Larry H Posted February 4, 2019 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 119 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 20 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/17/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 4, 2019 On 2/1/2019 at 9:13 AM, Larry H said: Hi William I'll try the question for a second time, since it wasn't answered or misunderstood in my last post.. "All capitalization's will be mine" DOES THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD PROCEED OR COME ABOUT PRIOR TO THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST ON CLOUDS OF HEAVEN. IF IT IS AFTER how will those who tasted death in Matthew 16:28, and those who piereced him in Rev,1:7, and the high priest in Matthew 26:64 see the event. i.e. "BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS" "and every eye will see Him" In other words all those folks will be dead and not able to see the cloud coming of our Lord if the resurrection follows that coming. Matthew 16:28 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the SON OF MAN COMING in his kingdom." Matthew 26:63 But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." 64 "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN." Revelation 1:7 Lo, he doth COME WITH THE CLOUDS, and SEE HIM shall every eye, even THOSE WHO DID PIERCE HIM, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen! YOUNG'S LITERAL TRANSLATIONS Kind Regards Larry It a hard question to answer, and has baffled commentator for centuries, it has been a problem for many to interpret. Unless we leave the sense of the question, and the phrase "Clouds of Heaven" back where it belongs. I.e. the first century. When the high priest and some of the Sanhedrin would be living to witness the episode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamL Posted February 5, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 97 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 5,039 Content Per Day: 1.47 Reputation: 2,541 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/06/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/01/1950 Share Posted February 5, 2019 (edited) On 2/1/2019 at 10:13 AM, Larry H said: In other words all those folks will be dead and not able to see the cloud coming of our Lord if the resurrection follows that coming. Not at all. The dead saw Jesus when He descended to Hades for three days. One does not have to have a physical body to see a spiritual body. The only way everyone will be able to see the Lord's Coming will be in spirit, with the vision of the spirit. If this is to be a purely physical in-the-clouds appearance of the Lord, then half of the people in the world would be on the wrong side of the earth to see Him, and "every eye" could not see Him. These topics are covered in some depth in my blogs, particularly these two: Edited February 5, 2019 by WilliamL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry H Posted February 6, 2019 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 119 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 20 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/17/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 6, 2019 10 hours ago, WilliamL said: Not at all. The dead saw Jesus when He descended to Hades for three days. One does not have to have a physical body to see a spiritual body. The only way everyone will be able to see the Lord's Coming will be in spirit, with the vision of the spirit. If this is to be a purely physical in-the-clouds appearance of the Lord, then half of the people in the world would be on the wrong side of the earth to see Him, and "every eye" could not see Him. These topics are covered in some depth in my blogs, particularly these two: Matthew 26:64 "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." I'll run with that. So these dead folks while in their grave will see, in spirit, in some sort of way, the second coming of Christ in our future. And that is what Jesus meant when declaring judgment on the Sanhedrin. Who if fact according to the that idea had no idea what Jesus was talking about. Instead of Jesus and the Sanhedrin having in mind what Adam Clark's or Ken Gentry's said about the verse. Especially when considering Jesus and the Sanhedrin understood Daniel 7:13, and what it represented. Daniel 7:13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. Adam Clark "[Thou hast said] That is, I am the Christ, the promised Messiah (see at Matthew 26:25;) and you and this whole nation shall shortly have the fullest proof of it: for hereafter, in a few years, ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, fully invested with absolute dominion, and coming in the clouds of heaven, to execute judgment upon this wicked race. See Matthew 24:30. Our Lord appears to refer to Daniel 7:13. One like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, etc." Or on the verse. Kenneth Gentry “The final collapse of Jerusalem and the Temple.. Through these events the Jews were to “see” the Son of Man in His judgment-coming in terrifying cloud-glory: clouds are symbols of divine majesty often entailing stormy destruction. The members of the Sanhedrin and others would experience such in their life times (Matt. 26:64; Mark 9:1; cf. Rev 1:7 with Rev 1:1,3).” