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What is your understanding of Faith?


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3 minutes ago, GandalfTheWise said:

I address this simply for people reading this thread who don't have the Greek background to evaluate this.   The idea that a particular dialect of ancient Greek was the most precise on the planet is not generally believed by Greek scholars.  Greek and English both have concepts for believing what someone says, trusting them, having confidence in them, and having faith in them.  The particular use of nouns, verbs, and participles can vary but the concepts carry over. To imply Greek cannot express the concept of believe, believer, and believing is not accurate.  I'll further comment that few (if any) Christian scholars take Vine's dictionary seriously as a sole basis for translation work.  Vine's is a great resource for the layman, but it is a summary and overview of the more complete and nuanced lexicons and references used by translators.  

I had been going to engage on this thread, but I found this 100+ page thread on another forum directly about this topic.   http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116722-quot-PISTEUO-quot-the-secret-of-the-universe   The poster there seemed to have similar viewpoints and a similar approach to things as is happening in this thread. 

Here are some comments from the main poster of that thread:

post 984: I don't discuss Scripture until i'm sure the one i'm talking with is "in Christ".

post 981:  Because "in Christ" i judge all things and am under no mans judgement . What that means is , because i have the Spirit of Christ in me and i am in Him , anything i see or hear is automatically discerned not by me but the Spirit in me . It's not even something that is under the control of someone in this state .  Now , that is specifically a temporary judgement "NOT" an eternal judgement . That is why i always end my statements with the word "yet". 
Because you do not know the correct way to Faithe into Christ , you more than likely can't have His Spirit "yet". Temporary , something that can be changed if you can find a way to humble yourself , instead of trying to kill the messenger . The Spirit of Christ can be put into a faither without them knowing they are fulfilling pisteuo correctly , i'm one of those . Because i've already told you the truth about pisteuo , it will probably be more difficult in some ways , but easier in others . But your so pissed at me , i think you'll probably just self destruct .  I'm making an extra effort with you here , a watchman should always do that . 

post 41:  Would I be wasting our time to try and persuade you? Not using Scripture to go back and forth, we haven't even established that either of us has the Spirit of Christ, that would make Gods Word ours to talk about.

post 50 seems to give a clear explanation of that poster's view on salvation.  

post 67:  With that said, you are completely right! Having a Salvation experience can't be taught. It happened to me by accident, at least from my perspective. And I've tried to find others that are in the same state of being as I was, and just give them the same thing I was given, but I've never seen the same result. After 25 years of that, I now simply try and shine a light on the true meaning of one word, Pisteuo! Maybe that's even to much, but I simply just can't do nothing. I've heard it said, that the hardest thing to do in Christ, is to do nothing and just be in awe of Him, "the better part".  Anyway, you should know, I don't highlight this word as if were all in Christ. I highlight this word outside of Christ as people are being drawn by the Father. The reason being that most drawn out ones I think, feel the drawing of the Father and say, "i'm here", "and this is where I'm going to make my stand with Christ." But Christ and His Word are not for those who are still in the drawing stage. What solidifies this stand their making, is the mistranslated word, " believe". So you not only have most Christians camped outside Christ claiming Gods Word is theres, you have many of them starting churches and all kinds of other things, all built on the mistranslated word "believe," in a place that was only meant for people to be drawn through.  The only thing that can make those ones uncomfortable is the true meaning of the word pisteuo. So that's the least I feel I can do. I'm not only responsible for being accountable of the things I say, i'm also accountable for the things I do, or don't do.  [highlights added by me]

post 83: If I were trying to warn people about this mistranslation of the words believe, believer , and believing without first having the experience to support it, all your conclusions ( not knowing what I'm talking about) could be and most likely would be warranted. The problem for me and you is, I had the experiences talked about in the Word before I learned it. Life altering experiences, that no one could ignore. I don't see myself as anything special, i'm just having a by the book Salvation journey. These things should be happening to everyone here. I'm busting at the seams wanting to talk about Gods Word, but I know if this first piece of the puzzle isn't understood, nothing will happen.

