Alternative View of Modesty

[C_Jones]

Hi guys! I hope I posted this in the right section.

I wanted to share another perspective of modesty culture through what I have learned from the following blogger (I will also put the link below; not all of the article is below.):

https://sometimesmagical.wordpress.com/2012/09/28/modesty-the-insidious-objectification/

"...

I’m going to go even further than that and say that the principle of modesty is the foundation of rape culture and objectification. The assumption that women need to cover their bodies in order to get respect from others or to have self-respect for themselves is what makes people think it’s okay to say that a woman’s dress contributed to her rape or sexual assault. It’s the assumption that women’s bodies are always sexual when exposed that makes people think that exposing _____ amount of skin means she’s there to be looked at or used for sex or that she wants to have sex. And further, it’s that assumption that an exposed body is a sexualized body that makes people think it’s okay to degrade and objectify women who have exposed their body, without regard to the reason for the exposure.

Modesty isn’t just another way of reducing a girl to her body parts. It is the way of reducing a girl to her body parts. The obsession of covering or uncovering a woman’s body is the same obsession. And it comes from the same mindset—that women are there for men, either as temptresses or toys. Either way, her body isn’t there for her. It’s all about how it looks to someone else—specifically some other man. Her body loses its function as the vehicle through which she lives and instead becomes the measure of how others determine her virtue.

And there is no winning!

Modesty teachings range all over the place. I used to get emails on modesty when I attended Bob Jones University. Everything was a “stumbling block.” Pants drew attention to the butt. Skirts drew attention to the butt. nude hose made legs look sexy. Colored stockings made legs noticeable, thus indecent. Bare legs made guys think of sex. The only “safe” option was to not have legs!

Oh, it is such an effective way of keeping women confined. It’s such an effective way of keeping them feeling guilty for their bodies, ashamed and hyper-aware of every aspect of it. It is the perfect method of reminding them that their primary function in life is sex-appeal.

How convenient to put the responsibility on women to be viewed as human beings.

How convenient for men to be told they can’t control themselves when it comes to sex. It’s so much easier to believe it’s uncontrollable and to blame someone else for the prejudice, superiority, and privilege than to admit that one is prejudiced, views women as inferior, and is too lazy to fight against the culture that reduces women to body parts.

But newsflash! My humanity isn’t determined by my dress! Walking out the door butt naked shouldn’t in any way diminish my personhood to anyone.

I don’t have a problem seeing a guy as a lesser person because he’s shirtless. And before we get into the “but men are visual and wired to view women that way,” let me just remind everyone that I’m attracted to women too. I’m attracted to the exact same body parts as men. And I’m very much a visual person in my attraction. But I don’t have a hard time remembering that a beautiful girl is a person, EVEN IF SHE’S DRESSED IN NEXT TO NOTHING! I don’t stop seeing her because I see her cleavage!

It’s time to stop focusing on what women are wearing and take a good hard look at the cultural mindset that allows men to think of women as “less than.”  In the end, if, like this guy, you have a hard time seeing me as a whole person, it’s not my clothing that makes it difficult for you to view me as a whole person; it’s your prejudice that makes it difficult for you to view me as a whole person. And that isn’t my responsibility to change. It’s yours.

My world doesn’t revolve around men. When I get dressed in the morning, I’m not thinking of men. I wear what makes me happy or what serves my needs, regardless of whether someone else likes it or not. If I wear shorts, it’s not to get a guy’s attention. If I wear an ankle-length skirt, it’s not to “protect” a guy’s mind or prevent him from thinking about me. I dress for me and no one else.

Show a little modesty, guys, and stop thinking that everything to do with my body has something to do with you."

For more in-depth reading, I really liked this second link, which is a 12-part series. It was so interesting, read it all in one sitting: 

http://fiddlrts.blogspot.com/2014/05/modesty-culture-part-1-introduction.html

I personally don't agree with his 1 Timothy interpretation, but anyway- both are very insightful and thought-provoking and I thought I would share.

Edited January 15, 2019 by George
Removed language

[FresnoJoe]

On 1/10/2019 at 11:36 PM, C_Jones said:

Modesty teachings range all over the place. I used to get emails on modesty when I attended Bob Jones University....
Everything was a “stumbling block.” Pants drew attention to the butt. Skirts drew attention to the butt. nude hose made legs....

