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God's sovereign choice


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5 hours ago, Butero said:

There is more to it than that.  We are in a fallen world because of Lucifer.  Nobody had sinned in heaven before his rebellion, so the conditions were perfect, yet he sinned.  As such, if you are right, there is nothing to stop us from rebelling in heaven after getting there.

 

Brother, I just want to say I love you, but you are looking past the most important detail, the very thing that has saved you for all eternity.  The difference is, Jesus had not yet come to earth.  He had not yet lived out perfection.  He had not yet died and rose again, claiming victory.  He is your savior, my savior, and anyone else who accepts Him.  Jesus did not die for Satan, He died because of Satan.  And when death and sin have been conquered, there will be no more sin or evil, there will be only good.  No chance of rebellion once there is only one side to the coin, only perfection.

God bless

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7 hours ago, Butero said:

Is there scripture that says that, and wouldn't that mean a loss of free will?  If Lucifer was really perfect, and sin had never been done before him, a perfect and sinless creature can get to heaven and by an act of free will rebel.  A million years down the road, they might decide they don't like how God runs things, and turn against him, and get kicked out of heaven.  Either God is fully in control of his creation, and that is where our assurance comes from, or he is not, and we will always have free will to sin, even in the next life.   

Hi Butero,

In Romans 8: 29 we are told that we `..are destined to be conformed to the image of His Son,...`  And in 2 Peter 1: 4 `..you may be partakers of the divine nature..`

So you see bro, we will be like Christ with His nature. He was tempted and could have chosen His own will, however He ALWAYS chose to do the Father`s will. Thus that will be us forever.

Lucifer was tested but failed. The Lord was tested and chose the Father`s will.

regards, Marilyn.

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1 hour ago, Butero said:

No matter how you say it, God told the spirit to go and lie.  It was God looking for anyone to come up with a way to deceive King Ahab.  

Wait until the Lamb opens the 7 seals ... judgment, judgment, judgment!

Same with the Tree Of The Knowledge Of Good And Evil (TOTKOGAE) ... partaking of it ushered in judgment.

Same with the wicked that perished in Noah's flood ... their provoking of judgment.

Same with Ananais and Sapphira ... lying to the Holy Spirit resulted in judgment.

Why does Satan get cast down to earth when there are vast alternative areas of Universe to chose from?  As punishment because the fall of Creation into corruption and decay is related to ungodliness, to which the ungodly will be given over.

2Pe 3:7
(7)  but the heavens that now are, and the earth, by the same word have been stored up for fire, being reserved against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

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4 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

Wait until the Lamb opens the 7 seals ... judgment, judgment, judgment!

Same with the Tree Of The Knowledge Of Good And Evil (TOTKOGAE) ... partaking of it ushered in judgment.

Same with the wicked that perished in Noah's flood ... their provoking of judgment.

Same with Ananais and Sapphira ... lying to the Holy Spirit resulted in judgment.

Why does Satan get cast down to earth when there are vast alternative areas of Universe to chose from?  As punishment because the fall of Creation into corruption and decay is related to ungodliness, to which the ungodly will be given over.

2Pe 3:7
(7)  but the heavens that now are, and the earth, by the same word have been stored up for fire, being reserved against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Shabbat shalom, Michael37.

HaSatan doesn't get cast out of some "Heaven"; he gets thrown out of THE SKY to the earth. His WINGS ARE CLIPPED! Revelation 12 is basically a history lesson in the form of a vision that gives the background for this grounding of haSatan.

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26 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, Michael37.

HaSatan doesn't get cast out of some "Heaven"; he gets thrown out of THE SKY to the earth. His WINGS ARE CLIPPED! Revelation 12 is basically a history lesson in the form of a vision that gives the background for this grounding of haSatan.

Yeah, cast down to earth though, Retro, as if there's no where else. But then he gets chained and cast into the abyss which is sealed to stop him deceiving the nations for quite a while...so PTL for that.

Rev 12:7-9
(7)  And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels going forth to war with the dragon; and the dragon warred and his angels;
(8)  And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven.
(9)  And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.

