PRETERISM THE NEW FRONTIER

[Larry H]

16 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hi Larry, 

Rev. 13:17- And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Would you please provide some historical evidence as to when this prophecy was fulfilled? 

Also, I am looking for the date of the following, because I was under the impression Nero committed suicide in 68 A.D.:

Rev. 19:20- And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Hi again Uriah

Yes, Nero committee suicide around the date you mentioned.

Quote

Rev. 13:17- And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Revelation 13:18 This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.

Check the internet what that number 666 added up to, a man's number

Here is the Historical evidence  you asked for, it seems to me to make sense. 

Nero so affected the imagination that the pagan writer Apollinius of Tyana, a contemporary of Nero, specifically mentions that Nero was called a "beast": "In my travels, which have been wider than ever man yet accomplished, I have seen many, many wild beasts of Arabia and India; but this beast, that is commonly called a Tyrant, I know not how many heads it has, nor if it be crooked of claw, and armed with horrible fangs. . . . And of wild beasts you cannot say that they were ever known to eat their own mother, but nero has gorged himself on this diet."

The Christians of the first century were under the military authority of Rome, a nation which openly proclaimed its rulers, the Caesars, to be divine. All those under the jurisdiction of Rome were required by law to publicly proclaim their allegiance to Caesar by burning a pinch of incense and declaring, "Caesar is Lord". Upon compliance with this law, the people were given a papyrus document called a "libellus", which they were required to present when either stopped by the Roman police or attempting to engage in commerce in the Roman marketplace, increasing the difficulty of "buying or selling" without this mark. This is the essence of Scripture’s warnings to the early Christians against taking upon themselves the "mark of the beast".

There is also the historical evidence that Nero placed his statue at various agoras (market places) throughout his Roman empire. In order for one to enter, to buy or sell in the agora, one had to stop and pay homage to Nero, by burning incense to his statue. It was an act of Emperor worship (Emperor Cult Worship of the Roman Empire). After one burned the incense, it was required of them to smear the ash from the incense on the forehead or right hand to prove right to enter the agora. To take this mark was called “taking the mark of Nero” or “taking the mark of the beast”.

 

[Uriah]

Hi Larry,

The above is a copy/paste from David Duncan's website. It is an amateurish mish mash to convince people that there is an ancient source decreeing that no man could buy or sell without a mark in the right hand or forehead. THAT document of all in antiquity should be the prime displayed feature for preterists. Nobody has seen it yet. It is all suggestion and innuendo.

The "mark" is not a piece of paper (charagma)= a scratch or etching, i.e. stamp (as a badge of servitude), or scupltured figure (statue):—graven, mark.

Ashes on your skin is NOT such thing as "charagma". 

"mark of Nero" appears on only 5 pages in a Google search, most of which pertain to lyrics of a (heavy metal?) song. None of which are seen in an ancient document proclaiming the denial of commerce. 

Sleight of hand on websites won't work. Nor does the absence of a response to being captured Nero alive with the false prophet and thrown into a lake of fire.

[Larry H]

8 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hi Larry,

The above is a copy/paste from David Duncan's website. It is an amateurish mish mash to convince people that there is an ancient source decreeing that no man could buy or sell without a mark in the right hand or forehead. THAT document of all in antiquity should be the prime displayed feature for preterists. Nobody has seen it yet. It is all suggestion and innuendo.

The "mark" is not a piece of paper (charagma)= a scratch or etching, i.e. stamp (as a badge of servitude), or scupltured figure (statue):—graven, mark.

Ashes on your skin is NOT such thing as "charagma". 

"mark of Nero" appears on only 5 pages in a Google search, most of which pertain to lyrics of a (heavy metal?) song. None of which are seen in an ancient document proclaiming the denial of commerce. 

Sleight of hand on websites won't work. Nor does the absence of a response to being captured Nero alive with the false prophet and thrown into a lake of fire.

Hi Uriah Thanks for the response and the time spent to do so.

I have some more homework for you to do about the Mark of the beast .