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uriah Posted February 7, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,364 Content Per Day: 0.59 Reputation: 277 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/03/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted February 7, 2019 (edited) On 1/6/2019 at 2:13 PM, Larry H said: "Since there is nothing new under the sun I thought putting the subject matter of preterism, another " izm" on the table and analyzing it for exploration." Are you a full or partial preterist? Edited February 7, 2019 by Uriah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry H Posted February 8, 2019 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 119 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 20 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/17/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 8, 2019 23 hours ago, Uriah said: Hi Uriah ..... I would rather be called a Child of God, Christian, or just a Bible Student simply like yourself. They say Partial Preterism leads to full Preterism, which at the time seems like the right thoroughfare to take. To me this theology is exceptionally intriguing, but I would not want to be locked into a comfort zone of eschatology with it. Or any other. So I scrutinize it here with those considerably knowledgeable of the futuristic approach of last/days things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uriah Posted February 8, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,364 Content Per Day: 0.59 Reputation: 277 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/03/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted February 8, 2019 Hi Larry, Well said. I am sure you will get plenty of info here on the futuristic approach. To me, full preterism is not defensible. And partial preterists are actually by default partial futurists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry H Posted February 9, 2019 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 119 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 20 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/17/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 9, 2019 18 hours ago, Uriah said: Hi Larry, Well said. I am sure you will get plenty of info here on the futuristic approach. To me, full preterism is not defensible. And partial preterists are actually by default partial futurists. Hi Uriah There were and still are Pastors across America with false prediction of the second coming in our future supplying atheist, and none believers with ammunition to debunk the bible. As they endeavor to come across a News Paper article to match their last days predictions. So far I have never encountered a futurist who doesn't sweep their guess work under a rug. While these authors inscribe calculation books, that are flying of Christian bookstore shelves, may be good educators of the bible, force Christians to doubt their views on last days eschatology. If the last days phrase in the New Testament only refers to the last days of the Mosaic polity the futurist has no place to go except to preteristic religious studies for solutions. So I advance with an open minds to be filled with the Spirit of God to make sure of all things, and hold on to what is fine in His sight. I'm sure just like yourself. God Bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uriah Posted February 9, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,364 Content Per Day: 0.59 Reputation: 277 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/03/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted February 9, 2019 Hello Larry, "Sweep under the rug"? You'll never hear me trivialize the errors of those who make predictions and rely on news articles-period. But the same should be said for those who tell us that major prophetic passages are already fulfilled without anyone in history ever noticing such events. I'd say it works both ways. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry H Posted February 10, 2019 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 119 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 20 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/17/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 10, 2019 10 hours ago, Uriah said: Hello Larry, "Sweep under the rug"? You'll never hear me trivialize the errors of those who make predictions and rely on news articles-period. But the same should be said for those who tell us that major prophetic passages are already fulfilled without anyone in history ever noticing such events. I'd say it works both ways. Hi Uriah That is correct that the absence of historical material of the expectation of what the Parousia post AD 70 would bring to the first century Church is a dilemma, unspoken of, by the preterist community. In other words why the silence for three decades by the faithful living Apostle's, if there was one alive, or many other Christians? It would seem appropriate to write about the destruction of Jerusalem, and the demolition of the temple. Matthew 24 Not a word. It's observable there would be some people who witnessed the Parousia, and yet it is a documentation problem. Even so for the futurist. As one Full preterist put it, "Something is drastically wrong with this picture! The silence is SCREAMING -- a "deafening" silence so LOUD that even our critics have heard it. Why haven't we?" BTW according to the partial and full preterist view the book of Revelation was written sometime during Nero's reign. 66 AD. There are many scholars who take the early dating of Revelation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uriah Posted February 10, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,364 Content Per Day: 0.59 Reputation: 277 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/03/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted February 10, 2019 Hello Larry, I see what you are saying. Yes I also have heard of the position of Rev. being written pre 70 A.D. But it only makes that position worse. Some futurists maintain that NT writers believed that the things they spoke of would be fulfilled in that time, (yet God saw it otherwise) similar to OT prophets who didn't see two comings of Messiah or that He would suffer and be rejected. IMO, once again the majority is wrong, believing things that will not turn out the way they think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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