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I'm sorry that you have taken the position to defend yourself Butero to resort to telling me of all your qualifications, though impressive, doesn't affect my stance. The issue here is that we should never take our eyes off Jesus, The Author and Finisher of our faith. I will just finish my input in and on this thread by quoting, 1 Timothy 1: 12, " For this reason I also suffer these things; neverthelessless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that what I have committed to Him against that Day. With that, I bid you adieu, and as always, God bless.

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Years ago , I listened to Oliver Greene on his radio program address these matters, and it stuck with me. He maintained that God has a Grand Plan for His universe and this plan has a negative side .He USES Satan to fulfill the negative part of His Plan.It helped me in my understanding of some of these issues being raised .There will come a time when all of our questions will be answered .In the meantime,I’m going to give God the benefit of every doubt and it will become evident that He knew EXACTLY what He was doing and everything He did was for a good that was beyond our present understanding.

Edited by Blood Bought 1953
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6 hours ago, Butero said:
6 hours ago, maryjayne said:

the spirit offered to lie, and God gave him permission.

No matter how you say it, God told the spirit to go and lie.  It was God looking for anyone to come up with a way to deceive King Ahab.  

2THESSALONIANS.2:1-12 (NKJV) = The Great Apostasy

2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

.

Edited by discipler777
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21 hours ago, Butero said:

 He created Lucifer with hidden iniquity on the inside.  It was discovered later, but it had to be part of his makeup all along.  

Your mind has given place to lie- a perversion which has no created place...  However the obedience 'IS'

Eph 4:27

27 Neither give place to the devil.
KJV

 

21 hours ago, Butero said:

When God created Lucifer, do you believe he knew one day he would rebel, or did it take God by surprise? 

The devil created iniquity out of thin air, meaning so could any Christian after getting to heaven.  That means a million years from now, a Christian can rebel and get kicked out of heaven.  

Again the error you are making is giving created essence to evil... As George has pointed out God made Lucifer perfect!

21 hours ago, Butero said:

Then how did God create Lucifer perfect and was unable to keep him perfect? 

Perfection 'IS' God and Lucifer wanted to rebel against such...

20 hours ago, Butero said:

Lucifer, if he was created perfect, should not have rebelled, but he did.   Sin didn't exist before him, yet he sinned.  There would be nothing to stop any of us from making it to heaven and getting kicked out as he did. 

The rebellion has no place in the created essence God has made -that's the point! So God had to make/create a place for this

Matt 25:41

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
KJV

 

19 hours ago, Butero said:

There is more to it than that.  We are in a fallen world because of Lucifer.  Nobody had sinned in heaven before his rebellion, so the conditions were perfect, yet he sinned.  As such, if you are right, there is nothing to stop us from rebelling in heaven after getting there.  

We are in a fallen world because of our individual choice- all men individually choose to sin by the very nature they were born with... this nature has come to us by death and separation from God...

19 hours ago, Butero said:

What do you base that on?  Lucifer existed in a heaven that was perfect, and everyone is claiming he was perfect.  If he could fall, anyone could fall if God is not in complete control.  

The Bible tells us Lucifer took his eyes off God and placed them upon the created things of self; he was enamored by his created attributes so that as he utilized them his desire was perverted toward the created essence more than to God Who has created all these things that he was!

Ezek 28:16

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
KJV

 

19 hours ago, Butero said:

Of course they are not, because they are God's elect.  Lucifer couldn't have fallen unless God intended things to happen as they did, because he is all powerful.  

Because you have given place to lies... you have given created essence to the perversion of truth... Because God 'IS' truth Lucifer's only way to rebel was to form the first lie within himself that he could be God... we see the impossible of this by the very dependence of lie upon the very existence of truth as 'the necessary'... without truth no lie could exist and for the lie to even begin truth must first be!

