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Larry H

PRETERISM THE NEW FRONTIER

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7 minutes ago, Larry H said:

Tell George I apologize  even though I don't think he took it the wrong way.  ;)       

I didn't take it any way ... listen I love you as a brother in the Lord ... and we don't yet see eye to eye on things as of yet, but my hope is that we can have a sincere conversation in love.  :)

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On 1/11/2019 at 12:32 PM, Larry H said:

I agree He went up in a cloud in like manner returned in a cloud in judgment on an apostate Nation. Just as God did in the OT on Egypt. As one commentator said "He was not riding of a cloud to Disney Land."

Isaiah 19:1 An oracle concerning Egypt: See, the LORD rides on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt. The idols of Egypt tremble before him, and the hearts of the Egyptians melt within them.

I to don't like labels, but that seems to be the way it comes out when posting. It's a short cut like Trinitarian, to cover ground that's all. I see George with a good sense of humor and in like manner I post. No harm was intended. I would appreciate being called a bible student myself with not all the answers. Just like yourself.

Tell George I apologize  even though I don't think he took it the wrong way.  ;)                       

Sorry to be so long in returning here Larry.  Jesus might come back in a cloud of witnesses....or a cloud of glory.....or a cloud of the heavenly host so numerous they will look like a cloud from a distance.  Or all of the above.  Probably was that kind of cloud He ascended in when he was being received into heaven and it only appeared like a cloud to the physical eye.

But I fear you have not been "hearing" my point, about the word of God and prophecy being alive and active, and alluding to more than one thing at once.....and about the principle of first the natural, then the spiritual.  The things having to do with Israel being "the natural"....she is our ensample/similitude/living parable in scripture....everything to do with Israel was prophetic for the church.  The things having to do with the church being "the spiritual".  If it happened in the natural realm to Israel, it will also be fulfilled in the spiritual realm as concerns the church.  Baptism is an example of this principle....the reason we are baptized in the natural physical realm is in order to seal our salvation/washing prophetically in the spiritual realm.  I should have mentioned that before......and just wanted to remind you to consider this principle.

Also...you mentioned a while back about the apostles using terms like the "last hour" and the "last time".......thankfully I might have an answer to that, it only came to my attention yesterday.  I've forgotten the math and other details associated with those things, it's been a long time since I happened to be looking at that in Daniel.  But see what you and others think........remember the 70th week of Daniel....the clock stopped ticking with the crucifixion I believe it was, and it has been the beginning of that last hour so to speak for the past 2000 years.....suspended.  The clock will begin ticking again....not sure exactly when, might be when the new Temple is dedicated.  Everything that Jesus and the apostles spoke on and taught came from the old testament revealed, and this was one of those things....pretty sure they got that from Daniel.  When I was reminded of it yesterday, listening to someone speak on it.....my spirit seemed to witness to it....so I leave it with you to consider as well.

Edited by Heleadethme

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7 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

Sorry to be so long in returning here Larry.  Jesus might come back in a cloud of witnesses....or a cloud of glory.....or a cloud of the heavenly host so numerous they will look like a cloud from a distance.  Or all of the above.  Probably was that kind of cloud He ascended in when he was being received into heaven and it only appeared like a cloud to the physical eye.

But I fear you have not been "hearing" my point, about the word of God and prophecy being alive and active, and alluding to more than one thing at once.....and about the principle of first the natural, then the spiritual.  The things having to do with Israel being "the natural"....she is our ensample/similitude/living parable in scripture....everything to do with Israel was prophetic for the church.  The things having to do with the church being "the spiritual".  If it happened in the natural realm to Israel, it will also be fulfilled in the spiritual realm as concerns the church.  Baptism is an example of this principle....the reason we are baptized in the natural physical realm is in order to seal our salvation/washing prophetically in the spiritual realm.  I should have mentioned that before......and just wanted to remind you to consider this principle.

