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PRETERISM THE NEW FRONTIER


Larry H

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On 1/9/2019 at 10:06 AM, George said:

In this particular passage, this is an individual who was bound by the devil -- the devil is the strongman, within a person who needed to be cast out.  This passage has nothing to do with the passage in Revelation.

Rev 20:1  Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. 
Rev 20:2  And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 
Rev 20:3  and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while. 

The problem is that preterists do not believe a great many things that are VERY OBSERVABLE from the naked eye.

1st -- Since Preterists believe that we're in the Kingdom now, they are not looking toward a 1000-year reign of Jesus.  They believe we're in the Kingdom now ... which is only partially true as you can OBSERVE with the human eye why this is absurd.

2nd -- the fact that the DEVIL is not bound and is running about like a roaring lion shows that we're not in the millennial kingdom.

3rd -- Preterists also cannot observe the simple reality that a STATE of ISRAEL exists today in fulfillment of prophecy.  Just a simple understanding ... if God is in control -- and God allowed the State of Israel to be created .. then God has a plan.  This simple observable fact -- should make every preterist re-examine his understanding of the last days.

Perhaps, just looking around ... seeing what you can see with your very eyes ... that observable events in our generation makes easy to compare Scripture with Scripture.

Preterists believe it was all fulfilled in 70 A.D. but Scripture clearly tells us -- 

Dan 12:4  But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.

Just read the Scriptures in light of events taking place, and you'll find that the book is actually being unsealed completely in our generation!

Your brother in the Lord with much agape love,

George

 

Quote

 

Preterists believe it was all fulfilled in 70 A.D. but Scripture clearly tells us -- 

Dan 12:4  But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.

 

Hi George ....... I hate to beat an old horse to death, no pun intended.  The book of Daniel speaks of the future "time of the end" however not "the end of time." which I believe was referred to .... in other words the end of history.

Dan 12:4  But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

WHY

 

Daniel was told by an angel to seal up the book for the  "Time of the end" " So when the prophet received the prediction concerning what was at a considerable distance of time, he shut his book"

 

Many years later in the book of Revelation, John is told not to seal up the prophecy in the book  because the eminent time frame 

Revelation 22:10 Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near.

Revelation 22:10[Seal not the sayings] Do not lay them up for future generations; they concern the present times; they must shortly come to pass, for the time is at hand. See above, Revelation 22:6. What concerned the Jews was certainly at hand. Adam Clarke's Commentary

Revelation 22:6 The angel said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that "must soon take place."

Far from Dan's day

Near to John's day.

Which begs the question far or near from what. 

Daniel 12:7  "they will not end until three and a half years after the power of God's people has been crushed"

Sound to me like the three and a half year  "War of the Jews" finalized by the destruction of their temple in AD 70. "power of God's people has been crushed"

Daniel 12:4[Many shall run to and fro] Many shall endeavour to search out the sense; and knowledge shall be increased by these means; though the meaning shall not be fully known till the events take place: THEN the seal shall be broken, and the sense become plain. This seems to be the meaning of this verse, though another has been put on it, namely, "Many shall run to and fro preaching the Gospel of Christ, and therefore religious knowledge and true wisdom shall be increased." This is true in itself; but it is not the meaning of the prophet's words. Adam Clarke's Commentary 

Is this the observable thing to the eye you mentioned in our day. 

Who were the Holy people spoken of in verse 7

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On 1/18/2019 at 7:48 PM, Larry H said:
Quote

The earthly kingdom is what the Jews rejected when they rejected Jesus as their king. And when they rejected the king and therefore the kingdom, all people lost out, because the kingdom has to be established in Jerusalem.

Not all Jews, there were many then and now who became followers of Jesus. It is of my opinion the kingdom of God was establish in the first century, and there were some Jews who listen to the words of Christ who witness it. References below.

Matthew 16:28 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

Matthew 26:64 "Yes, it is as you [singular: the High Priest] say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

Check the context of the two scriptures above. Right after the first quote, Jesus was transfigured on the Mount: a show of his heavenly kingdom-exaltation, which did not also come to pass in Judea.

Jesus was speaking to the Sanhedrin in the second passage, immediately before they condemned him to death for this statement. Jesus' prophecy is fulfilled in the End Times, not in the era he spoke, as witnessed by the Book of Revelation:

Rev. 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him.

