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Is it right for a Christian to kill in self defence


backontrack

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4 hours ago, HAZARD said:

GOD INSTITUTED THE DEATH PENALTY.

We, as Christians should ask ourselves, Is the Death penalty lawful in this age? Do men have the right to change the Law's of God? Does God condone the Death Penalty.

When God instituted human government by law after Noah's flood, He gave Noah certain laws by which to govern the human race, and man was then held responsible for self-government (Gen. 9:1-7).

There are six very important laws which God gave Noah and his decendants. These Laws were:

(1) "Be fruitful and multply, and replenish the earth" (Gen. 9:1, 7).

(2) "Into thine hand are they [animals] delivered" (Gen. 9:2).

(3) "Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have i given you all things" (Gen. 9:4).

(4) "The blood thereof shall ye not eat" (Gen. 9:4).

(5) "WHOSOEVER SHEDDETH MAN'S BLOOD, BY MAN SHALL HIS BLOOD BY SHED: for in the image of God made he him" (Gen. 9:5-6).

And last but not least;
(6) "I have established my covenant with you . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . FOR PERPETUAL GENERATIONS . . . the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the "EVERLASTING COVENANT" between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth" (Gen. 9:8-17).

These few laws have been the basis of all laws of God and man in every age since the flood of Noah.
It was at this time God constituted capital punishment, and God has never revoked this particular law, "Whosoever sheddeth man's blood, BY MAN shall HIS BLOOD BE SHED (Gen. 9:5-6)." This law will continue as an eternal law, and as is revealed in (Isiah 11:4-9; 65:20-25) it will be in force even during the Millennium.

That this law will be in force during the Millennium is plainly reaffirmed in (Rom. 13:1-6), in which the apostle Paul taught that even in this age of grace, law-enforcement officers are ordained of God, and that they are His ministers to bear "not the sword in vain" but that they are supposed to "execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."

It is totally necessary for human governments to punish criminals according to the crimes committed. Human governments are part of the moral government of God. That God has instituted human governments to help Him secure this end is not only clear in Gen. 9 and Rom. 13, but also in many other passages (Dan. 2:21; 4:17-25; 5:21; 1 Pet. 2:13-14).

All administrators of human government, when they rule contrary to the law of God will be punished in due time by God for mismanagement of their authority. God never sanctions selfish and wicked administration of authority, and if such continues long it will be overthrown. Men are under obligation to obey human government when, and as long as the requirements are not inconsistent with the moral law's of God.

Christians must always obey "every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the King, as supreem; or unto govenors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evil doers, and for the praise of them that do well. For such is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men" (1 Pet. 2:13-17).

Many Christians argue that it is sinful to partake in politics, that it is contrary to the Bible because human government is maintained by force, and that force is contrary with the spirit of the gospel. These are false theories. Human government was instituted by God as shown above, and Christians are commanded in the New Testament to pay taxes and otherwise support government (Rom. 13:1-7; 1 Pet. 2:13-17).

Some argue the commandment, "Thou shalt not kill" (Deut. 5:17), prevents government from administering capital punishment. The commandment "Thou shalt not kill" means exactly what it says, that men shall not kill any other human being; but, if man sheds another mans blood, in other words, if a man ignores Deut. 5:17, the everlasting covenant law, "whosoever sheds man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed," comes into being.

This same principle applies to mobs, insurrections, rebellions, and all wars that endanger the best good of being and of the universe. It is the right of government and all of its subjects, to use every possible means to suppress all rebellion and wars, which are merely crime turned loose on a massive scale. That war is necessary under certain circumstances is clear from the fact that moral law permits it and God has commanded it. Earthly governments are God's ministers to execute law upon the ungodly and to preserve moral law and government for the good of all, and they are under obligation to make war, if this is the only way to preserve the best public good for all. We know that selfish and unjust war is wholesale murder and the administrators of such wars will be punished by God in due time.

God, in replenishing the human race after the flood of Noah instituted human government and capital punishment for serious crime involving murder. He has never changed this "everlasting covenant" and so, this is still God's will for men and human governments.

Thanks for the good word and scriptures it was good reading.

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6 minutes ago, PepperS said:

What would your answer be if someone were about to kill someone else? IE. If there were a small innocent child in your care, would you kill to save the child and yourself? 

I hope that never happens and pray that no one has to deal with it but in our ungodly world no telling what happens. Guess I would shot to wound not kill if possible.

Edited by backontrack
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1 hour ago, JustPassingThru said:

When God said, whoever sheds mans blood, his blood shall be shed, that was way back in the time of swords, bow and arrows and knives, the commandment is not to commit murder, that is premeditated murder, God gave those innocent of premeditated killing of a person by providing cities of refuge, so..., if some gangbanger comes to kill me for a rite of initiation, or a serial killer, or any other premeditated reason to kill me and I kill them first in self defense, then I have fulfilled the law of God, ...only in reverse!

Jesus said if we think it in our mind we are guilty.

I'm glad God gives me a chance to repent of all my bad thoughts. Thank you God.

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In the Garden of Gethsemene, when Jesus was being arrested, Jesus indicates that it is permissible to come after a robber with swords and clubs. The rationale is that a robber may be armed, therefore, if we pursue a robber it is a good idea to be armed.
John 10:10
10 "The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly."