Also...you mentioned a while back about the apostles using terms like the "last hour" and the "last time".......thankfully I might have an answer to that, it only came to my attention yesterday.  I've forgotten the math and other details associated with those things, it's been a long time since I happened to be looking at that in Daniel.  But see what you and others think........remember the 70th week of Daniel....the clock stopped ticking with the crucifixion I believe it was, and it has been the beginning of that last hour so to speak for the past 2000 years.....suspended.  The clock will begin ticking again....not sure exactly when, might be when the new Temple is dedicated.  Everything that Jesus and the apostles spoke on and taught came from the old testament revealed, and this was one of those things....pretty sure they got that from Daniel.  When I was reminded of it yesterday, listening to someone speak on it.....my spirit seemed to witness to it....so I leave it with you to consider as well.

Quote

Jesus might come back in a cloud of witnesses....or a cloud of glory.....or a cloud of the heavenly host so numerous they will look like a cloud from a distance

Good to hear from you, I would choose the first century coming on clouds glory that was witnessed in the first century. obviously not the distant future. Unless these people were resurrected in our future prior to the event.

 Matthew 26:64 "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

The is the same way in the OT God would come, whether symbolically of literally in some sort of way in like manner in judgment upon a nation. I.e.  in this case the first century Israel.

Isaiah 19:1 An oracle concerning Egypt: See, the LORD rides on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt. The idols of Egypt tremble before him, and the hearts of the Egyptians melt within them.

Quote

But I fear you have not been "hearing" my point, about the word of God and prophecy being alive and active, and alluding to more than one thing at once.....and about the principle of first the natural, then the spiritual. 

"everything to do with Israel was prophetic for the church" 

If you have not already done so add 1 Cor.10:1-6 and you will see I was paying attention to your posting on this principle of subject matter. Perhaps you can add these verses in to prove your point. 

Quote

Also...you mentioned a while back about the apostles using terms like the "last hour" and the "last time".......thankfully I might have an answer to that, it only came to my attention yesterday. 

As for the last days idiom, they began and ended ,as Jesus said it would, in the first century. Matthew 24:1-3 Since I believe it was referring to the end of the OC dispensation that was realized by the destruction of the temple in AD 70. 

Meantime you may want to read some more of them, here are 13 out of 101 of those idioms. Keeping in mind If God wanted to say something was imminent how else would He say it.  As for the parables you mentioned, look at the 11th in the list.
 

1. "The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." (Matt. 3:2)

2. "Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?" (Matt. 3:7)

3. "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees." (Matt. 3:10)

4. "His winnowing fork is in His hand." (Matt. 3:12)

5. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 4:17)

6. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 10:7)

7. "You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." (Matt. 10:23)

8. "....the age about to come." (Matt. 12:32)

9. "The Son of Man is about to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds." (Matt. 16:27)

10. "There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Matt. 16:28; cf. Mk. 9:1; Lk. 9:27)

11. "'When the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?'  '....He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers, who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons.'  '....Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it.'  ....When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them." (Matt. 21:40-41,43,45)

12. "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Matt. 24:34)

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8 hours ago, Larry H said:

Good to hear from you, I would choose the first century coming on clouds glory that was witnessed in the first century. obviously not the distant future. Unless these people were resurrected in our future prior to the event.

 Matthew 26:64 "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

The is the same way in the OT God would come, whether symbolically of literally in some sort of way in like manner in judgment upon a nation. I.e.  in this case the first century Israel.

Isaiah 19:1 An oracle concerning Egypt: See, the LORD rides on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt. The idols of Egypt tremble before him, and the hearts of the Egyptians melt within them.

"everything to do with Israel was prophetic for the church" 

If you have not already done so add 1 Cor.10:1-6 and you will see I was paying attention to your posting on this principle of subject matter. Perhaps you can add these verses in to prove your point. 

As for the last days idiom, they began and ended ,as Jesus said it would, in the first century. Matthew 24:1-3 Since I believe it was referring to the end of the OC dispensation that was realized by the destruction of the temple in AD 70. 

Meantime you may want to read some more of them, here are 13 out of 101 of those idioms. Keeping in mind If God wanted to say something was imminent how else would He say it.  As for the parables you mentioned, look at the 11th in the list.
 