Dr Jonathan Welton, Thd     

"Regarding the “mark of the beast,” it is important to note that in the ancient cultures of Rome, the public market was the main source of trade and retail. For people to enter the public market, they had to pass through the main gate. It was required of all who entered the main gate to pay homage to the idol of the Emperor. Once homage was paid, ashes were placed on the hand or on the forehead of the individual, and then they were allowed to pass through the gates and buy and sell merchandise. This was taking the mark. The parallels between this and the “mark of the beast” are stunning, and they further confirm the reality that the beast was Nero and the Roman Empire."

Consider IMHO from the verse in Revelation posted, that the full preterist differ in interpretation timing and certain events of the book. The question should be how did those in the Seven Churches Rev. 1:4,11  in first century Asia understand it. If they did not how would they be blessed by hearing the words therein. Rev. 1:3 And the book would be irrelevant to those suffering brothers. By the way the book was specifically written to their happening, not universal Christianity. Example

To the angel of the church in Sardis write: To the angel of the church in Ephesus write, "To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: 

OK Your up

Regards

Larry 

[Uriah]

Hi Larry,

All we have here is yet another modern day writer asserting his opinion. Where is the historical record that Nero caused all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.???

Again this same man must have been taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

This is not the first time I've seen people relying on varying authors who essentially sit in a circle and compare theories then quote each other. The forcing of ALL to receive a MARK (not ashes) or be forbidden any monetary transaction would have had to be the equivalent to Augustus making a decree to tax the world! Again, no original source of such a demand whatsoever.

σποδός spodós, spod-os'; of uncertain derivation; ashes:—ashes.

χάραγμα cháragma, khar'-ag-mah; from the same as G5482; a scratch or etching, i.e. stamp (as a badge of servitude), or scupltured figure (statue):—graven, mark. 

From the same as χάραξ (G5482)..........................see below

For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench ^G5482 about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,

That word is defined as a palisade-a sharpened/pointed post etc. The online source for this USED TO go further saying "to prick, as with a thorn", making some think tattoo. Might still be able to find it in a hard copy, will get back to you on that.

 Charagma  Chara Charakter  (derivation) ( a completely different world of meaning compared to a smudge of ashes. 

1. a stamp, an imprinted mark
   1. of the mark stamped on the forehead or the right hand as the badge of the followers of the Antichrist
   2. the mark branded upon horses
2. thing carved, sculpture, graven work
   1. of idolatrous images 

[Larry H]

14 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hi Larry,

All we have here is yet another modern day writer asserting his opinion. Where is the historical record that Nero caused all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.???

Again this same man must have been taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

This is not the first time I've seen people relying on varying authors who essentially sit in a circle and compare theories then quote each other. The forcing of ALL to receive a MARK (not ashes) or be forbidden any monetary transaction would have had to be the equivalent to Augustus making a decree to tax the world! Again, no original source of such a demand whatsoever.

σποδός spodós, spod-os'; of uncertain derivation; ashes:—ashes.

χάραγμα cháragma, khar'-ag-mah; from the same as G5482; a scratch or etching, i.e. stamp (as a badge of servitude), or scupltured figure (statue):—graven, mark. 

From the same as χάραξ (G5482)..........................see below

For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench ^G5482 about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,

That word is defined as a palisade-a sharpened/pointed post etc. The online source for this USED TO go further saying "to prick, as with a thorn", making some think tattoo. Might still be able to find it in a hard copy, will get back to you on that.

 Charagma  Chara Charakter  (derivation) ( a completely different world of meaning compared to a smudge of ashes. 

1. a stamp, an imprinted mark
   1. of the mark stamped on the forehead or the right hand as the badge of the followers of the Antichrist
   2. the mark branded upon horses
2. thing carved, sculpture, graven work
   1. of idolatrous images 

Hi Uriah 

Is  Flavius Josephus a first century Historian a reliable Author? Or Shimon Gibson in our day.

Mark 12:13-17   The Beast of Revelation   As they say seeing is believing. The link at the end of this post.

Archaeologists from the University of North Carolina at Charlotte are reporting that they’ve found a gold coin bearing the image of the mid-first century Roman emperor Nero, uncovered during excavations in the Western Hill of Jerusalem (more commonly referred to as Mount Zion).

