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PRETERISM THE NEW FRONTIER


Larry H

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3 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

Brother, we need the Holy Spirit to be able to rightly divide scripture.  I am out of touch with what is going in Messianism these days, whether there are those among them who are not yet born again or who believe in cessationism (that the things of the Spirit ceased after the early church).  We MUST be born again to be able to see the kingdom of heaven.....and after that receive the Holy Spirit.  The Holy Spirit opens and reveals, the scriptures to our understanding with little intellectual effort on our part...when we are like little children just receiving and believing them.   It is the Father's good pleasure to reveal truth to little children and hide it from the wise and learned.  It's often our carnal mind that gets in the way of being able to receive His simple understandings.  When our own little grey cells start getting too involved it is then we are wresting the scriptures.....leading to wrong conclusions and a dead end.  It's impossible to perceive the things of the spirit without the Holy Spirit...our own minds are of flesh not spirit.

I am hearing more and more of those in the Hebrew roots movement who want to do away with some part of the NT scriptures because they get in the way of their pet theologies...either Paul or the book of Hebrews.  It's hard to think of anything more dangerous, not to mention presumptuous, and it will not end well for those who do that.  We are supposed to be instructed and corrected by those very scriptures they want to do away with, rather than we presume to correct the truth, the word of God.  So it just makes me wonder what on earth is going on in that movement these days.  It makes me VERY frightened for their souls, especially for Jews who might be caught up in these kinds of deceptions....it's tragic.

I just want to add...that without FAITH it is impossible to please God......faith is not of our own, it is of the Holy Spirit.  It's something more than mental belief......mental belief needs to be "helped" by the Helper/Paraclete.  Like the man whose son was possessed by a demon and he said, "Lord I believe, HELP my unbelief".

Hebrew Root Movement  

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

I would guess a mistaken rendition of these verses is a Hebrew Root Movement I.e. standing "until heaven and earth disappear" A literal interpretation of the heavens and earth gave substance to the HRM theology.  But if the heavens and earth mentioned symbolically represented the "Mosaic Covenant world of Israel", it made common sense to the listening audience in the first century.

"Sadly many Bible students are unfamiliar with apocalyptic, and figurative language" 

"Deuteronomy 8:19 And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the LORD thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish.

How did God testify against them? With the heaven and earth representing the Law.

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

What records against them? Certainly not the physical heavens and earth, but rather the law:"

Deuteronomy 31:26-28 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it (the law) may be there for a witness against thee. 27 For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death? 28 Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.

Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear

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32 minutes ago, Larry H said:

Hebrew Root Movement  

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

I would guess a mistaken rendition of these verses is a Hebrew Root Movement I.e. standing "until heaven and earth disappear" A literal interpretation of the heavens and earth gave substance to the HRM theology.  But if the heavens and earth mentioned symbolically represented the "Mosaic Covenant world of Israel", it made common sense to the listening audience in the first century.

"Sadly many Bible students are unfamiliar with apocalyptic, and figurative language" 

"Deuteronomy 8:19 And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the LORD thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish.

How did God testify against them? With the heaven and earth representing the Law.

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

What records against them? Certainly not the physical heavens and earth, but rather the law:"

Deuteronomy 31:26-28 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it (the law) may be there for a witness against thee. 27 For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death? 28 Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.

Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear

 

Fallen earth and heaven witnessing against those who are still likewise fallen, not saved.....unredeemed creation being still under a curse at this present time, in a fallen state.  There will be no need for the Law in the new heavens and new earth.  New heaven and new earth will be renewed and freed from the curse.  There won't be any unrighteous/fallen left to judge/curse at that time, because they will have already been judged and thrown into the lake of fire.   Any who are born again of the Spirit are new creatures.....no longer fallen but a new spiritual creation (except for our physical body, which redemption still awaits and is promised..good as done), and therefore no longer part of fallen creation (heaven and earth) or under the Law....but already counted as citizens of the new heaven/earth...eternal, world without end.

1Ti 1:5-11

Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;

Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

For we ourselves passing through this present temporal earth and heaven, we need to decide which we are under....either we are under the Law or we are under the blood of Christ, but we can't be under both. 

Isa 43:18

Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old.

Are we born again righteous followers of Yeshua, or are we still disobedient unrighteous sinners under the curse of the Law and its ministry of death?

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3 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

 

Fallen earth and heaven witnessing against those who are still likewise fallen, not saved.....unredeemed creation being still under a curse at this present time, in a fallen state.  There will be no need for the Law in the new heavens and new earth.  New heaven and new earth will be renewed and freed from the curse.  There won't be any unrighteous/fallen left to judge/curse at that time, because they will have already been judged and thrown into the lake of fire.   Any who are born again of the Spirit are new creatures.....no longer fallen but a new spiritual creation (except for our physical body, which redemption still awaits and is promised..good as done), and therefore no longer part of fallen creation (heaven and earth) or under the Law....but already counted as citizens of the new heaven/earth...eternal, world without end.

