

What do you base that on?  Lucifer existed in a heaven that was perfect, and everyone is claiming he was perfect.  If he could fall, anyone could fall if God is not in complete control.  

That's where submission to the will of God is imperative to the inheritance of Eternal Life. Anyone who shrugs this off in this life forfeits the inheritance, but submitting completely to God's control insures one will not fall away, not in this life or the Life to come.

God always knows all that is knowable and there is nothing knowable that God doesn't always know - He always knows, has known, and will know those who are His own, and He always knows, has known, and will know those who are of the Devil.  When Lucifer the light-bearer of God became Satan the adversary of God from the beginning of Creation it was of his own volition, but not unforeseen by God who has always been aware of the evil polarity His supreme goodness would elicit.

Joh 8:44
(44)  You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

[George]

So this is my THEORY … THERE IS NOT ENOUGH BIBLICAL EVIDENCE TO MAKE A DOCTRINE OUT OF THIS THEORY … but this is my thoughts.

We read in 1 Peter 1:12 It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.

While most people focus on the fact that angels … want to look into salvation … I want to point out a specific phrase … “they were serving not themselves but YOU!”

So angels are serving us according to this verse.

And so we have this unique passage in 1 Cor. 6:3 that we “are to judge angels?”

So here goes my THEORY as to HOW LUCIFER could have fallen.

The angels were created in times past … before the sun, moon and stars … sometime before the creation … and served God. Now my THEORY begins …

Lucifer … who was serving God … finds out that He is to serve Man … and sees that Man has a simple free will situation. And thinks to himself … why should I serve man? When I can get man to give me his dominion and thus I will not serve … but I will then have dominion over man -- I can be god!

At the beginning … God gave man dominion …

Gen 1:26-28 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 

Gen 1:27  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. 

Gen 1:28  And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

However, at the fall we realize in Luke that man's dominion was given to Satan ...

Luk 4:5  And the devil took him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, 

Luk 4:6  and said to him, “To you I will give all this authority and their glory, for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will.

How did Satan get this authority?  Man gave it to him when Man in his free will chose to disobey God!  You see Satan thought ... I can be god ... as man will serve me if I can get man to simply eat the forbidden fruit.   In his mind ... I'm so grand ... and this is a piece of cake ... and now I can be god!

My theory postulates that Satan convinces 1/3 of the angels ... and says ... You don't need to serve man ... man is serving me!  They have fallen ... and there's no way that they can be redeemed.  So if you don't want to serve man any longer ... join me!  THIS IS THE ANGELS FREE WILL CHOICE. 

However, Satan doesn't realize that God FOREKNEW before foundation of the world ... He was already set to DIE, and REDEEM ... 

So even now ... Eph 3:9  and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God, who created all things, 
Eph 3:10  so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. 
Eph 3:11  This was according to the eternal purpose that he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, 
Eph 3:12  in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through our faith in him. 
Eph 3:13  So I ask you not to lose heart over what I am suffering for you, which is your glory. 

So now the manifold wisdom of God is being revealed to the angels through His Church!  Amazing passage!

So the angels had their "choice" to serve man for God ... or to have man serve them ... and this was their free will choice.  Adam and Eve had their free will choice at the garden.  And today, every man and woman have their free will choice .. Do I believe this gospel message?  Do I want to accept it or not?

So this is my THEORY ... I'm not even going to defend it ... it not WORTHY of being defended ... as its entirely SPECULATION but it helps me understand how a being created in perfection could have fallen.  Take it for what it is ... a THEORY.