1. "The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." (Matt. 3:2)

2. "Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?" (Matt. 3:7)

3. "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees." (Matt. 3:10)

4. "His winnowing fork is in His hand." (Matt. 3:12)

5. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 4:17)

6. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 10:7)

7. "You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." (Matt. 10:23)

8. "....the age about to come." (Matt. 12:32)

9. "The Son of Man is about to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds." (Matt. 16:27)

10. "There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Matt. 16:28; cf. Mk. 9:1; Lk. 9:27)

11. "'When the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?'  '....He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers, who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons.'  '....Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it.'  ....When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them." (Matt. 21:40-41,43,45)

12. "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Matt. 24:34)

Yes, I agree that is all speaking of the end of the age of the Jews......but also as concerns the church......there is the principle of "what has been will be again" (Ecclesiastes) and the times of the Gentiles are coming to a close.  The church is falling away now just the same as Israel (our ensample) fell away and became apostate and full of Babylonish mixture......and God judging the Temple in 70 AD was a type and shadow of Him judging the church just before His coming again...His appearing the second time without sin unto salvation (redemption of our physical bodies.....and actually redemption/restoration of all the physical realm of creation ultimately).  

He is calling His people to "come out of her" (several places in scripture but also in Revelation) just as He said to the early believers....when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies flee to the mountains...let he who is in the field not return and let he who is in the country not enter into Jerusalem......because it is about to be destroyed (physically destroyed as concerned Israel and spiritually destroyed as concerns the church...she is being given over to the delusion.)  There has been a mass exodus in the past two decades or so out of the polluted churches that is unprecedented in all of church history that I know of.  The Lord led me out before I even understood why.  The glory is departing...ichabod.  And the church is being left desolate...in preparation for another spirit, a counterfeit, to take the place of the Holy Spirit....antichrist spirit.  Everything is following the pattern of Israel.

And I want to say thank you for the reminders of all those scriptures....

Edited by Heleadethme
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On 1/10/2019 at 8:59 PM, Larry H said:
On 1/10/2019 at 10:24 AM, WilliamL said:

The kingdom WAS at hand -- and the Jews rejected it, when they "rejected" their king. Can't have a kingdom without a king. 

Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed...

Luke 17:25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

Not all the Jews rejected Him, including the Apostles. Not sure what your getting at. Was it this one from Isaiah 53:3 "He was despised and rejected by men"

Colossians 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,

Revelation 1:9 I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

Matthew 6:10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.

That kingdom hasn't happened yet on earth as it is in heaven.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ...

We can be part of the heavenly Kingdom of God in the Spirit, but the earthly Kingdom of God has yet to be established, because

1 John 5:19 We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

The earthly kingdom is what the Jews rejected when they rejected Jesus as their king. And when they rejected the king and therefore the kingdom, all people lost out, because the kingdom has to be established in Jerusalem.

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11 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

Yes, I agree that is all speaking of the end of the age of the Jews......but also as concerns the church......there is the principle of "what has been will be again" (Ecclesiastes) and the times of the Gentiles are coming to a close.  The church is falling away now just the same as Israel (our ensample) fell away and became apostate and full of Babylonish mixture......and God judging the Temple in 70 AD was a type and shadow of Him judging the church just before His coming again...His appearing the second time without sin unto salvation (redemption of our physical bodies.....and actually redemption/restoration of all the physical realm of creation ultimately).  

He is calling His people to "come out of her" (several places in scripture but also in Revelation) just as He said to the early believers....when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies flee to the mountains...let he who is in the field not return and let he who is in the country not enter into Jerusalem......because it is about to be destroyed (physically destroyed as concerned Israel and spiritually destroyed as concerns the church...she is being given over to the delusion.)  There has been a mass exodus in the past two decades or so out of the polluted churches that is unprecedented in all of church history that I know of.  The Lord led me out before I even understood why.  The glory is departing...ichabod.  And the church is being left desolate...in preparation for another spirit, a counterfeit, to take the place of the Holy Spirit....antichrist spirit.  Everything is following the pattern of Israel.

And I want to say thank you for the reminders of all those scriptures....

"Typical and symbolic nature of the Old Testament"

I appreciate the foremost picture you referred to In my estimation good job well explained.  Stop me if I am wrong, Israel's worship under the OC  shadowed, school mastered, the  good things to come i.e. "the reality found in Christ" Col.2:16,17  "Almost everything, if not everything, in the OT pointed to Him. In like manner the NT points to the second coming.