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Quote
“No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
They shall build houses and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
They shall not build and another inhabit;
They shall not plant and another eat;
For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,
And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

This is another passage that makes preterism a difficult pill for me to swallow.  Just as we cannot see a wolf and lamb dwelling together in our day, this passage a few verses above describes some circumstances we have yet to see as well.

This logically has to occur during  the Millenial Reign because of  several things.

1.  Sinners are mentioned so we have not yet made it to the Judgement. 

2. Death is present so that last enemy has not yet been thrown into the lake of fire.

3. Apparently lifespans return to spans  of hundreds of years and a 100 yr old is considered a "child" (the Hebrew word used there refers to  a weaned child that is not yet an adult so i'm assuming it refers to a child over 4-5 yrs but  less than 13)

People just don't live hundreds of years right now....it's sure a reality  to look forward to when the King gets back though :)

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4 hours ago, Jostler said:

This is another passage that makes preterism a difficult pill for me to swallow.  Just as we cannot see a wolf and lamb dwelling together in our day, this passage a few verses above describes some circumstances we have yet to see as well.

This logically has to occur during  the Millenial Reign because of  several things.

1.  Sinners are mentioned so we have not yet made it to the Judgement. 

2. Death is present so that last enemy has not yet been thrown into the lake of fire.

3. Apparently lifespans return to spans  of hundreds of years and a 100 yr old is considered a "child" (the Hebrew word used there refers to  a weaned child that is not yet an adult so i'm assuming it refers to a child over 4-5 yrs but  less than 13)

People just don't live hundreds of years right now....it's sure a reality  to look forward to when the King gets back though :)

Luke 17:20 Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation,

21 nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."

The only way I see those verses concerning the animal kingdom in my estimation is if they represent the New Covenant of peace among brothers and sisters in the faith. Many who were once enemies like the Jew  and Gentile have now become the body of Christ. Eph. 2 And the prospect of eternal life. John 5:24,25 in the house of God.

At one time ......"But these, as creatures without reason, born mere animals to be taken and destroyed, railing in matters whereof they are ignorant, shall in their destroying surely be destroyed" 2 PETER 2:12

Matthew 7:15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves

If preterism is a hard pill to swallow, don't swallow it. We would be going against your conscience at the time, however no theological denomination or group has a handle truth. BTW being a preterist is not like joining some club or denomination. Take what we see is truth, and leave out what we don't see biblical.  

"But test all things carefully [so you can recognize what is good]. Hold firmly to that which is good." 1 THESSALONIANS 5:21 

Consider even preterist have their scriptural problems that some of them find hard to deal with, which I am researching at the time. But the concept holds many truths that are ignored by the Christian community. 

Did Jesus die for the animal kingdom, in a way He did.

God Bless

Larry just a bible student like yourself.

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5 minutes ago, Larry H said:

...The only way I see those verses concerning the animal kingdom in my estimation is if they represent the New Covenant of peace among brothers and sisters in the faith. ..

 

Larry let me address this one part of your whole post.  I feel I have been taught in MANY instances to take the Bible  very literally and avoid seeing symbols unless the text itself demands it.  In the cases where symbolism IS used, and they are many, the Bible always interprets the symbol.  It's not  left to us.

Lets look at something.  IMO there  is NO argument over what is Jesus most important work.  That was undoubtedly the  cross, the redemption of mankind.  But that  is not the full scope of His work.  In Jonah, Father Himself in his conversation showed that He has concern for His Creation....ALL of it...including animals.

 

Quote

 

“And should I not pity Nineveh, that great city, in which are more than one hundred and twenty thousand persons who cannot discern between their right hand and their left—and much livestock?”

 

 
I don't want to make too much of this but doesn't the fact God would even mention the livestock that were spared by Ninevah's repentance indicate some level of concern for them?
 
And just what was Jesus "job".  What did He come to do?  Redeem man?  Of course,  but is that all?
 
Quote
He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

Friend before He's done, He's gonna reverse ALL of what the devil has temporarily accomplished.  Including  the restoration of the animal kingdom, and ALL of nature.  To take note of that, to expect it, to rejoice in it takes nothing away from the importance of redemption.

I don't think we're given  a lot of details in exactly  what changed, but somehow  Adam's fall affected everything he'd been given dominion  over.  And since that time:

Quote
 
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;

because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.

Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

I don't pretend to understand the details, but whatever those are it's clear the Bible teaches that creation, nature, animals, all of it is in some form  of bondage which will be lifted when His  glory  is fully manifested in the  Sons of God.  Our  salvation is not complete until we have laid down this corrupted meat sack and received a new spiritual body  from Heaven.

My  understanding (and this is debatable) is that God's intent for Adam was that the Garden should be Adam's kindergarden, where he learnt to be "god of this world" after the image and likeness of  his Father who is God of all creation.  A place to learn to exercise dominion in love.  Adam messed that up but Jesus came to fix it.
 
Adam abdicated when he  chose to listen to satan  rather than the Word and satan wrested that God given authority (dominion over 3-dimensional creation) and that  is one of the  things He  restored  to US (who  are IN HIM) on the cross.  But satan had plenty of time to mar and twist creation and subject it to bondage.  It's not wrong to look at the whole picture, even if the rescue of mankind is undeniably the centerpiece :)
 
My two cents :)
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4 hours ago, Jostler said:

Larry let me address this one part of your whole post.  I feel I have been taught in MANY instances to take the Bible  very literally and avoid seeing symbols unless the text itself demands it.  In the cases where symbolism IS used, and they are many, the Bible always interprets the symbol.  It's not  left to us.

Lets look at something.  IMO there  is NO argument over what is Jesus most important work.  That was undoubtedly the  cross, the redemption of mankind.  But that  is not the full scope of His work.  In Jonah, Father Himself in his conversation showed that He has concern for His Creation....ALL of it...including animals.

 

 
I don't want to make too much of this but doesn't the fact God would even mention the livestock that were spared by Ninevah's repentance indicate some level of concern for them?
 
And just what was Jesus "job".  What did He come to do?  Redeem man?  Of course,  but is that all?
 

Friend before He's done, He's gonna reverse ALL of what the devil has temporarily accomplished.  Including  the restoration of the animal kingdom, and ALL of nature.  To take note of that, to expect it, to rejoice in it takes nothing away from the importance of redemption.

I don't think we're given  a lot of details in exactly  what changed, but somehow  Adam's fall affected everything he'd been given dominion  over.  And since that time:

I don't pretend to understand the details, but whatever those are it's clear the Bible teaches that creation, nature, animals, all of it is in some form  of bondage which will be lifted when His  glory  is fully manifested in the  Sons of God.  Our  salvation is not complete until we have laid down this corrupted meat sack and received a new spiritual body  from Heaven.

My  understanding (and this is debatable) is that God's intent for Adam was that the Garden should be Adam's kindergarden, where he learnt to be "god of this world" after the image and likeness of  his Father who is God of all creation.  A place to learn to exercise dominion in love.  Adam messed that up but Jesus came to fix it.
 
Adam abdicated when he  chose to listen to satan  rather than the Word and satan wrested that God given authority (dominion over 3-dimensional creation) and that  is one of the  things He  restored  to US (who  are IN HIM) on the cross.  But satan had plenty of time to mar and twist creation and subject it to bondage.  It's not wrong to look at the whole picture, even if the rescue of mankind is undeniably the centerpiece :)
 
My two cents :)

What did Paul have in mind when He penned his letter to the suffering Christians in Rome. What was the earnest expectation?

Romans  8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Philippians 1:20  I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have sufficient courage so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death.

Philippians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,

This is the Gospel of Christ below, and what the Apostles preached. One can only go to the highly symbolic book of Revelation to present a case. We can go there if you like.       I'll get my soap box :)

1 Corinthians 15:1 Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.

2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

A commentator Barnes'  came to this conclusion concerning the verses in Romans.

"Christians only have the prospect of deliverance. To them is held out the hope of final rescue, and of an eternal inheritance beyond all these sufferings. They wait, therefore, for the full benefits of the adoption; the complete recovery even of the body from the effects of sin, and the toils and trials of this live; and thus they are sustained by hope, which is the argument which the apostle has in view; Romans 8:23-24. With this view of the general scope of the passage, we may examine the particular phrases."

My two cents also, and I'll raise you a penny :)

God Bless and have a great day my brother

All donations are excepted

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On 1/24/2019 at 11:47 AM, WilliamL said:

Check the context of the two scriptures above. Right after the first quote, Jesus was transfigured on the Mount: a show of his heavenly kingdom-exaltation, which did not also come to pass in Judea.

Jesus was speaking to the Sanhedrin in the second passage, immediately before they condemned him to death for this statement. Jesus' prophecy is fulfilled in the End Times, not in the era he spoke, as witnessed by the Book of Revelation:

Rev. 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him.