It’s time to stop focusing on what women are wearing and take a good hard look at the cultural mindset that allows men to think of women as “less than.”....
In the end, if, like this guy, you have a hard time seeing me as a whole person....

it’s not my clothing that makes it difficult for you to view me as a whole person....
it’s your prejudice that makes it difficult for you to view me as a whole person. And that isn’t my responsibility to change. It’s yours....

My world doesn’t revolve around men. When I get dressed in the morning, I’m not thinking of men. I wear what makes me happy or what serves my needs....
regardless of whether someone else likes it or not.....

Show a little modesty, guys....
stop thinking that everything to do with my body has something to do with you....

True Modesty

I advise you, then, to buy gold from me, pure gold, in order to be rich. Buy also white clothing to dress yourself and cover up your shameful nakedness. Buy also some ointment to put on your eyes, so that you may see. Revelation 3:18 (Good News Translation)

Starts With Jesus

"Look, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his clothes, so that he does not walk naked, and they see his shame." Revelation 16:15 (New Heart English Bible)

And The True Love Of A Woman

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the assembly, and gave himself up for it; that he might sanctify it, having cleansed it by the washing of water with the word, that he might present the assembly to himself gloriously, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Even so husbands also ought to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself. For no man ever hated his own flesh; but nourishes and cherishes it, even as the Lord also does the assembly; because we are members of his body, of his flesh and bones.

"For this cause a man will leave his father and mother, and will be joined to his wife. The two will become one flesh." This mystery is great, but I speak concerning Christ and of the assembly. Nevertheless each of you must also love his own wife even as himself; and let the wife see that she respects her husband. Ephesians 5:25-33 (World English Bible)

Starts With A Wedding

He who finds a wife finds a good thing And obtains favor from the LORD. Proverbs 18:22 (New American Standard Bible)

In My Opinion

May your fountain be blessed, and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth: loving doe, a graceful fawn— may her breasts satisfy you always; may you be captivated by her love forever.  Proverbs 5:18-19 (Berean Study Bible)

~

Be Blessed Beloved Daughter Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 (King James Bible)

Love, Your Brother Joe

~

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160 (King James Bible)

The Bible contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions are immutable.

Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, and practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you.

It is the traveler’s map, the pilgrim’s staff, the pilot’s compass, the soldier’s sword and the Christian’s charter. Here too, Heaven is opened and the gates of Hell disclosed.

Christ is its grand subject, our good its design, and the glory of God its end. It should fill the memory, rule the heart and guide the feet. Read it slowly, frequently and prayerfully.  It is a mine of wealth, a paradise of glory, and a river of pleasure.

It is given you in life, will be opened at the judgment, and be remembered forever. It involves the highest responsibility, rewards the greatest labor, and will condemn all who trifle with its sacred contents.

From The Inside Of My Gideon New Testament

Edited January 14, 2019 by FresnoJoe

[Guest]

Too complicated for me. 

I have always dressed modestly. I uncover only for my husband. Not covered up too much, just normal. I never show cleavage, nor wear short skirts. I believe our clothes do send messages. Women should be careful. After all men do not go around half naked. 

So i say dress modestly appropriate to the occasion and the weather. Cannot go far wrong. If you are a Christian woman you will not wish surely to be flaunting your body.   Just my opinion. 

 

[JohnD]

I tell people whenever the subject comes up, "yes I agree with you, ma'am, you should be able to walk around in public in whatever state of undress you choose with no consequences whatsoever (of men's lust or otherwise)... prior to Genesis 3."

But, we ain't in Eden no more, ma'am.  

[JohnD]

It's been a while so I'll add my two cents on the subject.

Nothing in this life should be a believer's obsession other than loving

one another and witnessing Christ to every creature in every generation.

I once was obsessed with the state of human undress in society (and yes men are

gallivanting around in various degrees of biblical nudity). 

The father of the prodigal son ran to greet him when he returned home.

This was undignified according to biblical law as he had to raise his robe in order to run.

This is why ramps were made at the altar etc. so the shins / calves of the priests would not be seen

as they would on stairs (Exodus 20:26).

Biblical nakedness includes...

Isaiah 47:1–3 (AV)
1 Come down, and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon, sit on the ground: there is no throne, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called tender and delicate.
2 Take the millstones, and grind meal: uncover thy locks, make bare the leg, uncover the thigh, pass over the rivers.
3 Thy nakedness shall be uncovered, yea, thy shame shall be seen: I will take vengeance, and I will not meet thee as a man.