1Ti 1:5-11

Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;

Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

For we ourselves passing through this present temporal earth and heaven, we need to decide which we are under....either we are under the Law or we are under the blood of Christ, but we can't be under both. 

Isa 43:18

Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old.

Are we born again righteous followers of Yeshua, or are we still disobedient unrighteous sinners under the curse of the Law and its ministry of death?

Let all heaven and earth Praise the LORD .    The breaker of the chains of bondage , the freer of men .   Christ the KING .    Let all eyes , hearts , minds , be stayed upon HIM .

And be on guard in these days , for we must always remember the flesh profits nothing .  YE must be born again .   All else is sinking sand .

YOU ARE loved my sister .   Let no man point to Rome , let no man point to a gentile, let no man point to a jew .   POINT ONLY TO CHRIST and let all the people praise His name .

And you know what the beauty of it all is ,   by grace for years I have sang this song ,  and the sounding of it never gets weary ,

IT ONLY INCREASES the joy and the hope and the peace .   HE whose mind is stayed upon the LORD shall have great peace .

For no matter what comes against them , no drought , no east wind , no scorching sun ,   shall dry that plant .

FOR it is planted by the LORD and HE supplies its root to leaf with all the life giving water it needs to not only maintain in the harshest drought

but keep increasing and bearing fruit .     OH Their is no joy like the JOY of the LORD and let all joy in the salvation of OUR LORD . 

Edited by frienduff thaylorde
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32 minutes ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

Let all heaven and earth Praise the LORD .    The breaker of the chains of bondage , the freer of men .   Christ the KING .    Let all eyes , hearts , minds , be stayed upon HIM .

And be on guard in these days , for we must always remember the flesh profits nothing .  YE must be born again .   All else is sinking sand .

YOU ARE loved my sister .   Let no man point to Rome , let no man point to a gentile, let no man point to a jew .   POINT ONLY TO CHRIST and let all the people praise His name .

And you know what the beauty of it all is ,   by grace for years I have sang this song ,  and the sounding of it never gets weary ,

IT ONLY INCREASES the joy and the hope and the peace .   HE whose mind is stayed upon the LORD shall have great peace .

For no matter what comes against them , no drought , no east wind , no scorching sun ,   shall dry that plant .

FOR it is planted by the LORD and HE supplies its root to leaf with all the life giving water it needs to not only maintain in the harshest drought

but keep increasing and bearing fruit .     OH Their is no joy like the JOY of the LORD and let all joy in the salvation of OUR LORD . 

Amen!  Law was only added because of transgression, just as that passage in 1 Tim.1 is talking about.  Why oh why would those to whom the very righteousness of Christ has been imputed want to keep clinging to that old rotting corpse of the Law......and worse glorifying the Law in place of the living resurrected Christ, the one to whom the Law was pointing and leading to.

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1 hour ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

Let all heaven and earth Praise the LORD .    The breaker of the chains of bondage , the freer of men .   Christ the KING .    Let all eyes , hearts , minds , be stayed upon HIM .

And be on guard in these days , for we must always remember the flesh profits nothing .  YE must be born again .   All else is sinking sand .

YOU ARE loved my sister .   Let no man point to Rome , let no man point to a gentile, let no man point to a jew .   POINT ONLY TO CHRIST and let all the people praise His name .

And you know what the beauty of it all is ,   by grace for years I have sang this song ,  and the sounding of it never gets weary ,

IT ONLY INCREASES the joy and the hope and the peace .   HE whose mind is stayed upon the LORD shall have great peace .

For no matter what comes against them , no drought , no east wind , no scorching sun ,   shall dry that plant .

FOR it is planted by the LORD and HE supplies its root to leaf with all the life giving water it needs to not only maintain in the harshest drought

but keep increasing and bearing fruit .     OH Their is no joy like the JOY of the LORD and let all joy in the salvation of OUR LORD . 

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 

18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

The Law and the prophets were a tutor to leading to Christ. The Law and the heaven and earth, in the verse,was the Mosaic Law, the Old Covenant world of Israel. The  Law, Jewish, economy, was given to the Nation, and in Matthew 5:17, 18 was directed to them in the first century.  Not to the literal heaven and earth world we now reside in.

It's all about covenant, not the destruction of our planet that is in view.  If the verse is literal, and since the heavens and earth have not disappeared, we are then under the Law of Moses if we are Jewish of course. However if it speaking about covenants then we, the Jews, are not under the Mosaic policy.

Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear

When the Old Covenant became, or realized obsolete we Christians are living under the New Heavens's and Earth, the New Covenant. Jer. 31

and all the blessing it provides for both Jew and Gentile. 

Hebrews 8:8 But God found fault with the people and said: "The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 

As one commentator put it, if things in the New Testament, when considering prophecy have double meanings, it has not meaning at all. People want to take the first century event and apply them to our day. This is where the no show of Christ originated, and gave the atheist ammunition to shot back at Christians. I am not predicting Christ will not once again come to our planet, only the scripture provided by the no show prophets. Scripture that speak of an imminent coming in the first century.

