Larry H Posted March 9, 2019 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 119 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 20 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/17/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 9, 2019 10 hours ago, Uriah said: Hello Larry, Regardless of a single word, the scenario presented is one of cataclysmic proportions world wide. Barth references are talking about the same thing.. Same coming in the clouds as Rev. 1:7. Two more comings of Christ is the pre-trib error, not a post-trib position. Heb. 9:28-So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. There is no third time. Zec. 12:10 is not disconnected from v.9,9, or 7. The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. THEN, in v.10 they see Him whom the have pierced. THEN they will bitterly mourn. These things have not happened yet. Hi Uriah Zechariah 12:3 And it shall happen in that day that I will make Jerusalem a very heavy stone for all peoples; all who would heave it away will surely be cut in pieces, though all nations of the earth are gathered against it. NKJV "Does it mean that America will fight against Jerusalem? If not, why not? Or mean that the 17 smallest countries in the world, most of which have no armies, will join the battle? If, after all, one is going to insist that “all the nations” means literally, every nation on earth, then to be consistent, one must argue that every South American country, the USA and every other country on the globe will join in" You see Uriah Rome was not alone "In fact, Josephus records that Titus had ten cohorts of auxiliary troops from kings of different countries, such as Arabia, Syria and other countries (Wars, Bk. 4, chapter 4, Whiston, p. 642). In other words, it was the kings of the earth that gathered against literal Jerusalem!" You're up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uriah Posted March 10, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,364 Content Per Day: 0.59 Reputation: 277 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/03/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted March 10, 2019 (edited) Hi Larry, Zec. 12:3- On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. This single passage is about Jerusalem and those who try to "move"it. How does one move it? You move its borders, the very thing they are trying to do in our time. So this is another kind of gathering, likely at the UN. They will incur divine judgment for dividing HIS land according to scripture. Whether or not America will fight against Israel, I cannot say for sure. I do believe that some of the countries present at Megiddo will be motivated to fight other nations and will still have the plan to occupy Israel. Interestingly, Grant Jeffrey, in his research, stated that the 200 million number from the "stan" countries combined with the ones that ARE listed elsewhere in scripture. Now in the next chapter it indeed says He will gather all nations to battle. However, further in the chapter it describes the actions of all the nations who attacked Jerusalem. This could indicate that others did not. Edited March 10, 2019 by Uriah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry H Posted March 11, 2019 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 119 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 20 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/17/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 11, 2019 On 3/9/2019 at 4:14 PM, Uriah said: Hi Larry, Zec. 12:3- On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. This single passage is about Jerusalem and those who try to "move"it. How does one move it? You move its borders, the very thing they are trying to do in our time. So this is another kind of gathering, likely at the UN. They will incur divine judgment for dividing HIS land according to scripture. Whether or not America will fight against Israel, I cannot say for sure. I do believe that some of the countries present at Megiddo will be motivated to fight other nations and will still have the plan to occupy Israel. Interestingly, Grant Jeffrey, in his research, stated that the 200 million number from the "stan" countries combined with the ones that ARE listed elsewhere in scripture. Now in the next chapter it indeed says He will gather all nations to battle. However, further in the chapter it describes the actions of all the nations who attacked Jerusalem. This could indicate that others did not. Hi Uriah Allies of Rome Zechariah 14:2 For I WILL GATHER ALL THE NATIONS to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, THE HOUSES RIFLED, And the WOMEN RAVISHED. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. NKJV 1 "In fact, JOSEPHUS RECORDS THAT TITUS HAD TEN COHORTS OF AUXILIARY TROOPS FROM KINGS OF DIFFERENT COUNTRIES, SUCH AS ARABIA, SYRIA AND OTHER COUNTRIES (Wars, Bk. 4, chapter 4, Whiston, p. 642). In other words, it was the KINGS OF THE EARTH THAT GATHERED AGAINST LITERAL JERUSALEM!" 2 For I will gather all the nations.....Roman Allies. Usually, defeated peoples became "allies" of the Romans with loyalties strengthened by Roman. 