 

As far as I can tell, the starter of that thread seemed to seriously believe it was not possible to have any serious spiritual discussion with anyone until they accepted that replacing "believe" with "surrender your life" in most Bible verses was correcting the Bible translation.   I have the distinct impression that poster did not think most other posters on that thread were in Christ.   I have the very sad and sinking feeling of a dear and sincere brother (or sister?) that God miraculously saved, and over the years became convinced that complete agreement on the use and meaning and translation of a single Greek word was the key to evangelism and reaching the lost as well as a reliable test for who was or was not in Christ.  They grabbed a Vine's dictionary, pulled one phrase from it (surrender your life), and seem to have built their life around correctly substituting that phrase into most Bible verses where "believe" occurs.  Their entire reason for being seems to be to enlighten people to that use of that single word so that they can be in Christ.  

It's sad.  Pretty much every Christian I know is convinced that our faith in God includes the elements of trust, confidence, and believing what He says and surrendering our lives to Him.  I think that's what that poster was saying but is unwilling to accept other Christians unless they would use that particular Greek word that exact way the poster was convinced they should be using it.  

From what I can see in that thread, neither my testimony of what Christ did in my heart over 40 years ago, nor the things God has done in the decades of my life since, nor the dozens of times I've read the Bible, nor reading the Bible in Greek and now learning Hebrew, nor anything in my life would have counted for anything in that thread unless I acknowledged that πιστευω has been consistently mistranslated and misused for centuries by multitudes of Christians.   :(    I'm hoping I'm wrong since I didn't have the fortitude to read all 100+ pages, but in the few dozen I skimmed and read, that's what appears to have been happening.

 

Is this an excuse not to answer the question in my last post?

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3 hours ago, faither 2 said:

The first thing that must happen in the Salvation journey....
is the Father calls out people to Christ....

Remembering, at this beginning stage of the Salvation process, we don't have the Spirit of Christ yet....
So Christ, His word, and His promises in His Word are not ours yet either....

:emot-heartbeat:

Remembering

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, Titus 2:11 (World English Bible)

The Call

I am Jesus! And I am the one who sent my angel to tell all of you these things for the churches.

I am David's Great Descendant, and I am also the bright morning star.

The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!”

Everyone who hears this should say, “Come!”

If you are thirsty, come!

If you want life-giving water, come and take it. It's free! Revelation 22:16-17 (Contemporary English Version)

~

Love, Your Brother Joe

Edited by FresnoJoe
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7 minutes ago, FresnoJoe said:

:emot-heartbeat:

Remembering

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, Titus 2:11 (World English Bible)

The Call

I am Jesus! And I am the one who sent my angel to tell all of you these things for the churches.

I am David's Great Descendant, and I am also the bright morning star.

The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!”

Everyone who hears this should say, “Come!”

If you are thirsty, come!

If you want life-giving water, come and take it. It's free! Revelation 22:16-17 (Contemporary English Version)

~

Love, Your Brother Joe

What is Faith?

 

And how is it fulfilled specifically in relation to Christ?

 

A different way to ask the same question.

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1 hour ago, GandalfTheWise said:

I address this simply for people reading this thread who don't have the Greek background to evaluate this.   The idea that a particular dialect of ancient Greek was the most precise on the planet is not generally believed by Greek scholars.  Greek and English both have concepts for believing what someone says, trusting them, having confidence in them, and having faith in them.  The particular use of nouns, verbs, and participles can vary but the concepts carry over. To imply Greek cannot express the concept of believe, believer, and believing is not accurate.  I'll further comment that few (if any) Christian scholars take Vine's dictionary seriously as a sole basis for translation work.  Vine's is a great resource for the layman, but it is a summary and overview of the more complete and nuanced lexicons and references used by translators.  