17 hours ago, Cletus said:

some good stuff has come out in this thread.  when i read your response ... the sole purpose for being evil... this scripture came to mind:

Isa 54:16  Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

The understanding of this is in The Persons of God Themselves... In The Essence of Being that has always existed God has created b/Being apart from Himself in this- we and angels have being unique to the very individual and class of being with responsibility by begin to Him Who has never began.... no matter whether lie or truth is followed this reality cannot be made (not to be) for God 'IS' God and nothing can change this reality.... that is why God says not to give place to the devil for there is no place within him of God any longer- he 'IS' lie a non created substance depending upon the existence of truth to pervert... the created place where God removes Himself with the exception of His wrath is called hell, the lake of fire, and the lie is sealed in the possession of being totally separate from God without end...  

16 hours ago, Butero said:

Lucifer had iniquity on the inside that had not been manifested. 

You have given place for lie and therefore you stand in the place of lie... reasoning in the lie... for God says

Ezek 28:15

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
KJV


this is saying Lucifer 'his being' through action of personal source was perfect... the iniquity was formed by his own error of taking his eyes off God to Whom he was to lead worship toward by the very created essence of his being and attributes given in his being to heighten the understanding of other angels in God Magnificence 'As Creator of'... in his idolatry satan fell from created purpose as all who follow and give place to him... 

16 hours ago, Butero said:

I believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, and it states that Lucifer was perfect in all his ways, not perfect.  Big difference.  Prove me wrong.  

apple beget apples; dogs beget dogs; people beget people; perfect beget perfect... the perversion of lie which has no created place originally now has hell a complete separation of God (except for His Wrath) eternally- for it has nothing of God by being lie! Satan began this rebellion through lie which has zero substance of God in it and it is seen in your statement perfect beget imperfect a total illogical impossibility -> unless you give place to lie~ then you can give it whatever pleases in one's own mind called confusion... By the subtle power of lie that which could never be by truth can now be possible only by the substance of perverted truth called lie.... 

16 hours ago, Butero said:

By the way, if that other scripture applies about God being righteous, you all are guilty of going contrary to it for allowing for God to use evil spirits or evil in general to bring about his will.  

If you can follow the reality of lie and it's nonconsistency in anything causing confusion in all that it possesses... you surely can understand that the lie must be put from you in order to clear the mind to understand the pure truth that exist- no matter the lie that comes against it... God can send anything He has created, no matter the individual choice of that sent being, and the outcome on the other side will be unchanged- truth will always be, by essence, be truth and lie will be lie~ as light is to darkness so lie is to truth... God using His created beings, no matter their individual choice of truth or lie, changes nothing of God and the eternal realities that embody Our Perfect Holy Righteous Creator.... only those giving place to satan and lie cannot come to the truth...

15 hours ago, Butero said:

When God spoke of creating everything good, that didn't include angels.  They already existed.  

This statement is in direct conflict with what God has said here:

Gen 2:1-3

2 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
KJV
Although God has not told us when He actually did create the angels... this statement above is certainly conclusive of all created essence! To exclude angels from is to do so other than The Word of God!
Which would be, as to source, what exactly?

 

15 hours ago, Butero said:

That is how this all began.  It is all tied in together.  God creates everyone knowing all they will ever do, good or bad.   He knows who will be saved and who will be lost.  Each person's actions directly effect others, so all details must work according to plan, not just because of little incidental things, but to bring about Bible prophecy.  All the scriptures dealing with the elect are based on that idea.  God created and chose who he would reveal his Son to, and knew who would continue and who would fall away.  He created Judas Iscariot to be the betrayer of the Lord.  You can't get much more evil than that, so why is it such a stretch to say he created Lucifer to be his adversary?  It all ties in together.  

The beginning was sanctified by God and after this sanctification: the fall of Lucifer and then man to the end of Great White Throne (the light completely separated from darkness) and all darkeness will be eradicated from ever being … and the Word of God in the eternal state is there will be no more darkness Rev 22:5

2 Peter 3:10-14

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
KJV
 

Edited by enoob57
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Let's look at this differently.

Jealousy. All the Angels had God's attention. Then the appearance of man came on the scene. God walked in the garden with them. The Angels ceased to have full attention. Satan rebelled with jealousy.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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