I'll run with that,  Jesus die to end one age of shadows and symbols,  to set in motion a supplementary age of shadows and symbols. In like manner we have the second coming of Christ in our future ending, finalizing, redemptive history.

It begs the question, were the Apostles aware of this scenario, and where do they verbalize the dual meanings of things..

 

I heard one verse posted to demonstrate a future coming of Christ, by taking it out of the first century, However does it?

 1 Thessalonians 5:3  While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

The question could be asked who are these people that are saying "Peace and Security" in Paul's letter? A commentator Adam Clarke's explains it this way.

[For when they shall say, Peace and safety] This points out, very particularly, the state of the Jewish people when the Romans came against them: and so fully persuaded were they that God would not deliver the city and temple to their enemies, that they refused every overture that was made to them.

[Sudden destruction] In the storming of their city and the burning of their temple, and the massacre of several hundreds of thousands of themselves; the rest being sold for slaves, and the whole of them dispersed over the face of the earth.

Does this make sense.

I want to  thank you for making this interchange interesting by giving me the opportunity to provide another view. By the way the preterist view is not without its problems in their theology. And I am kind of surprise those things have not been posted as of yet. I am studying into them lately. And perhaps in future will be posting the results 

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13 hours ago, Larry H said:

"Typical and symbolic nature of the Old Testament"

I appreciate the foremost picture you referred to In my estimation good job well explained.  Stop me if I am wrong, Israel's worship under the OC  shadowed, school mastered, the  good things to come i.e. "the reality found in Christ" Col.2:16,17  "Almost everything, if not everything, in the OT pointed to Him. In like manner the NT points to the second coming.

I'll run with that,  Jesus die to end one age of shadows and symbols,  to set in motion a supplementary age of shadows and symbols. In like manner we have the second coming of Christ in our future ending, finalizing, redemptive history.

It begs the question, were the Apostles aware of this scenario, and where do they verbalize the dual meanings of things..

 

I heard one verse posted to demonstrate a future coming of Christ, by taking it out of the first century, However does it?

 1 Thessalonians 5:3  While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

The question could be asked who are these people that are saying "Peace and Security" in Paul's letter? A commentator Adam Clarke's explains it this way.

[For when they shall say, Peace and safety] This points out, very particularly, the state of the Jewish people when the Romans came against them: and so fully persuaded were they that God would not deliver the city and temple to their enemies, that they refused every overture that was made to them.

[Sudden destruction] In the storming of their city and the burning of their temple, and the massacre of several hundreds of thousands of themselves; the rest being sold for slaves, and the whole of them dispersed over the face of the earth.

Does this make sense.

I want to  thank you for making this interchange interesting by giving me the opportunity to provide another view. By the way the preterist view is not without its problems in their theology. And I am kind of surprise those things have not been posted as of yet. I am studying into them lately. And perhaps in future will be posting the results 

Yes, I believe the apostles must have understood the dual nature of things in the word of God....it was from their writings that I learned it, through the Holy Spirit.  It was an apostles who wrote that the spiritual doesn't come first, but the natural.  An apostle  wrote that the things written about Israel were ensamples for the church.  And about the first Adam being of the earth earthy (and a figure of who was to come) and the second Adam being spiritual (quickening spirit).  They wrote that the rudimentary (earthly) things of the old covenant were copies of the heavenly/spiritual.  Even the wealth and riches of the old covenant were a type and shadow of the spiritual riches we have in Christ, which things the apostles wrote and must have gleaned from the OT being revealed.

Mat 13:34-35

All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

WHO spake in parables and without a parable did not speak…?  The Word of God made flesh.  His word is chock full of parables.  Israel herself was a living parable of the church to come, in the things that were written down.  And she walked out year after year the living parables of the appointed times…the feasts which are ‘parables’ of the spiritual things to come.