3 "the houses plundered" Matthew 24:17 4 "the women ravished" Luke 17:35 5 Luke 23:28 Jesus turned and said to them, "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; WEEP FOR YOURSELVES AND FOR YOUR CHILDREN. Zechariah 14:2 [I will gather all nations] The Romans, whose armies were composed of all the nations of the world. In this verse there is a pitiful account given of the horrible outrages which should be committed during the siege of Jerusalem, and at its capture. [The residue of the people shall not be cut off] Many were preserved for slaves, and for exhibition in the provincial theatres. Adam Clarke's Commentary Quote This single passage is about Jerusalem and those who try to "move"it. How does one move it? You move its borders, the very thing they are trying to do in our time. So this is another kind of gathering, likely at the UN. They will incur divine judgment for dividing HIS land according to scripture. It is important to note that there is nothing we can do to speed up, move in time, God’s prophetic timetable. God alone is in control of the timetable, and it is perfectly designed—not one moment too soon, and not one moment too late.". Matthew 24:Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" Matthew 24:36 No One Knows the Day or Hour (Mark 13:32-37; Luke 17:26,27,34,35; 21:34-36) "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. In context of the verses, of the day or hour no one knew about, Christ coming in Judgement of an apostate Nation finalized, the end of the Mosaic Economy, by the destruction of the temple AD 70 Daniel 12 7:"when the power of the holy people [ the chosen nation ...Jewish] has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished ........"Not one stone upon another" Daniel 12:11 "And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away. Thoughts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uriah Posted March 12, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,364 Content Per Day: 0.59 Reputation: 277 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/03/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted March 12, 2019 Hi Larry, My thoughts are about Zec. 14:3- Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And v. 4- And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. v. 5- And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. v. 6- And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: v.7- But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. v.9- And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. v. 10- And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. But you left these out. They are in the context of the bit you posted. This is cherry picking for people that won't check on it. Did any of THESE things happen? No. This again forces TWO comings of Jesus, a pre trib error. Heb 9:28- So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. There is NO third time. Jesus speaks of two time periods, what would happen by 70 A.D. and then when He returns. You seem to be walking me through the preterist catalog of isolated and out of context quotes, with blatantly un-fulfilled MAJOR events. The Mount of Olives still seems quite intact, no record of a planet wide "Day" of neither day or night, and the Lord going out to fight the nations who are attacking Jerusalem etc. You can find a body of writing on how Dan. 12:9-13 was fulfilled in the days of the Macabees under Antiochus too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry H Posted March 12, 2019 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 119 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 20 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/17/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 12, 2019 4 hours ago, Uriah said: Hi Larry, My thoughts are about Zec. 14:3- Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And v. 4- And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. v. 5- And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. v. 6- And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: v.7- But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. v.9- And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. v. 10- And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. But you left these out. They are in the context of the bit you posted. This is cherry picking for people that won't check on it. Did any of THESE things happen? No. This again forces TWO comings of Jesus, a pre trib error. Heb 9:28- So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. There is NO third time. Jesus speaks of two time periods, what would happen by 70 A.D. and then when He returns. You seem to be walking me through the preterist catalog of isolated and out of context quotes, with blatantly un-fulfilled MAJOR events. The Mount of Olives still seems quite intact, no record of a planet wide "Day" of neither day or night, and the Lord going out to fight the nations who are attacking Jerusalem etc. You can find a body of writing on how Dan. 12:9-13 was fulfilled in the days of the Macabees under Antiochus too. Hi again Uriah Please try to take your time and read it all. Did God take vengeance on the Nations who sacked Jerusalem after using the Roman armies to accomplish His Divine purpose of the destruction of Jerusalem. Will get to that. Did the Apostles Know the Post Trib end times theology in the order it is presented today, or was it revealed at a latter date. How can I go further if you have not at yet responded to my last post. The only response I got was CHERRY PICKING, OR SLEIGHT OF HAND. Walking through the cataloger etc stuff of that kind. Did you figure the statements out by yourself, or heard it from someone else. ☺️ So here goes again You don't have to see it to believe it, a good encyclopedia will tell you all about it. Allies of Rome Zechariah 14:2 For I WILL GATHER ALL THE NATIONS to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, THE HOUSES RIFLED, And the WOMEN RAVISHED. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 1 "In fact, JOSEPHUS RECORDS THAT TITUS HAD TEN COHORTS OF AUXILIARY TROOPS FROM KINGS OF DIFFERENT COUNTRIES, SUCH AS ARABIA, SYRIA AND OTHER COUNTRIES (Wars, Bk. 4, chapter 4, Whiston, p. 642). In other words, it was the KINGS OF THE EARTH THAT GATHERED AGAINST LITERAL JERUSALEM!" 2 For I will gather all the nations.....Roman Allies. Usually, defeated peoples became "allies" of the Romans with loyalties strengthened by Roman. 3 "the houses plundered" Matthew 24:17 4 "the women ravished" Luke 17:35 5 Luke 23:28 Jesus turned and said to them, "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; WEEP FOR YOURSELVES AND FOR YOUR CHILDREN. Zechariah 14:2 [I will gather all nations] The Romans, whose armies were composed of all the nations of the world. In this verse there is a pitiful account given of the horrible outrages which should be committed during the siege of Jerusalem, and at its capture. [The residue of the people shall not be cut off] Many were preserved for slaves, and for exhibition in the provincial theatres. Adam Clarke's Commentary Quote Quote This single passage is about Jerusalem and those who try to "move"it. How does one move it? You move its borders, the very thing they are trying to do in our time. So this is another kind of gathering, likely at the UN. They will incur divine judgment for dividing HIS land according to scripture. What scripture, and who predicted this stuff about the UN. It is important to note that there is nothing we can do to speed up, move in time, God’s prophetic timetable. God alone is in control of the timetable, and it is perfectly designed—not one moment too soon, and not one moment too late.". Matthew 24:Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" Quote Matthew 24:36 No One Knows the Day or Hour (Mark 13:32-37; Luke 17:26,27,34,35; 21:34-36) "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. In context with the chapter, of the day or hour no one knew about, Christ coming in Judgement of an apostate Nation finalized, the end of the Mosaic Economy, by the destruction of the temple AD 70. Matthew 24:3 when will these things be? what things Matthew 24:3 the end of the age Daniel 12 7:"when the power of the holy people [ the chosen nation ...Jewish] has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished ........"Not one stone upon another" Daniel 12:11 "And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away. Stay with me I'll get to those other verses you referenced in due time. Your Up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uriah Posted March 13, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,364 Content Per Day: 0.59 Reputation: 277 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/03/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted March 13, 2019 18 hours ago, Larry H said: ... I'll get to those other verses you referenced in due time. Those other verses have already voided the preterist position. The sentences you left out are NOT disconnected for the one you posted and they ruin the preterist argument. The comments I make are from nobody else but me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry H Posted March 13, 2019 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 119 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 20 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/17/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 13, 2019 2 hours ago, Uriah said: Those other verses have already voided the preterist position. The sentences you left out are NOT disconnected for the one you posted and they ruin the preterist argument. The comments I make are from nobody else but me. Uriah I'll give you the last word, thanks for your time. I Peter 3:15 Kind Regards Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry H Posted March 14, 2019 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 119 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 20 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/17/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 14, 2019 Greeting If anyone is interested, and uneducated in Preterism, this advocate, Gary DeMar, gives his understanding on Zechariah 14. Feel free to challenge this view taking the opportunity to do so. So it can be compared with other theologies, post tribulationist and the like, who oppose this growing dogma concerning preterism. There are notes taken from different resource at the end this authors article. I believe he does