I had been going to engage on this thread, but I found this 100+ page thread on another forum directly about this topic.   http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116722-quot-PISTEUO-quot-the-secret-of-the-universe   The poster there seemed to have similar viewpoints and a similar approach to things as is happening in this thread. 

Here are some comments from the main poster of that thread:

post 984: I don't discuss Scripture until i'm sure the one i'm talking with is "in Christ".

post 981:  Because "in Christ" i judge all things and am under no mans judgement . What that means is , because i have the Spirit of Christ in me and i am in Him , anything i see or hear is automatically discerned not by me but the Spirit in me . It's not even something that is under the control of someone in this state .  Now , that is specifically a temporary judgement "NOT" an eternal judgement . That is why i always end my statements with the word "yet". 
Because you do not know the correct way to Faithe into Christ , you more than likely can't have His Spirit "yet". Temporary , something that can be changed if you can find a way to humble yourself , instead of trying to kill the messenger . The Spirit of Christ can be put into a faither without them knowing they are fulfilling pisteuo correctly , i'm one of those . Because i've already told you the truth about pisteuo , it will probably be more difficult in some ways , but easier in others . But your so pissed at me , i think you'll probably just self destruct .  I'm making an extra effort with you here , a watchman should always do that . 

post 41:  Would I be wasting our time to try and persuade you? Not using Scripture to go back and forth, we haven't even established that either of us has the Spirit of Christ, that would make Gods Word ours to talk about.

post 50 seems to give a clear explanation of that poster's view on salvation.  

post 67:  With that said, you are completely right! Having a Salvation experience can't be taught. It happened to me by accident, at least from my perspective. And I've tried to find others that are in the same state of being as I was, and just give them the same thing I was given, but I've never seen the same result. After 25 years of that, I now simply try and shine a light on the true meaning of one word, Pisteuo! Maybe that's even to much, but I simply just can't do nothing. I've heard it said, that the hardest thing to do in Christ, is to do nothing and just be in awe of Him, "the better part".  Anyway, you should know, I don't highlight this word as if were all in Christ. I highlight this word outside of Christ as people are being drawn by the Father. The reason being that most drawn out ones I think, feel the drawing of the Father and say, "i'm here", "and this is where I'm going to make my stand with Christ." But Christ and His Word are not for those who are still in the drawing stage. What solidifies this stand their making, is the mistranslated word, " believe". So you not only have most Christians camped outside Christ claiming Gods Word is theres, you have many of them starting churches and all kinds of other things, all built on the mistranslated word "believe," in a place that was only meant for people to be drawn through.  The only thing that can make those ones uncomfortable is the true meaning of the word pisteuo. So that's the least I feel I can do. I'm not only responsible for being accountable of the things I say, i'm also accountable for the things I do, or don't do.  [highlights added by me]

post 83: If I were trying to warn people about this mistranslation of the words believe, believer , and believing without first having the experience to support it, all your conclusions ( not knowing what I'm talking about) could be and most likely would be warranted. The problem for me and you is, I had the experiences talked about in the Word before I learned it. Life altering experiences, that no one could ignore. I don't see myself as anything special, i'm just having a by the book Salvation journey. These things should be happening to everyone here. I'm busting at the seams wanting to talk about Gods Word, but I know if this first piece of the puzzle isn't understood, nothing will happen.

 

As far as I can tell, the starter of that thread seemed to seriously believe it was not possible to have any serious spiritual discussion with anyone until they accepted that replacing "believe" with "surrender your life" in most Bible verses was correcting the Bible translation.   I have the distinct impression that poster did not think most other posters on that thread were in Christ.   I have the very sad and sinking feeling of a dear and sincere brother (or sister?) that God miraculously saved, and over the years became convinced that complete agreement on the use and meaning and translation of a single Greek word was the key to evangelism and reaching the lost as well as a reliable test for who was or was not in Christ.  They grabbed a Vine's dictionary, pulled one phrase from it (surrender your life), and seem to have built their life around correctly substituting that phrase into most Bible verses where "believe" occurs.  Their entire reason for being seems to be to enlighten people to that use of that single word so that they can be in Christ.  