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5 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

 

Fallen earth and heaven witnessing against those who are still likewise fallen, not saved.....unredeemed creation being still under a curse at this present time, in a fallen state.  There will be no need for the Law in the new heavens and new earth.  New heaven and new earth will be renewed and freed from the curse.  There won't be any unrighteous/fallen left to judge/curse at that time, because they will have already been judged and thrown into the lake of fire.   Any who are born again of the Spirit are new creatures.....no longer fallen but a new spiritual creation (except for our physical body, which redemption still awaits and is promised..good as done), and therefore no longer part of fallen creation (heaven and earth) or under the Law....but already counted as citizens of the new heaven/earth...eternal, world without end.

1Ti 1:5-11

Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;

Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

For we ourselves passing through this present temporal earth and heaven, we need to decide which we are under....either we are under the Law or we are under the blood of Christ, but we can't be under both. 

Isa 43:18

Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old.

Are we born again righteous followers of Yeshua, or are we still disobedient unrighteous sinners under the curse of the Law and its ministry of death?

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 

 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

The Law and the prophets were a tutor to leading to Christ. The Law and the heaven and earth, in the verse,was the Mosaic Law, the Old Covenant world of Israel. The  Law, Jewish, economy, was given to the Nation, and in Matthew 5:17, 18 was directed to them in the first century.  Not to the literal heaven and earth world we now reside in.

It's all about covenant, not the destruction of our planet that is in view.  If the verse is literal, and since the heavens and earth have not disappeared, we are then under the Law of Moses if we are Jewish of course. However if it speaking about covenants then we, the Jews, are not under the Mosaic policy.

Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear

When the Old Covenant became, or realized obsolete we Christians are living under the New Heavens's and Earth, the New Covenant. Jer. 31

and all the blessing it provides for both Jew and Gentile. 

Hebrews 8:8 But God found fault with the people and said: "The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 

As one commentator put it, if things in the New Testament, when considering prophecy have double meanings, it has not meaning at all. People want to take the first century event and apply them to our day. This is where the no show of Christ originated, and gave the atheist ammunition to shot back at Christians. I am not predicting Christ will not once again come to our planet, only the scripture provided by the no show prophets. Scripture that speak of an imminent coming in the first century.

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Larry .   I got a real bad feeling , due to preterism and so on ,   you getting set up for not a , BUT THE DELUSION .

So how bout you tell me ,  what you see coming in the near future .     Talk about your view on what you think is coming .

 

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Mat 24:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

Three questions are asked here with three different answers:

When will this happen?  (the destruction of the the Temple)

What will be the sign of Your Coming? 

Whit will be the sign of the end of the age?

We know when the Temple was destroyed.  But neither the signs of His coming nor of the end of the age have been fulfilled in their entirety.

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2 hours ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

Larry .   I got a real bad feeling , due to preterism and so on ,   you getting set up for not a , BUT THE DELUSION .

So how bout you tell me ,  what you see coming in the near future .     Talk about your view on what you think is coming .

 

Thanks for asking, and giving me an opportunity to provide an answer.

I can only speak for myself, I cannot predict near future events, or would want to.  According to my understanding of the future if I hold out to the end in faith the bible tells me I will live in the household of my heavenly Father.

This may or may not be a preterist concept. My relationship with my Heavenly Father and His only begotten Son Jesus is of the most importance. This supersedes the preterist or futurist theology which I consider only open for discussion.  

OK ....Concerning the second coming of our Lord Jesus in our future, I am not sure. I find no scriptural magic bullet at the time to prove it. However the bible is loaded with time text to provide evidence Jesus came in Divine judgment of the Jewish Nation in the first century. Matthew 24 I posted scriptures to provide that evidence that have been completely ignored.  All I am getting is statements about preterism. Why is that? 1 peter 3:15

Most likely many Christians have not looked into the theology, or care to do so. If so should not make broad statements concerning it. I think many Christians are enjoying their comfort zone. Don't we all at times. 

About that magic bullet I would appreciate some input

BTW not to worry I feel protected by the Holy Spirit, which has not let me down for many years.

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11 hours ago, Larry H said:

Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear

When the Old Covenant became, or realized obsolete we Christians are living under the New Heavens's and Earth, the New Covenant. Jer. 31

The apostles and early believers had already entered the new covenant, and still were awaiting a new heavens and new earth, which obviously hadn't/hasn't happened yet.  I tried to show on your other thread why the Law is considered to be fading away/disappearing....simply because it is still being kept by some.... believing Jews  whose conscience is not yet free to discard it, since whatsoever is not of faith is sin (and actually unbelieving Jews who keep the Law as well, of course).  Yes we are citizens already of the new heavens and new earth.....but as scripture says we do not yet see everything put under His feet, His dominion is not yet fully manifested.....but we are still looking forward to that day, when also we will see the redemption of our physical bodies, which obviously also hasn't happened yet.

2Pe 3:2-13

That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

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