 

[Heybro]

I'm so saddened in the reading of this thread, that you, Butero, being a Royal Member, could get this question so wrong, and therefore it causes me to wonder what else you don't seem to understand about God's Absolute Sovereignty, Foreknowledge, the very things that make Him God. What is being spoken of here is a Fundamental truth about why Jesus came to redeem us back into right relationship with God, because we acknowledge that we were wrong and have repented of our sinning against God, He was right, we were wrong. Consequently, our wills have come into alignment with His and as a result we have submitted to His leading us into All righteousness. Therefore we will be in one accord with HIM, JESUS and all the saints for eternity, no complaints, no evil or negative thoughts will ever reside there, because of the Finished work of Calvary. We gave our WILL to Him at the point of our salvation, so there is no taking it back in Glory, we won't even be thinking humanly again, that's what I believe, and as always, I hope this helps, God bless.

[Guest Butero]

2 hours ago, George said:

You've done a great job of dodging the question at hand.      It was a very easy question.  Did God create Lucifer with iniquity?   Because you miss this very first point ... the rest of your position sits on a "theory".

And ... thus you avoid the first question ... and hypothesizing ... a future possibility that the Bible absolutely shows is not going to happen.

So once again ... it's a simple question ... Did God create Lucifer with iniquity?

Lucifer had iniquity on the inside that had not been manifested.  It was discovered later on.  For a long time, he was perfect in his outward behavior.  Free will doesn't adequately address how iniquity came into being otherwise.  The best anyone can come up with is to say it is some kind of great mystery.  If nobody can do better than that, how can they come back and say I am wrong?  

As for Heybro, how do you know I got anything wrong?  Why should I change my mind about anything because someone comes here and chastises me for getting things so mixed up when I am a Royal Member?  I am also an ordained minister.  I have also read the Bible through more than 15 times.  I have also taken Bible courses, read a great deal of writings by early church members.  Where do you get all of this knowledge and insight where you feel you are qualified to rebuke me?  

There are people here saying God created Lucifer knowing he would rebel.  That is fine and acceptable.  We have people saying God uses demonic spirits and evil to accomplish his will, and that is fine and acceptable, even though the way they are using scripture, it would seem to go against God's nature.  We are not talking about some great heresy or even anything in the SOF, which I read very carefully.  We are talking about whether or not God is all powerful, or he lets his creation do things he doesn't want them to do.  I challenge anyone here to explain why God created Lucifer knowing he would fall if that was not his will?  Why would God place a tree in the garden when he knew Adam and Eve would fall as a result of it's fruit if that was not his will?  Why would God let the serpent into the garden if he knew he would tempt Eve and she would fall if that was not his will?  Why would God let the devil continue to cause problems for man if it was not his will?  The idea everything is happening against his will makes God out as very weak, and it goes against scripture.  The Bible is full of instances that prove God knows what will happen, and then it is fulfilled, down to things like Peter denying the Lord 3 times and dying as a result of being crucified.  The Old Testament tells us all Judas will do, and he carries it out like a robot, down to how he dies, and others obey the prophecies down to the amount of money he was given.  That is all by chance?  The very notion is ludicrous.  

[Steve_S]

14 minutes ago, Cletus said:

some good stuff has come out in this thread.  when i read your response ... the sole purpose for being evil... this scripture came to mind:

Isa 54:16  Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

i have heard many interpretations of this scripture... the waster being men of war, the enemy, tyrant rulers, etc.  since you mentioned it, it think it would be good to go ahead and hash it all out.  if it is talking about the enemy then there is a scripture that states it and we should put it in light of whats already been discussed, but if God is speaking of men here, and He can go either way, to deliver into their hand or disappoint them, then there is no scripture.

I am curious as to what you say about this scripture as well as anyone else who would like to comment.

I would be hard pressed to read Satan into this verse, particularly with the context of the chapter (and those chapters before it, which themselves I doubt need explanation), but more specifically this part of this chapter.

Isa 54:14  In righteousness you shall be established; You shall be far from oppression, for you shall not fear; And from terror, for it shall not come near you. 
Isa 54:15  Indeed they shall surely assemble, but not because of Me. Whoever assembles against you shall fall for your sake. 
Isa 54:16  "Behold, I have created the blacksmith Who blows the coals in the fire, Who brings forth an instrument for his work; And I have created the spoiler to destroy. 
Isa 54:17  No weapon formed against you shall prosper, And every tongue which rises against you in judgment You shall condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, And their righteousness is from Me," Says the LORD. 