Hi William

I have a question concerning the second passage, how are the Sanhedrin going to see Christ coming on clouds of heaven in our future. Are they going to be resurrected prior to the that event to witness it.

I believe it took some seven days to reach the Mount of Transfiguration. Jesus mentioned some who were standing there. would not taste death till they see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of God. Did all the others taste death within those seven days? If that is what Jesus was referring to in Matthew 16:28

This is the same scenario for Rev. 1:7  since they would be obviously dead at His second coming. How could they see Him?

If you put some details in I will have some idea what you are getting at. And respond accordingly.

Thanks before posting.

Larry

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If anyone is interested there is an upcoming debate between two preterist concerning the Rapture. 

Don Preston 

My proposition: “The Bible teaches that 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, i.e. the coming of Christ at His parousia in A.D. 70, was the return of God to man, to dwell forever, reuniting heaven and earth in spiritual fellowship and life, versus a departure or removal of the then living saints from the earth.”

Ed Steven

The theme by Ed Stevens is "Silence Demands a Rapture" suggesting that the Rapture is a first century event. The reason for that is that since there is no documentation following AD 70, the conclusion is those Christians were taken up in a Rapture. Leaving the preterist camp with a problem most of them don't speak about.

https://www.preteristarchive.com/Hyper/2002_stevens_rapture.html

 

I found various articles penned by full preterist concerning, "Expectations Demand a First Century Rapture." One taking the stand on a physical rapture in the first century, the other considering earth and heaven restored in AD 70 preceding the fall in the Garden of Eden .I.e. the temple of God.

"The dilemma is by fact the silence following post AD 70. "The sheer volume of these 'expectation statements' which promise that they would 'know' when the parousia occurred, and 'see' it, and experience it, absolutely stunned me."

"Then I was reminded again of the fact that not a single post-AD 70 writer, not even Apostle John (who was supposedly still around) or the "apostolic fathers" who supposedly wrote immediately after AD 70, mention the parousia as fulfilled at AD 70." Ed Stevens

Contrary to this is

"If a physical rapture or resurrection was the hope of salvation, what benefit does that give me who will continue on this earth until death? I know Ed would not dispute the advantages we Christians have today apart from the law, in perfect communion with God the Father, but can he adequately define what purpose there is to life in the here and now, if it is the hereafter that was the hope and focus of Paul and the first century Christians? Can he adequately describe what our benefit is, truly, if the expectation of the first century were in a disappearance? If the rewards that we are to be experiencing are so great, why did they need to be swept away from it?" Nathan DuBois

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On 1/25/2019 at 7:41 PM, Larry H said:

I have a question concerning the second passage, how are the Sanhedrin going to see Christ coming on clouds of heaven in our future. Are they going to be resurrected prior to the that event to witness it.

Daniel 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28 “Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

Obviously the Sanhedrin that condemned Jesus will be among these.

On 1/25/2019 at 7:41 PM, Larry H said:

Jesus mentioned some who were standing there. would not taste death till they see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of God. Did all the others taste death within those seven days? If that is what Jesus was referring to in Matthew 16:28

Only three disciples saw Jesus transfigured. The rest died before they get their chance to see it at the Second Coming.

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22 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Daniel 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28 “Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

Obviously the Sanhedrin that condemned Jesus will be among these.

Only three disciples saw Jesus transfigured. The rest died before they get their chance to see it at the Second Coming.

 Hi William

I'll try the question for a second time, since it wasn't answered or misunderstood in my last post.. "All  capitalization's  will be mine"

DOES THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD PROCEED OR COME ABOUT PRIOR TO THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST ON CLOUDS OF HEAVEN.

IF IT IS AFTER how will those who tasted death in Matthew 16:28, and those who piereced him in Rev,1:7, and the high priest in Matthew 26:64 see the event. i.e.  "BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS" "and every eye will see Him"

In other words all those folks will be dead and not able to see the cloud coming of our Lord if the resurrection follows that coming.

Matthew 16:28 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the SON OF MAN COMING in his kingdom."

Matthew 26:63 But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God."

64 "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

Revelation 1:7 Lo, he doth COME WITH THE CLOUDS, and SEE HIM shall every eye, even THOSE WHO DID PIERCE HIM, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen! YOUNG'S LITERAL TRANSLATIONS

Kind Regards

Larry

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