It's sad.  Pretty much every Christian I know is convinced that our faith in God includes the elements of trust, confidence, and believing what He says and surrendering our lives to Him.  I think that's what that poster was saying but is unwilling to accept other Christians unless they would use that particular Greek word that exact way the poster was convinced they should be using it.  

From what I can see in that thread, neither my testimony of what Christ did in my heart over 40 years ago, nor the things God has done in the decades of my life since, nor the dozens of times I've read the Bible, nor reading the Bible in Greek and now learning Hebrew, nor anything in my life would have counted for anything in that thread unless I acknowledged that πιστευω has been consistently mistranslated and misused for centuries by multitudes of Christians.   :(    I'm hoping I'm wrong since I didn't have the fortitude to read all 100+ pages, but in the few dozen I skimmed and read, that's what appears to have been happening.

Thankyou for your diligence and service to us in this matter, GTW. I discovered there is also a Faitherz registered as a member on Worthy, but there is no content from them as yet. 

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12 hours ago, faither 2 said:

In the Greek pistis is Faith, pisteuo is the application of Faith to a specific object of Faith. The problem is pisteuo couldn't be translated into the English language.

I am not interested i modern translations of ancient Greek.. As far as i am concerned those who use modern lexicons to undermine the Bible and state that English Bibles are all false translations are only seeking to undermine the Word of God in the hearts of English speaking Christians so that they can promote false un - biblical doctrines..

People who hate the Message of the Bible will always seek ways to undermine it's authority...

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10 hours ago, faither 2 said:

The first thing that must happen in the Salvation journey....
is the Father calls out people to Christ....

 

7 hours ago, FresnoJoe said:

:emot-heartbeat:

Remembering

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, Titus 2:11 (World English Bible)

The Call

I am Jesus! And I am the one who sent my angel to tell all of you these things for the churches.

I am David's Great Descendant, and I am also the bright morning star.

The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!”

Everyone who hears this should say, “Come!”

If you are thirsty, come!

If you want life-giving water, come and take it. It's free! Revelation 22:16-17 (Contemporary English Version)

~

Love, Your Brother Joe

 

6 hours ago, faither 2 said:

What is Faith....
And how is it fulfilled specifically in relation to Christ....

:emot-heartbeat:

Faith

So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. Romans 10:17 (English Standard Version)

Is Jesus

“Have faith in God,” Jesus answered. “Truly f I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them.

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.” Mark 11:22-26 (New International Version)

And The Holy Ghost

And in the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;

and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Romans 8:26-30 (New American Standard Bible 1977)

And The Assurance Of Things Unseen

Now faith is the assurance of what we hope for and the certainty of what we do not see. Hebrews 11:1 (Berean Study Bible)

~

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

Love, Joe

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8 hours ago, GandalfTheWise said:

I address this simply for people reading this thread who don't have the Greek background to evaluate this.   The idea that a particular dialect of ancient Greek was the most precise on the planet is not generally believed by Greek scholars.  Greek and English both have concepts for believing what someone says, trusting them, having confidence in them, and having faith in them.  The particular use of nouns, verbs, and participles can vary but the concepts carry over. To imply Greek cannot express the concept of believe, believer, and believing is not accurate.  I'll further comment that few (if any) Christian scholars take Vine's dictionary seriously as a sole basis for translation work.  Vine's is a great resource for the layman, but it is a summary and overview of the more complete and nuanced lexicons and references used by translators.  

I had been going to engage on this thread, but I found this 100+ page thread on another forum directly about this topic.   http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116722-quot-PISTEUO-quot-the-secret-of-the-universe   The poster there seemed to have similar viewpoints and a similar approach to things as is happening in this thread. 

