Off topic from: God's Sovereign Choice

[discipler777]

2 hours ago, George said:

On 12/21/2018 at 7:17 PM, George said:

I believe the following Scripture/Word of God likely applies to Martin Luther and other "Christians" of his ilk who, once saved, go and willfully/intentionally sin or do evil-works of Lawlessness and unrighteousness unrepentantly = may become unsaved, .......

This is my thoughts to this passage.   A unique passage that make take some time to understand ... in Psalms 69 is a Messianic Psalm and it says this ...

Psa 69:28  Let them be blotted out of the book of the living; let them not be enrolled among the righteous.

When you studied this passage out, it's the same Psalm that is used to replace Judas in Acts 1:20, “For it is written in the Book of Psalms, “‘May his camp become desolate, and let there be no one to dwell in it’; and “‘Let another take his office.’

Psa 69:25  May their camp be a desolation; let no one dwell in their tents.

It seems that Judas was in the Kingdom .. and yet his name was blotted out ... how?  So let's explore my HYPOTHETICAL reasoning...

How does someone who is a baby suddenly find themselves in the Kingdom? 

For example in 1 Samuel 12:23  But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.”

This is where we get the idea of age of accountability.  So those who die before the "age of accountability" are thought to be in the Kingdom.  How does this happen ... if they never accepted Yeshua?  So this is my HYPOTHETICAL understanding of this ... 

BEFORE someone is even born, they were ALREADY in the Lamb's book of life!  For God wishes that ALL come to SALVATION!

Once a person dies, they are now at the position ... is their name blotted out of the Lamb's book of life -- or do they remain with the book!

As I look at the holiness and righteousness of God and realize that He wills that ALL come to salvation, how does this actually take place?   How does someone who passes away before they even have an opportunity to really choose find their way into the Kingdom?   While there's NO SCRIPTURAL evidence to prove my position without a hint of doubt, this is how I reconcile major conflicting passages in the Bible realizing who God is. 

You can take it for what it is ... or leave it ... I won't try to defend this, but this is how I reconcile this particular problem.

My thoughts are simply this .. that everyone is WRITTEN in the Lamb's book of life before they are even born ... and once they pass away ... is when their name is finally blotted out.

Take it for what it is ... a THEORY!     

No matter if you agree or disagree with me ... it's a non-salvational issue ... and not a point worthy of a debate.  Just a thought that may help you realize something you never thought about before.

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REVELATION.20:11-15 (NKJV) = The Great White Throne Judgment

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

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God sees in one moment every person's life from start to finish or from birth till death. IOW, the Book of Life of REV.20 that will be opened by Jesus Christ/God already has the names of believers who will be saved from the lake of fire and brimstone, eg the 12 Apostles, the 109 disciples(ACTS.1:15), Stephen the first martyr, etc. 

As per the Word of God in the books above, everyone will be judged according to his/her works. So, I doubt Martin Luther is among the names found in the Book of Life because of his willful sins/evil-works/Law-breaking done unrepentantly. This also applies to some of Martin Luther's students and followers who did or do or will do the same as him.

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1JOHN.3:4-9 = Sin and the Child of God

4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

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Edited December 23, 2018 by discipler777

[George]

@discipler777  The main thing is to focus on ourselves ... and reserve judgment to whom judgment is given.    As Paul said, "2Co 13:5  Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!"

I truly don't want to be talking to any of the Saints in glory ... and having to explain to them how we misaligned them ... when they weren't even alive to defend themselves.    

[discipler777]

17 minutes ago, George said:

@discipler777  The main thing is to focus on ourselves ... and reserve judgment to whom judgment is given.    As Paul said, "2Co 13:5  Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!"

I truly don't want to be talking to any of the Saints in glory ... and having to explain to them how we misaligned them ... when they weren't even alive to defend themselves.    

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HEBREWS.12:14-17 (NKJV) = 14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: 15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; 16 lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. 17 For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.