In short, this chapter as a whole is speaking of the restoration of Israel.

Verse 15 speaks to the fact that whoever comes against Israel at this point (after their restoration) will not be sent by God, and will fall for their sake, which is in stark contrast to a good chunk of the history of Israel, there having been multiple times God used others to judge.

Verse 16 speaks to the fact that God creates the one who builds the weapons (the blacksmith) and the one who uses the weapons (the spoiler/destroyer/waster, depending on what version you prefer - shachath in transliterated Hebrew).

Verse 17 speaks to the fact that no weapons (almost certainly an allusion to the previous verse) "formed against you shall prosper."

This entire sequence (going back several chapters) is certainly worthy of about two or three textbooks worth of study. However, to answer your question, I don't think an argument can be made that this is speaking of Satan, not even if you pull it out of its local context (which there is no reason to do).

[George]

1 minute ago, Butero said:

Lucifer had iniquity on the inside that had not been manifested.  It was discovered later on.  For a long time, he was perfect in his outward behavior.  Free will doesn't adequately address how iniquity came into being otherwise.  The best anyone can come up with is to say it is some kind of great mystery.  If nobody can do better than that, how can they come back and say I am wrong?  

Because the Bible says you're wrong!  God did not create iniquity in Lucifer.  Read the Scriptures once again ... 

Deu 32:4  “The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he.
Psalm 92:15 to declare that the Lord is upright; he is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in him.

To say ... that God created iniquity in Lucifer ... is AGAINST the very CHARACTER of GOD!  And the Scriptures ARE CLEAR ... 

Eze 28:15  Thou wast perfect in all thy ways from the day that thou wast created, until iniquity was found in thee.

8 minutes ago, Butero said:

We are not talking about some great heresy or even anything in the SOF, which I read very carefully

We believe that the 66 books of the Canon, from Genesis to Revelation are the exhaustive, inerrant and inspired word of God.

When we read the Bible says ... that God created Lucifer PERFECT in all his ways.  Then its obvious that ...

 

... created with hidden iniquity ... is against the very text of the Bible.  It's clear as day!  You can't get clearer ... 

You're trying to rationalize with a finite human mind ... Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!

[Guest Butero]

1 minute ago, George said:

Because the Bible says you're wrong!  God did not create iniquity in Lucifer.  Read the Scriptures once again ... 

Deu 32:4  “The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he.
Psalm 92:15 to declare that the Lord is upright; he is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in him.

To say ... that God created iniquity in Lucifer ... is AGAINST the very CHARACTER of GOD!  And the Scriptures ARE CLEAR ... 

Eze 28:15  Thou wast perfect in all thy ways from the day that thou wast created, until iniquity was found in thee.

We believe that the 66 books of the Canon, from Genesis to Revelation are the exhaustive, inerrant and inspired word of God.

When we read the Bible says ... that God created Lucifer PERFECT in all his ways.  Then its obvious that ...

 

... created with hidden iniquity ... is against the very text of the Bible.  It's clear as day!  You can't get clearer ... 

You're trying to rationalize with a finite human mind ... Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!

I believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, and it states that Lucifer was perfect in all his ways, not perfect.  Big difference.  Prove me wrong.  

[Guest Butero]

By the way, if that other scripture applies about God being righteous, you all are guilty of going contrary to it for allowing for God to use evil spirits or evil in general to bring about his will.  

[George]

Just now, Butero said:

I believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, and it states that Lucifer was perfect in all his ways, not perfect.  Big difference.  Prove me wrong.  

Can you prove that God created Lucifer with iniquity?  To say so, is AGAINST the very NATURE of God!   It's not rocket science ... it's simple.   And because your reasoning on this very basic issue ... it's warps the rest of the reasoning you're espousing.  God created everything ... and in creation He said from the beginning .. it is GOOD!