wingnut- Posted January 2, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 39 Topic Count: 101 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,673 Content Per Day: 1.31 Reputation: 7,358 Days Won: 67 Joined: 04/22/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted January 2, 2019 4 minutes ago, Larry H said: Good point, however if it were a physical kingdom as the majority of Christian believe in our future, and Christ the king ruled over the world, then there would be nothing not to believe. It would be rather evident. What was the garden of eden? Only two people in that equation, yet rebellion still occurred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_S Posted January 2, 2019 Group: Servant Followers: 25 Topic Count: 275 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 5,208 Content Per Day: 1.00 Reputation: 1,893 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/02/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted January 2, 2019 Just now, Larry H said: Good point, however if it were a physical kingdom as the majority of Christian believe in our future, and Christ the king ruled over the world, then there would be nothing not to believe. It would be rather evident. I'm not sure what you mean by "nothing not to believe it" here, could you elucidate on that please? Quote The point of the email I think was to show the kingdom is only spiritual in nature. And we are living in it now with all its blessing, the victory is over. There are a multitude of scriptures that are incredibly counter to this specific theology. I think it's fine to start with just one, though, to keep things manageable in length. Rev 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." How is such a thing possible if the there is no future physical kingdom? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry H Posted January 2, 2019 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 119 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 20 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/17/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 2, 2019 18 minutes ago, Steve_S said: I'm not sure what you mean by "nothing not to believe it" here, could you elucidate on that please? There are a multitude of scriptures that are incredibly counter to this specific theology. I think it's fine to start with just one, though, to keep things manageable in length. Rev 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." How is such a thing possible if the there is no future physical kingdom? The kingdom was already in operation when the letter was penned. Revelation 1:9 I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. It was possible when using a literal translation like YLT Rev 1:7 Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen! Young's Literal Translation Land of Jerusalem Compare Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. According to the Full Preterist theology, and may scholars Revelation was written prior to the fall of Jerusalem [perhaps 63] and the destruction of its temple, [Who is to come] . The Parousia of Christ in Divine judgement of the Nation in AD 70. Matthew 23 Matthew 24:1-3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted January 2, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,824 Content Per Day: 2.41 Reputation: 2,753 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 2, 2019 20 minutes ago, Steve_S said: I'm not sure what you mean by "nothing not to believe it" here, could you elucidate on that please? There are a multitude of scriptures that are incredibly counter to this specific theology. I think it's fine to start with just one, though, to keep things manageable in length. Rev 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." How is such a thing possible if the there is no future physical kingdom? Workout saying anything pro or against, only in the spirit of inquiry. Yes I read Rev:1,7 but as it is plain , I won't bring into it, something to "suplement it" , Things as "a physical Kingdom", or what else, what else could it be? It one think to inquire about something, and another thing to suggest something and asking to be proven wrong, so to speak. Examining what you suggest the question is how those who pierced him will be able to see him , then he must have come when they were still alive... The Gospel was preach to them... Some of them must have seen him in his glory, the way Stephen discribe him, or Paul... Or when the disciples heal the people in the name of Jesus... As saying : Jesus is here reach out and touch him. "If two of you gather in my name "I will be there with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_S Posted January 2, 2019 Group: Servant Followers: 25 Topic Count: 275 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 5,208 Content Per Day: 1.00 Reputation: 1,893 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/02/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted January 2, 2019 1 minute ago, Larry H said: Revelation 1:9 I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. It was possible when using a literal translation like YLT Rev 1:7 Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen! Young's Literal Translation This doesn't at all abrogate the fact that in multiple instances a physical return of Christ is specified and indeed a new physical kingdom. Firstly, using the YLT in this instance doesn't at all negate the idea that Jesus will physically come with the clouds. Rev 1:7 Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen! Rev 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. This is a literal statement. 12 minutes ago, Larry H said: According to the Full Preterist theology, and may scholars Revelation was written prior to the fall of Jerusalem [perhaps 63] and the destruction of its temple, [Who is to come] . The Parousia of Christ in Divine judgement of the Nation in AD 70. Matthew 23 Matthew 24:1-3 What scholars specifically? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry H Posted January 2, 2019 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 119 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 20 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/17/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 2, 2019 27 minutes ago, Steve_S said: This doesn't at all abrogate the fact that in multiple instances a physical return of Christ is specified and indeed a new physical kingdom. Firstly, using the YLT in this instance doesn't at all negate the idea that Jesus will physically come with the clouds. Rev 1:7 Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen! Rev 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. This is a literal statement. What scholars specifically? Perhaps this can be considered Isaiah 19:1 An oracle concerning Egypt: See, the LORD rides on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt. The idols of Egypt tremble before him, and the hearts of the Egyptians melt within them. The idea of a cloud coming represented divine Judgment on a Nation the OT. The Lord is riding on a cloud to Judge Egypt as it trembles. Revelation 1:7 "Look, he is coming with the clouds" and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him. Matthew 26:63 But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." 