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1CORINTHIANS.2:15-16 = 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

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Edited December 23, 2018 by discipler777

[George]

2 minutes ago, discipler777 said:

1CORINTHIANS.2:15-16 = 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

Bro, I get it.  I'm just suggesting the simple fact .. the main thing is checking ourselves.  We walk a fine line when we start criciticizing as it's borderline slandering if the charges presented are not given with the complete set of facts.  I never want to be considered a slanderer or a person that attack the body of Christ.  Nothing more...nothing less.  Take it for what it is. 

[Blood Bought 1953]

 

Except/that/Satan’s/sins/ are / not / under/the/Blood——- mine are!  Ain’t Grace great? It not only saves me, it stirs up love inside me that causes me to want to please God .Judaizers do not understand that the second one sees he is free to do what he wants, his wants have a way of being changed.They are oblivious/ as/ to/ how / God / works——- they can’t imagine God Without a whip in His hand to keep us in line.They just can’t imagine a person being shown Grace without that person using it as a license to sin.They reveal a/ lot/ about/themselves/and do not realize it.       //////////////.    I know how to use this thing too! ///////////

[discipler777]

1CORINTHIANS.10:1-13 (NKJV) = Old Testament Examples

10:1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. 7 And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.”8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; 9 nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; 10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. 13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

[Montana Marv]

10 hours ago, discipler777 said:

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HEBREWS.10:26-31 (NKJV) = 26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “TheLord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

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GALATIANS.5:19-21 = 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

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There is a big difference between "before and after" being saved wrt willful sins/evil-works/Law-breaking committed unrepentantly.

Saul of Tarsus was a persecuting murderer of early Jewish Christians before he was saved. After being saved by Jesus Christ Personally, Saul became Paul and completely stopped going around persecuting and murdering early Jewish Christians. Instead, he went around saving Gentiles with Christ's gospel. IOW, Paul stopped remaining as willful-sinning or evil-working Saul. Misguided and once-saved Christians who remain as willful sinners/evil-workers/Law-breakers or who unrepentantly go and willfully sin some more or go(cf JOHN.5:14 & 8:11) and willfully sin the same sin repeatedly are like Lucifer becoming Satan.

You are taking this Scripture out of context.  The one Sacrifice of the New Covenant is greater or superior to the many sacrifices of the old covenant. (This is referencing those going through the desert)  Now which of these sins listed of yours is not covered by the blood of Jesus.  It is all about a relationship with Jesus.  Do you give your First Fruits to the Lord?  Do you tithe?  Are you Cursed, Do you rob God (Mal 3:8-11).  Gen 4:4 - But Abel brought fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock.

Now there is the Obedience side of the equation, are your finances Cursed, do you serve Mammon and not God.  If you really serve God, you give to God; if you do not give to God, do you really serve Him, and are Cursed and thus willfully continue to Sin.  Did you list the god of Mammon in your list.  Is one willfully not giving to God or back to God.

Now do you see the point, which willful sin being committed is worse than another.  They are all  idolatry of some sort.  I do not do those sins listed in Hebrews, but I can willfully do these other sins not listed.  Where does Forgiveness come into play, I can call my brother a fool and be in judgment.  Does one rob God of finances, and become Cursed, or of other relationship issues.

So if someone (a believer) continues to and knowingly robs God and is unrepentant of this sin, Will they inherit the Kingdom of God?  How far do you want to go.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

[Mike Mclees]

The word of God will be our Epitaph. It is written so we may understand that no man on earth can live a righteous life that pleases God since the fall of man except he comes to Christ. Since man ate of the tree he has the knowledge of good and evil. Their is no such thing as many choices. There is only two. It was said the we are born already in the lambs book of life. You can say that if you want still when one comes of age and determining between good and evil it becomes as I just said. Two choices. We either recognize Christ and choose life or choose not and live a life of death.

Innocence comes to and end. Then one needs to make a choice. This is simple. We don't have to debate all the nuts and bolts of it. Less a man comes to Christ as a child he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 

Be blessed 

Edited December 25, 2018 by Mike Mclees

[discipler777]

14 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

On 12/23/2018 at 1:13 PM, discipler777 said:

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HEBREWS.10:26-31 (NKJV) = 26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “TheLord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

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GALATIANS.5:19-21 = 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

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There is a big difference between "before and after" being saved wrt willful sins/evil-works/Law-breaking committed unrepentantly.