This type of coin is in fact well-attested in the archaeological record. However, one of the lead professors associated with this find, Shimon Gibson, is quoted in the press release as saying

“The coin is exceptional,” said Gibson, “because this is the first time that a coin of this kind has turned up in Jerusalem in a scientific dig. Coins of this type are usually only found in private collections, where we don’t have clear evidence as to place of origin.” 

Although the book of Revelation was, of course, written in Greek, scholars have recognized that a Greek form of Nero’s name, Νέρων Καῖσαρ (Neron Caesar), when rendered into Hebrew/Aramaic¹ as נרון קסר, gives us a combined value of 666: 50 + 200 + 6 + 50 + 100 + 60 + 200.²

Read More 

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/atheology/2016/09/first-century-coin-of-nero-found-in-jerusalem-the-mark-of-the-beast/

Your thoughts

[Uriah]

Hi Larry,

Not sure what you intended with the Josephus reference. I am not aware of him naming Nero as the anti-Christ. Shimon Gibson found a nice coin. yet he is yet another modern day writer taking a stab at explaining things in Revelation. He uses the preterist method of changing Greek to Hebrew to make the thing work. I have a picture of a scroll fragment of Revelation showing the name is 616, which is beast, not Nero and the link takes to a quotation by yet another preterist. 

As I said in the last post writers quoting each other in a circle. NO documented ancient source of any such decree. Decius decreed the first of empire wide persecution against Christians but it was not until 249 A.D. and it wasn't about buying and selling and exempted Jews.

All this and still no report of Nero being taken alive and thrown into a lake of fire. I can think of perhaps 5 "church fathers" that don't even concur in the least with the pre 70 A.D writing of Revelation, though.

[canada]

I believe, according to Hebrew gematria, when a Nun is a "final", it is valued at 700 by itself (Nrn Qsr).

Have you wondered why God did not tell John of Patmos the language or numeric system to be used to count the number?

 

Edited March 4, 2019 by canada
bold

[Uriah]

Hi Canada, 

Thanks for that. I had merely assumed that it should be done using the same language it was written in. We do that for the rest of scripture.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Larry H.

It would appear that my request has fallen upon deaf ears. I'll repeat:

On 3/1/2019 at 1:34 PM, Retrobyter said:

Please define for me, as well as you can, what you mean by "spiritual."

 

[Larry H]

10 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hi Larry,

Not sure what you intended with the Josephus reference. I am not aware of him naming Nero as the anti-Christ. Shimon Gibson found a nice coin. yet he is yet another modern day writer taking a stab at explaining things in Revelation. He uses the preterist method of changing Greek to Hebrew to make the thing work. I have a picture of a scroll fragment of Revelation showing the name is 616, which is beast, not Nero and the link takes to a quotation by yet another preterist. 

As I said in the last post writers quoting each other in a circle. NO documented ancient source of any such decree. Decius decreed the first of empire wide persecution against Christians but it was not until 249 A.D. and it wasn't about buying and selling and exempted Jews.

All this and still no report of Nero being taken alive and thrown into a lake of fire. I can think of perhaps 5 "church fathers" that don't even concur in the least with the pre 70 A.D writing of Revelation, though.

Hi Uriah

Nero cannot be the anti-Christ, because there were many anti-Christ, and the Anti-Christ idiom is not mentioned in the book of Revelation.

I personally don't believe everything said in the articles presented,. but Nero is the best choice for the beast of Revelation in my estimation. 

Where was it said that it was Nero was thrown in the lake of fire, perhaps it can by cut and paste from a previous post. 

 

Revelation. Here are some consideration according to the preterist view.

The book was specially written to the Seven churches in first century Asia,  not to the universal church we see today. Rev. 1:4,11. It was penned to their state of affairs, not ours, if not how could they be blessed by the words therein. Rev.1:3

The time indicators are literally imminent occurrences in the first century. Rev. 1:1,3.  The first century Christian reading the time indicators as day was a day not thousands of years later. A thousand years may be in God's but not to those he wrote. It would be irrelevant to them  to read a letter that was really meant to a people thousands of years later.

The theme of the book is Revelation 1:7 "Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen!" Young's Literal Translation

Your thoughts