a good job in answering question usually used to debunk the preterist concepts. Enjoy Zechariah 14 and the Coming of Christ By Gary DeMar 2001 Zechariah 14 and the Coming of Christ By Gary DeMar 2001 In the premillennial view of Bible prophecy, the events depicted in Zechariah 14 are most often interpreted as depicting the second coming of Christ when Jesus will descend from heaven and stand on the Mount of Olives and from there set up His millennial kingdom. The chronology outlined in Zechariah, however, does not fit this scenario. Events actually begin in chapter thirteen where it is prophesied that the Shepherd, Jesus, will be struck and the sheep will be scattered (Zech. 13:7). This was fulfilled when Jesus says, “‘You will all fall away, because it is written, “I WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP SHALL BE SCATTERED”‘” (Mark 14:27). What follows describes events leading up to and including the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. God will act as Judge of Jerusalem and its inhabitants. As the king, He will send “his armies” and destroy “those murderers, and set their city on fire” (Matt. 22:7). For I will gather all the nations [the Roman armies] against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered [Matt. 24:17], the women ravished [Luke 17:35], and half the city exiled [Matt. 24:16], but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city” (Zech. 14:2). This happened when the Roman armies, made up of soldiers from the nations it conquered, went to war against Jerusalem. Rome was an empire consisting of all the known nations of the world (see Luke 2:1). The Roman Empire “extended roughly two thousand miles from Scotland south to the headwaters of the Nile and about three thousand miles from the Pillars of Hercules eastward to the sands of Persia. Its citizens and subject peoples numbered perhaps eighty million.”1 Rome was raised up, like Assyria, to be the “rod of [His] anger” (Isa. 10:5). “So completely shall the city be taken that the enemy shall sit down in the midst of her to divide the spoil. All nations (2), generally speaking were represented in the invading army, for Rome was the mistress of many lands.”2 Thomas Scott, using supporting references from older commentators and cross references to other biblical books, writes that Zechariah is describing the events surrounding Jerusalem’s destruction in A.D. 70. The time when the Romans marched their armies, composed of many nations, to besiege Jerusalem, was “the day of the Lord” Jesus, on which he came to “destroy those that would not that he should reign over them” [Matt. 22:10; 24:3, 23-35; Luke 19:11 27, 41-44]. When the Romans had taken the city, all the outrages were committed, and the miseries endured, which are here predicted [Luke 21:20-24]. A very large proportion of the inhabitants were destroyed, or taken captives, and sold for slaves; and multitudes were driven away to be pursued by various perils and miseries: numbers also, having been converted to Christianity, became citizens of “the heavenly Jerusalem” and thus were “not cut off from the city” of God [Gal. 4:21-31; Heb. 12:22-25].3 Forcing these series of descriptive judgment to leap over the historical realities of Jerusalem’s destruction in A.D. 70 so as to fit a future judgment scenario is contrived and unnecessary. Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle (14:3). After using Rome as His rod to smite Jerusalem, God turns on Rome in judgment. Once again, Assyria is the model: “I send it against a godless nation and commission it against the people of My fury to capture booty and to seize plunder, and to trample them down like mud in the streets . . . . So it will be that when the Lord has completed all His work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, He will say, ‘I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the pomp of his haughtiness'” (Isa. 10:56, 12-13). “It is significant that the decline of the Roman Empire dates from the fall of Jerusalem.”4 Thomas Scott concurs: “It is also observable, that the Romans after having been thus made the executioners of divine vengeance on the Jewish nation, never prospered as they had done before; but the Lord evidently fought against them, and all the nations which composed their overgrown empire; till at last it was subverted, and their fairest cities and provinces were ravaged by barbarous invaders.”5 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south (Zech. 14:4). It is this passage that dispensationalists use to support their view that Jesus will touch down on planet earth and set up His millennial kingdom. Numerous times in the Bible we read of Jehovah “coming down” to meet with His people. In most instances His coming is one of judgment; in no case was He physically present. Notice how many times God’s coming is associated with mountains. “And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. . . . Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech” (Gen. 11:5, 7). “So I have come down to deliver them from the power of the Egyptians, and to bring them up from that land to a good and spacious land, to a land flowing with milk and honey. . . (Ex. 3:8). “Then Thou didst come down on Mount Sinai, and didst speak with them from heaven. . . (Neh. 9:13 a). “Bow Thy heavens, O LORD, and come down; touch the mountains, that they may smoke” (Psalm 144:5). “For thus says the LORD to me, ‘As the lion or the young lion growls over his prey, against which a band of shepherds is called out, will not be terrified at their voice, nor disturbed at their noise, so will the LORD of hosts come down to wage war on Mount Zion and on its hill'” (Isa. 31:4). “Oh, that Thou wouldst rend the heavens and come down, that the mountains might quake at Thy presence” (Isa. 64:1). “When Thou didst awesome things which we did not expect, Thou didst come down, the mountains quaked at Thy presence” (Isa. 64:3). In Micah 1:3 we are told that God “is coming forth from His place” to “come down and tread on the high places of the earth.” How is this descriptive language different from the Lord standing on the Mount of Olives with the result that it will split? Micah says “the mountains will melt under Him, and the valleys will be split, like wax before the fire, like water poured down a steep place” (1:4). “It was not uncommon for prophets to use figurative expressions about the Lord ‘coming’ down, mountains trembling, being scattered, and hills bowing (Hab. 3:6, 10) mountains flowing down at his presence (Isaiah 64:1, 3); or mountains and hills singing and the trees clapping their hands (Isaiah 55:12).”6 What is the Bible trying to teach us with this descriptive language of the Mount of Olives “split in its middle”? The earliest Christian writers applied Zechariah 14:4 to the work of Christ in His day. Tertullian wrote: “‘But at night He went out to the Mount of Olives.’ For thus had Zechariah pointed out: ‘And His feet shall stand in that day on the Mount of Olives’ [Zech. xiv. 4].”7 Tertullian was alluding to the fact that the Olivet prophecy set the stage for the judgment-coming of Christ that would once for all break down the Jewish/Gentile division. Matthew Henry explains the theology behind the prophecy: The partition-wall between Jew and Gentiles shall be taken away. The mountains about Jerusalem, and particularly this, signified it to be an enclosure, and that it stood in the way of those who would approach to it. Between the Gentiles and Jerusalem this mountain of Bether, of division, stood, Cant. ii. 17. But by the destruction of Jerusalem this mountain shall be made to cleave in the midst, and so the Jewish pale shall be taken down, and the church laid in common with the Gentiles, who were made one with the Jews by the breaking down of this middle wall of partition, Eph. ii. 14.8 You will notice that there is no mention of a thousand year reign. Yet, we are told that “the LORD will be king over all the earth” (14:9). So what is new about this language? “For the LORD Most High is to be feared, a great King over all the earth. He subdues peoples under us, and nations under our feet” (Psalm 47:2, 3). This is exactly what happened with the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. Paul told the Roman Christians that “the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet” (Rom. 16:20). The church’s adversary (Satan) were those Jews who rejected Jesus as the Messiah and persecuted His Bride, the church (see John 16:2). Jesus calls them a “synagogue of Satan” (Rev. 3:9). Thanks for reading NOTES 1. Otto Friedrich, The End of the World: A History (New York: Coward, McCann and Geoghegan, 1982), 28. 2. G. N. M. Collins, “Zechariah,” The New Bible Commentary, F. Davidson, ed., 2nd ed. (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1954), 761. 3. Thomas Scott, The Holy Bible, Containing the Old and New Testaments, According to the Authorised Version; with Explanatory notes, Practical Observations, and Copious Marginal References, 3 vols. (New York: Collins and Hannay, 1832), 2:955 4. Collins, “Zechariah,” 761. 5. Scott, The Holy Bible, etc., 956. 6. Ralph Woodrow, His Truth is Marching On: Advanced Studies on Prophecy in the Light of History (Riverside, CA: Ralph Woodrow Evangelistic Association, 1977), 110. 7. “Tertullian Against Marcion,” Book 4, chapter XL, in The Ante-Nicene Fathers, 3:417. 8. Matthew Henry, Matthew Henry’s Commentary on the Whole Bible, 6 vols. (New York: Fleming H. Revell, n.d.), 4:1468. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry H Posted March 16, 2019 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 119 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 20 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/17/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 16, 2019 Greetings There is a battle going on .... on the internet by two esteemed authors of Full Preterism. But not appreciated by Partial Preterist or the Christian community. They are called Heretics.....meaning they differs in opinion from established religious dogma. The subject matter is ...... Rapture or no Rapture Don Preston ......No Rapture Ed Stevens ........A literal first century Rapture, taken off the planet to meet the Lord in the air. Many Preterist have already taken side, forming groups, and are allowed comments negative or positive. Depending on who's side one takes. Or the dogma against preterism when all's