[REMINDER: this is the Law of Moses and according to Galatians 3:24-25 we are no longer under the Law]

If we want to be zealous and keep the Law to honor God, then we must abandon Grace entirely and keep every part of the Law... and btw none of us can (we are fallen sin-natured by birth).

Perhaps as a conscientious effort to apply biblical guidelines... but even then we tend to run into pride and arrogance and "look at me how righteous I am I never wear shorts on the hottest days."

I actually did that for several  years as a postman in the desert southwest. Now I'm back to being kidded by all the customers (usually women) about my postal shorts and "sexy legs" ← which is total bull btw, I'm old and bow legged. LOL I just laugh it off.

Zeal tends to obsession.

God freed us from the Law so we could love one another and get people saved in whatever capacity we can help (as the Spirit of God does the actual prompting and giving of faith and Grace made possible by the sacrifice of Christ and his resurrection from the grave).

If and when we focus on these things God changes the course of history and brings about things like the great experiment (America).

But as usual, we go about these things backwards or in our own strength or own way. {{{SIGH}}}

I applaud men and women who are conscientious about modest apparel! Good for you!

And your spouses are that much more blessed by you!

And thank you also for making it less difficult for your brethren to get through the day without having yet another sin (lust) to confess (to God, of course, see Psalm 51:4).

But we are not commanded to make heaven on Earth, or a Christianized society. If for no other reason than we are at a loss for whose judgment call do we go by?

As I already showed above, women who have uncovered hair, bared calves, or thighs already violate the biblical law...

Nuns' habits or burkas all around?

How about the shaved crown of the monks so not to offend our biblical head (Christ), gents?

This is more along the lines of working out your own "salvation" if it be a sin for you to eat meat then don't eat meat. But leave those who eat meat alone. Using Paul's examples in 1 Corinthians I believe it is.

 

 

 

[Guest]

Indeed. Who do we dress for? If a girl is going out half naked, what is her intention? 

Of course itcis totally wrong for anyone to assault her. Yet our appearance does give out messages. 

I remember one lady, a middle-aged not young one,   coming to a church function and wearing a top which revealed a lot of cleavage. Why? Who knows. But us other ladies were not impressed. Once at a funeral a girl of 20 was wearing a mini skirt which almost perilously revealed her knickers - again why? 

Personally i reveal my body only to my husband and if need be, to doctor or nurse if i must. I am not prudish, just modest. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JohnD]

Rabbi Hillel used Isaiah 47:1-3 in conjunction with Leviticus 18:8 to create the doctrine that a woman

who showed these body parts before men who were not her husband (even if accidentally) was guilty of adultery 

a divorceable offense.

The doctrine was in full swing by the time Jesus was on the scene.

And remember, folks, divorce was not a bit like today. A divorced woman was grateful to have the clothes on her back in those days.

Her dowry, home, children all went to the man. 

She was usually scorned and shamed so that even her blood relatives would not take her back into their homes.

Ironically, the house of prostitution (pagan temples) was where they ended up or as beggars.

To this doctrine Jesus said the following:

Matthew 5:27–30 (AV)
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

This was not the one-sided commandment for men that most think. Because that would be doing what those who held to the Hillel doctrine did to women.

Jesus answered the doctrine without refuting it. His answer was in effect...

You got Isaiah 47:1-3 and Leviticus 18:8 right, but you plum forgot all about:

Job 31:1–13 (AV)
1 I made a covenant with mine eyes; why then should I think upon a maid?
2 For what portion of God is there from above? and what inheritance of the Almighty from on high?
3 Is not destruction to the wicked? and a strange punishment to the workers of iniquity?
4 Doth not he see my ways, and count all my steps?
5 If I have walked with vanity, or if my foot hath hasted to deceit;
6 Let me be weighed in an even balance, that God may know mine integrity.
7 If my step hath turned out of the way, and mine heart walked after mine eyes, and if any blot hath cleaved to mine hands;
8 Then let me sow, and let another eat; yea, let my offspring be rooted out.
9 If mine heart have been deceived by a woman, or if I have laid wait at my neighbour’s door;
10 Then let my wife grind unto another, and let others bow down upon her.
11 For this is an heinous crime; yea, it is an iniquity to be punished by the judges.
12 For it is a fire that consumeth to destruction, and would root out all mine increase.
13 If I did despise the cause of my manservant or of my maidservant, when they contended with me;

This is how impossible it is for us to fully keep these laws, folks.