There are things that we can see with our own eyes that are just not fulfilled yet….such as that creation itself would be liberated from bondage to death…..and His coming that will be like lightening and seen by every eye…..and that every knee will bow and confess that He is Lord.  These things and more just have not happened yet.  Some of the heavenly promises we do get to taste of now..…because we have received the earnest of the Spirit, but we have not yet seen the fullness of the Spirit.

Anyway, bless you and may God bless and shine His light on His word as you look into it prayerfully.

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13 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

Yes, I believe the apostles must have understood the dual nature of things in the word of God....it was from their writings that I learned it, through the Holy Spirit.  It was an apostles who wrote that the spiritual doesn't come first, but the natural.  An apostle  wrote that the things written about Israel were ensamples for the church.  And about the first Adam being of the earth earthy (and a figure of who was to come) and the second Adam being spiritual (quickening spirit).  They wrote that the rudimentary (earthly) things of the old covenant were copies of the heavenly/spiritual.  Even the wealth and riches of the old covenant were a type and shadow of the spiritual riches we have in Christ, which things the apostles wrote and must have gleaned from the OT being revealed.

Mat 13:34-35

All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

WHO spake in parables and without a parable did not speak…?  The Word of God made flesh.  His word is chock full of parables.  Israel herself was a living parable of the church to come, in the things that were written down.  And she walked out year after year the living parables of the appointed times…the feasts which are ‘parables’ of the spiritual things to come.

There are things that we can see with our own eyes that are just not fulfilled yet….such as that creation itself would be liberated from bondage to death…..and His coming that will be like lightening and seen by every eye…..and that every knee will bow and confess that He is Lord.  These things and more just have not happened yet.  Some of the heavenly promises we do get to taste of now..…because we have received the earnest of the Spirit, but we have not yet seen the fullness of the Spirit.

Anyway, bless you and may God bless and shine His light on His word as you look into it prayerfully.

I see it this way, there is no evidence the apostles considered a dual twofold prediction concerning the end. Or have multiple meaning of prophecies. Many say I didn't see this or I didn't see that happen in the first century. The simple answer is they didn't see the crucifixion also. So if Jesus predicted that event would soon take place, then they did. Just as He said it would. No matter how those Happenings are interpreted. Or what they represented in the Olivet Discourse.

Matthew 24:34 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

"This generation" expression is about 10 time used in the NT and always refers to the audience of Christ in the first century.

Example

Matthew 23:35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

36 I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation

Audience Relevance is of the most important when considering the NT text.

Quote

And she walked out year after year the living parables of the appointed times…the feasts which are ‘parables’ of the spiritual things to come.

In many places it speaks of thing in the future to come, however it was future to the first century audience and history to us. weather it be spiritual or literal. Matthew was as all the other letters were written between the transitional 40 period between the cross and AD 70. And most if not all were fulfilled in that time frame according to the preterist view of things. Which seems to me to make sense, and not drift into the imagination of those who predicted a no show of Christ. 

God Bless and thank you for the prayer

Edited by Larry H

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8 hours ago, Larry H said:

I see it this way, there is no evidence the apostles considered a dual twofold prediction concerning the end. Or have multiple meaning of prophecies. Many say I didn't see this or I didn't see that happen in the first century. The simple answer is they didn't see the crucifixion also. So if Jesus predicted that event would soon take place, then they did. Just as He said it would. No matter how those Happenings are interpreted. Or what they represented in the Olivet Discourse.

Matthew 24:34 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

"This generation" expression is about 10 time used in the NT and always refers to the audience of Christ in the first century.

Example

Matthew 23:35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

36 I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation

Audience Relevance is of the most important when considering the NT text.

In many places it speaks of thing in the future to come, however it was future to the first century audience and history to us. weather it be spiritual or literal. Matthew was as all the other letters were written between the transitional 40 period between the cross and AD 70. And most if not all were fulfilled in that time frame according to the preterist view of things. Which seems to me to make sense, and not drift into the imagination of those who predicted a no show of Christ. 

God Bless and thank you for the prayer

I'll just leave you with this to ponder Larry.....His word does not pass away.  Bless you.

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 "It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things." 1 Peter 1:12

"the word of the Lord stands forever."  And this is the word that was preached to you".  1 Peter 1:25

Your brother in Christ

Larry

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