Matthew 26:55
55 In that hour Jesus said to the multitudes, "Have you come out, as against a robber, with swords and clubs to take Me? I sat daily with you, teaching in the temple, and you did not seize Me."

In the beginning, Jesus disciples were well received and needed no protection.

Luke 9:3-5
3 And He said to them, "Take nothing for the journey, neither staffs nor bag nor bread nor money; and do not have two tunics apiece.
4 Whatever house you enter, stay there, and from there depart.
5 And whoever will not receive you, when you go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet as a testimony against them."

But, before Jesus' arrest, Jesus told the disciples that there would be much hostility towards them and they would need protection, for since He would be considered a transgressor, as His followers, they would be considered transgressors.

Luke 22:35-38
35 And He said to them, "When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?" So they said, "Nothing."
36 Then He said to them, "But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.
37 For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.' For the things concerning Me have an end."
38 So they said, "Lord, look, here are two swords." And He said to them, "It is enough."

Some say that the swords mentioned here are spiritual swords that Jesus is talking about. I guess that the ear of the high priest's servant that Peter cut off was a spiritual ear.

Luke 22:49-50
49 When those around Him saw what was going to happen, they said to Him, "Lord, shall we strike with the sword?"
50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest and cut off his right ear.

After this, Jesus tells Peter to put away his sword, because it is foolish to try to oppose the Jews and the Romans by force (often the priests were armed since they were the guardians of the temple). They would surely be cut to pieces. Therefore, if they try to build Christ's kingdom with the sword, they would surely lose the battle and pay with their life. We should live at peace with all men when it is possible. The kingdom of Christ is a spiritual kingdom. Notice, however, that Jesus does not command Peter to throw away his sword, but put it away where it belongs, in it's scabbard at Peter's side, only to be used for lawful self defense.

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A peculiar passage is found in Exodus ...

Exodus 22:2-3  If a thief is found breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there shall be no bloodguilt for him, but if the sun has risen on him, there shall be bloodguilt for him. He shall surely pay. If he has nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.

So if a thief breaks into a house at night ... it seems that you are free from the bloodguilt if he dies, however it appears if it is DAY and the situation changes.   This is the commentary from Keil & Deilzsch whom I consider the foremost commentators of the Hebrew.

"Into the midst of the laws relating to theft, we have one introduced here, prescribing what was to be done with the thief. “If the thief be found breaking in (i.e., by night according to Exo_22:3), and be smitten so that he die, there shall be no blood to him (the person smiting him); if the sun has risen upon him (the thief breaking in), there is blood to him:” i.e., in the latter case the person killing him drew upon himself blood-guiltiness (דָּמִים lit., drops of blood, blood shed), in the former case he did not. “The reason for this disparity between a thief by night and one in the day is, that the power and intention of a nightly thief are uncertain, and whether he may not have come for the purpose of committing murder; and that by night, if thieves are resisted, they often proceed to murder in their rage; and also that they can neither be recognised, nor resisted and apprehended with safety” (Calovius). In the latter case the slayer contracted blood-guiltiness, because even the life of a thief was to be spared, as he could be punished for his crime, and what was stolen be restored according to the regulations laid down in Exo_22:1 and Exo_22:4. But if he had not sufficient to make retribution, he was to be sold “for his stolen,” i.e., for the value of what he had stolen, that he might earn by his labour the compensation to be paid."

Just some passages to add to the discussion ... nothing more ... nothing less.  :)

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2 minutes ago, PepperS said:

The verse is about theft not murder. If a theif comes into my house to steal, I will give him what he wants hoping he will leave quickly. If this same person makes it obvious that he is there to kill me or a loved one, it is a whole other story. 

The issue is in the middle of the night if you're awoken by someone breaking into your house, how exactly do you determine what their intentions are?

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5 minutes ago, PepperS said:

The issue is killing in self defense, thus the thread title. To protect me and mine, I would not hesitate. 

I was speaking in context of the verses George posted. What I was basically asking is how do you make a determination of the intent of someone else who is invading your home in the middle of the night?

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Jesus told us to turn the other cheek. Defending me and mine and accidentally going too far and causing a death in self defense while trying not to is one thing. Deliberately shooting to kill or defending myself and others with the intent to kill is not right.

Way I see it, its a matter of faith and trusting in God to make the right outcome. Better for me to die than to kill someone. I dont see any scripture saying a list of times its OK to kill, especially not in the NT, after Jesus death.

We are already in heaven, just waiting for the transition there, so our lives dont matter, but our souls and decisions that affect our souls do matter.

Maybe the OSAS bunch think Christians can murder and kill and its OK cos they are saved already. I dont see a difference between saying the words kill or murder. Someone is dead by my hands, that is bad. God is in control and says not to kill, murder, take a life. What happens in self defense is in His hands, but we must try our best not to take a life even then.

Just my thinking.

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Self defense is allowed biblically. I agree killing someone is not something we should seek after, and should be avoided if possible, but its not a sin. I myself carry-in church and outside of church. I have never had to draw my weapon (other then at the range) and i hope and pray i never have to, but its there just in case.

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Just now, The_Patriot2018 said:

Self defense is allowed biblically. I agree killing someone is not something we should seek after, and should be avoided if possible, but its not a sin. I myself carry-in church and outside of church. I have never had to draw my weapon (other then at the range) and i hope and pray i never have to, but its there just in case.

If you had to draw on someone in self defense, would you try to not kill them if possible, or would you go for the fatal shot first?

 

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