said and done. Here are the first few chapters by Don Preston. Feel free to respond. AD 70: Rapture or No Rapture Here is Part of Don K. Preston’s First Affirmative My proposition: “The Bible teaches that 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, i.e. the coming of Christ at His parousia in A.D. 70, was the return of God to man, to dwell forever, reuniting heaven and earth in spiritual fellowship and life, versus a departure or removal of the then living saints from the earth.” I am affirming a bit of a negative, but, Ed and I have agreed that this is acceptable for this discussion. I am honored to participate in this discussion and know that it will be a cordial exchange of ideas. Let me define my terms: By “The Bible” I mean the 66 books of the Bible, both Old Covenant and New. By Teaches: I mean imparts understanding and the reality of truths. By 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18- I believe this is self-explanatory. By “the coming of Christ at His parousia in A.D. 70” - I mean what is commonly referred to as Christ’s “second appearing” which was “for salvation” (Hebrews 9:28). Ed and I are both full preterists, believing that Christ’s end of the age coming and the resurrection occurred in AD 70. By “reuniting heaven and earth in spiritual fellowship and life” - By this I mean that as a result of the Adamic Curse of the Death of Genesis 2:15-17, heaven and earth were divided, separated from one another due to that sin and death. Fellowship between man on earth and God in heaven was broken and forfeited. It was thus God’s eternal plan and purpose that fellowship between man on earth and God in heaven would be restored by Christ and in Christ (Ephesians 1:9f). By, “versus a departure or removal of the then living saints from the earth” - I mean that there was not a physical removal of the then living saints (living in AD 70) from the earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry H Posted March 17, 2019 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 119 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 20 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/17/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 17, 2019 For those who want to take a break from their a comfort zone in systematic theology. Feel Free "scriptural speaking" to show evidence this dogma is erroneous. It will be hard to get a grip on this "Part 2" without considering part 1 in in the mean time. This is part 2 Of Don Preston's affirmative 1. So, my position is that at the coming of the Lord in AD 70 the fellowship that was forfeited (lost) through the sin and the death of Adam (and Eve) was restored. Heaven and earth were reunited in fellowship. It is my contention that since it was fellowship between man on earth and God in heaven that was lost, that there was no need whatsoever for any of the saints (living in AD 70 or at any other time) to be “raptured” removed from the earth. All that was needed, all that was foretold, was that the fellowship between man on earth and God in heaven would be restored. This goes to the very definition of “parousia” the presence of Christ. 2. What this debate is NOT about. It is NOT about the nature of the resurrected body of Christ. It is NOT even about the nature of our body in heaven. It is about whether the saints, alive in AD 70, were removed from the earth. 3. Let me state my affirmative in the following manner: If the goal of Biblical eschatology was the restoration of what was lost through sin and the death of Adam And, If fellowship between man on earth and God in heaven is what was lost through sin and the death of Adam, Then, it must be true that the goal of Biblical eschatology was the restoration of the fellowship between man on earth and God in heaven. That argument leads to this: It is true that the goal of Biblical eschatology was the restoration of what was lost through sin and the death of Adam. It is true that fellowship between man on earth and God in heaven is what was lost through sin and the death of Adam, Therefore, it must be true that the goal of Biblical eschatology was the restoration of the fellowship between man on earth and God in heaven. 4. Now, there is virtually no debate as to whether the goal of Biblical eschatology is the restoration of what was lost through sin and the death of Adam- (Romans 5 / 1 Corinthians 15:22). If Ed wishes to deny that this is true, he can make his argument. 5. There is likewise virtually no debate as to whether fellowship between man on earth and God in heaven was lost through sin and the death of Adam. If Ed wishes to differ with this and challenge it, he can present his arguments. 6. Ed believes that what was lost through Adam’s sin and death was more than fellowship between man on earth and God in heaven. I asked him about the death that God threatened Adam with for sinning. I asked him if that death included physical death; he said it did. This logically demands that the threat of death included two deaths: (Ed says it was actually three). ☛ Spiritual death, i.e. alienation and separation from God. ☛ Physical death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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