Saul of Tarsus was a persecuting murderer of early Jewish Christians before he was saved. After being saved by Jesus Christ Personally, Saul became Paul and completely stopped going around persecuting and murdering early Jewish Christians. Instead, he went around saving Gentiles with Christ's gospel. IOW, Paul stopped remaining as willful-sinning or evil-working Saul. Misguided and once-saved Christians who remain as willful sinners/evil-workers/Law-breakers or who unrepentantly go and willfully sin some more or go(cf JOHN.5:14 & 8:11) and willfully sin the same sin repeatedly are like Lucifer becoming Satan.

You are taking this Scripture out of context.  The one Sacrifice of the New Covenant is greater or superior to the many sacrifices of the old covenant. (This is referencing those going through the desert)  Now which of these sins listed of yours is not covered by the blood of Jesus.  It is all about a relationship with Jesus.  Do you give your First Fruits to the Lord?  Do you tithe?  Are you Cursed, Do you rob God (Mal 3:8-11).  Gen 4:4 - But Abel brought fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock.

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1CORINTHIANS.6:9-11 (NKJV) = 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

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ROMANS.6:1-4 = Dead to Sin, Alive to God

6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

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For Gentile Christians(GC), as per ACTS.15:19-29, there are essential/non-burdensome and non-essential/burdensome laws of God, the latter of which they may keep or not keep at their discretion or depending on their circumstances, eg the laws of circumcision, clean/kosher foods and tithing.(cf: ROMANS.14:1-4) 

ROMANS.7:12 & 7 say that God's Law, as found in the Old Testament, is good, holy, just and gives knowledge of what  are sins/evil-works. This includes the non-essential/burdensome laws of Moses. So, married GC couples should circumcise their male babies. Circumcision has some benefits, eg curb over-population and sexual immorality. The uncircumcised can behave like sex maniacs, eg over-populated China and India. If possible and not-a-burden, they should keep the law of clean/kosher foods.

They should also tithe about 3% of their income to support their Church, pastors, missionaries, evangelists, charities, etc, in order to be blessed by God. 10% of income applied only when the Temple/Church was also the national government. OTOH, GC who are widows, refugees, crime victims, destitute, physically disabled or mentally disabled should exempt themselves from the law of tithing.

In comparison, at ACTS.21:20-25, God required Jewish Christians to continue to keep ALL of His Law or Moses Law, as many laws as possible, because it was not a burden to them since they had done so from childhood.

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IN ESSENTIALS UNITY, IN NON-ESSENTIALS LIBERTY, IN ALL THINGS JESUS CHRIST.

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Edited December 24, 2018 by discipler777

[Blood Bought 1953]

 

“ Those trying to be justified by the Law are indebted to keep the WHOLE LAW.”

“If you break  one law you are guilty of breaking them all”

If you choose to be justified by Law, you are “ fallen from Grave and the death of Jesus benefits you nothing”

You are “ severed from Christ.”

Why keep fooling around with “ do do this” and “ don’t do that ?” Gentiles must do this, Jews must do that . This applies to this guy, the other guy must not do anything that is hard to do......Just like Jesus said to the Pharisees of His day (paraphrasing).....One would think you guys were Moses, the way you keep making up Laws!

Your custom-  made religion is way too complicated for me.Paul said simply believing his Gospel and you will be saved.....it’s a gospel of Grace—— I reccomend it to all.Put your faith in the Shed Bloodof Christ and the Gospel That has “ the POWER to save......” Ignore the weak Gospel and the weak blood promoted by those that in their heart-of- hearts do not trust the Death of our Savior to save us.There apparently is some “ mop- up” work to be done—- the Blood alone is inadequate .The must really roll their eyes when  Christians sing “ Nothing But The Blood”.Hypocrites should rip their song books apart.