64 "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." It seems it was made manifest by Jerusalem's destruction that Jesus Christ was the Messiah of God. I will send you a list of the scholars you asked for. Thanks for the interchange perhaps we can pick this up tomorrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discipler777 Posted January 2, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 606 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 102 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/25/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted January 2, 2019 (edited) 58 minutes ago, Larry H said: According to the Full Preterist theology, . 1CORINTHIANS.15:20-28 (NKJV) = The Last Enemy Destroyed 20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.”But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. . His Coming will be accompanied by the resurrection of dead Christian believers. So, the 2nd Coming of the Lord/God Jesus Christ to earth will be a physical Coming, ie not a Spirit'ual or invisible or unseen Coming - because from 33AD until today, dead Christian believers have yet to be resurrected by God. . Edited January 2, 2019 by discipler777 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry H Posted January 2, 2019 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 119 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 20 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/17/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 2, 2019 9 hours ago, Larry H said: Perhaps this can be considered Isaiah 19:1 An oracle concerning Egypt: See, the LORD rides on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt. The idols of Egypt tremble before him, and the hearts of the Egyptians melt within them. The idea of a cloud coming represented divine Judgment on a Nation the OT. The Lord is riding on a cloud to Judge Egypt as it trembles. Revelation 1:7 "Look, he is coming with the clouds" and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him. Matthew 26:63 But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." 64 "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." It seems it was made manifest by Jerusalem's destruction that Jesus Christ was the Messiah of God. I will send you a list of the scholars you asked for. Thanks for the interchange perhaps we can pick this up tomorrow Good Morning Steve The list you requested Irenaeus' Quote (Used as Grounds for Late Date Theory) "We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the Revelation. For ‘he’ [John?] or ‘it’ [Revelation?] was seen . . . towards the end of Domitian’s reign." (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3) A list of advocates and scholars, preterist and none preterist alike who hold the early dating of Revelation. https://www.preteristarchive.com/BibleStudies/ApocalypseCommentaries/Dating/Early/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry H Posted January 2, 2019 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 119 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 20 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/17/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 2, 2019 10 hours ago, discipler777 said: . 1CORINTHIANS.15:20-28 (NKJV) = The Last Enemy Destroyed 20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.”But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. . His Coming will be accompanied by the resurrection of dead Christian believers. So, the 2nd Coming of the Lord/God Jesus Christ to earth will be a physical Coming, ie not a Spirit'ual or invisible or unseen Coming - because from 33AD until today, dead Christian believers have yet to be resurrected by God. . Luke 17:20 Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21 nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you." Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, On Paul's letter to the Corinthians Good point ....This is where Partial and Full preterist part company when it comes to the resurrection mentioned in scripture. From the full preterist perspective it may be important to know that the worst enemy is in truth spiritual death, That is separation from God. And this Christ has conquered. This is the better resurrection mentioned in Hebrews chapter 11. Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear. And that, "I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable". 1 Corinthians 15:50 Did Jesus promise a physical materialistic paradise, or did He bring about peace with God. Romans 5:1 John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. 25 I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. John 20:31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. Don't get me wrong there is going to be an afterlife following our sojourn here on earth. I'm only bringing out what I believe is the intent of the full Preterist camp. And perhaps in fact the meaning of those who penned the scriptures I.e. Apostles of the New Testament. The victory is over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discipler777 Posted January 3, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 606 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 102 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/25/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted January 3, 2019 (edited) 20 hours ago, Larry H said: Good point ....This is where Partial and Full preterist part company when it comes to the resurrection mentioned in scripture. From the full preterist perspective it may be important to know that the worst enemy is in truth spiritual death, That is separation from God. And this Christ has conquered. This is the better resurrection mentioned in Hebrews chapter 11. Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear. And that, "I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable". 1 Corinthians 15:50 Did Jesus promise a physical materialistic paradise, or did He bring about peace with God. Romans 5:1 John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. 25 I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. John 20:31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. . Being born-again of the Spirit when a person comes into faith in Jesus Christ is very different from being resurrected by the Spirit of God after a believer dies on earth physically. Are you also saying that Jesus Christ was not resurrected.? Preterists seem to be mixing up the physical and Spirit'ual wrt the kingdom of God and resurrection. The Lord/God Jesus Christ has been abiding Spirit'ually or invisibly in the hearts of Christian-believers who listen or heed His Word/Law/commandments(JOHN.14:15-24) = "the kingdom of God is within you." The Lord/God Jesus Christ will be coming back again to earth physically or visibly, to resurrect/rapture His believers into the clouds and exact vengeance upon unbelievers left on earth.(1THESS.4:16-17) After the 7-year Great Tribulation for unbelievers when the earth will be destroyed, He will then create a new earth for His people to live peacefully and joyfully in the new Millennium.(REV.21:1 & 20:4, ISAIAH.2:4 & 11:6 & 65:25) In the end, the Book of Life will then be opened to judge believers and unbelievers. This will usher in the actual kingdom of God in heaven for believers who will then be able to see God the Father face-to-face.(cf EXODUS.33:20, JOHN.1:18 & 5:37). . JOHN.18:36 (NKJV) = 36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.” . Edited January 3, 2019 by discipler777 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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