So, I have learned that we are out from under the law to change the focus of believers on to other things than trying to keep the law.

Hint hint... focus on Grace and getting others under Grace.

[JohnD]

2 minutes ago, Melinda12 said:

Indeed. Who do we dress for? If a girl is going out half naked, what is her intention? 

Of course it is totally wrong for anyone to assault her. Yet our appearance does give out messages. 

I remember one lady, a middle-aged not young one,   coming to a church function and wearing a top which revealed a lot of cleavage. Why? Who knows. But us other ladies were not impressed. Once at a funeral a girl of 20 was wearing a mini skirt which almost perilously revealed her knickers - again why? 

Personally i reveal my body only to my husband and if need be, to doctor or nurse if i must. I am not prudish, just modest.

To some it is truly only clothing to wear. I'll grant that. But we all have social responsibilities to our fellow man and woman to consider.

I do not want to be visually inconsiderate or aromatically intrusive on others.

And the one I loathe are the females who dress like Daisy Mae and give me the dirty looks when I notice my favorite body parts on public display. 

I also got into a theological debate with a female believer in hot pants and a tube top once over Matthew 5 is for men only. The debate consisted of my post just prior to this.

I concluded with "we are both committing sin which is the point our Lord was making. But if you are wanting to make a dirty face to  either one of us, do it in the mirror because if you weren't sinning first, I couldn't have sinned in this case at all." I am the one who should be making a stink face at you, sister.

[JohnD]

23 hours ago, Melinda12 said:

Indeed. Who do we dress for? If a girl is going out half naked, what is her intention? 

Of course it is totally wrong for anyone to assault her. Yet our appearance does give out messages. 

I remember one lady, a middle-aged not young one,   coming to a church function and wearing a top which revealed a lot of cleavage. Why? Who knows. But us other ladies were not impressed. Once at a funeral a girl of 20 was wearing a mini skirt which almost perilously revealed her knickers - again why? 

Personally i reveal my body only to my husband and if need be, to doctor or nurse if i must. I am not prudish, just modest.

The axiom is "women dress for other women... women UNdress for men."

That being said, if it did not have such an effect on men... most likely ← I'll say it that way... most likely most women would not or could not be bothered with all the money and effort spent on getting 'that' look etc.

Who do they dress for? Themselves. Narcissism. To gain attention. To have power or persuasion over men. Money.

All in an attempt to rid themselves of that gnawing insecurity at the base of  the female psyche.  

And of course, men encourage it intensely.

The biblical mandates of Chivalry and Victorianism we a universal effort... but as with all things in this life and human made, they devolved into judgmental cliches and persecution.

Appearance does matter. Ask anyone who ever served in the military... 

The middle aged lady was IMHO trying to hang onto or recapture her youth.

BTW, during my brief stint as a limousine driver, I did several funerals. I was amazed by how it usually was a very short little black dress / dark stockings fest. Helped a lady out of the car and I could see straight up / down her skirt, she smiled at me. At a funeral. In other words, her mission was accomplished. Now I do not judge her but I am revealing my surprise on the occasion of grief.  And yes, I did look (which I confessed unto the Lord on the spot). 

I applaud your modesty and declare that you are preserving the level of intimacy in your relationship with your husband.

Studies have shown that Christian marriages are the most sexually satisfying. 

Why?

Because they take for action the instructions of the God who wrote the book and created sexuality itself.

We all do less that the ideal... if we are honest with ourselves. And I do not get the impression *Miss Melinda12 is bragging in the least (nor have I been).

But, rather reporting the success of choosing God's better way.

God did not give us his dos and don'ts to make us unhappy but to make us as happy as we can be in this sewer we live in.

Continue to be blessed.

*A Southern use of the title Miss does not necessarily reflect on marital status but is a Southern sign of respect and courtesy (and in other cases, not here obviously, it is an indication a gentleman is not interested in them... akin to a lady calling a gentleman "sir." Just FYI. :)

[Guest]

No problem. I tell you truthfully i dress according to the weather and fir comfirt. I ensure to be smart, neat, co-ordinated. I am slim and could wear 'sexy' clothes but just don't. The only man i wish to impress is my husband. Why on earth would i show legs or cleavage etc? As a christian woman i wish to look respectable and sensible. That's it. Simple.