Here are some comments from the main poster of that thread:

post 984: I don't discuss Scripture until i'm sure the one i'm talking with is "in Christ".

post 981:  Because "in Christ" i judge all things and am under no mans judgement . What that means is , because i have the Spirit of Christ in me and i am in Him , anything i see or hear is automatically discerned not by me but the Spirit in me . It's not even something that is under the control of someone in this state .  Now , that is specifically a temporary judgement "NOT" an eternal judgement . That is why i always end my statements with the word "yet". 
Because you do not know the correct way to Faithe into Christ , you more than likely can't have His Spirit "yet". Temporary , something that can be changed if you can find a way to humble yourself , instead of trying to kill the messenger . The Spirit of Christ can be put into a faither without them knowing they are fulfilling pisteuo correctly , i'm one of those . Because i've already told you the truth about pisteuo , it will probably be more difficult in some ways , but easier in others . But your so pissed at me , i think you'll probably just self destruct .  I'm making an extra effort with you here , a watchman should always do that . 

post 41:  Would I be wasting our time to try and persuade you? Not using Scripture to go back and forth, we haven't even established that either of us has the Spirit of Christ, that would make Gods Word ours to talk about.

post 50 seems to give a clear explanation of that poster's view on salvation.  

post 67:  With that said, you are completely right! Having a Salvation experience can't be taught. It happened to me by accident, at least from my perspective. And I've tried to find others that are in the same state of being as I was, and just give them the same thing I was given, but I've never seen the same result. After 25 years of that, I now simply try and shine a light on the true meaning of one word, Pisteuo! Maybe that's even to much, but I simply just can't do nothing. I've heard it said, that the hardest thing to do in Christ, is to do nothing and just be in awe of Him, "the better part".  Anyway, you should know, I don't highlight this word as if were all in Christ. I highlight this word outside of Christ as people are being drawn by the Father. The reason being that most drawn out ones I think, feel the drawing of the Father and say, "i'm here", "and this is where I'm going to make my stand with Christ." But Christ and His Word are not for those who are still in the drawing stage. What solidifies this stand their making, is the mistranslated word, " believe". So you not only have most Christians camped outside Christ claiming Gods Word is theres, you have many of them starting churches and all kinds of other things, all built on the mistranslated word "believe," in a place that was only meant for people to be drawn through.  The only thing that can make those ones uncomfortable is the true meaning of the word pisteuo. So that's the least I feel I can do. I'm not only responsible for being accountable of the things I say, i'm also accountable for the things I do, or don't do.  [highlights added by me]

post 83: If I were trying to warn people about this mistranslation of the words believe, believer , and believing without first having the experience to support it, all your conclusions ( not knowing what I'm talking about) could be and most likely would be warranted. The problem for me and you is, I had the experiences talked about in the Word before I learned it. Life altering experiences, that no one could ignore. I don't see myself as anything special, i'm just having a by the book Salvation journey. These things should be happening to everyone here. I'm busting at the seams wanting to talk about Gods Word, but I know if this first piece of the puzzle isn't understood, nothing will happen.

 

As far as I can tell, the starter of that thread seemed to seriously believe it was not possible to have any serious spiritual discussion with anyone until they accepted that replacing "believe" with "surrender your life" in most Bible verses was correcting the Bible translation.   I have the distinct impression that poster did not think most other posters on that thread were in Christ.   I have the very sad and sinking feeling of a dear and sincere brother (or sister?) that God miraculously saved, and over the years became convinced that complete agreement on the use and meaning and translation of a single Greek word was the key to evangelism and reaching the lost as well as a reliable test for who was or was not in Christ.  They grabbed a Vine's dictionary, pulled one phrase from it (surrender your life), and seem to have built their life around correctly substituting that phrase into most Bible verses where "believe" occurs.  Their entire reason for being seems to be to enlighten people to that use of that single word so that they can be in Christ.  

It's sad.  Pretty much every Christian I know is convinced that our faith in God includes the elements of trust, confidence, and believing what He says and surrendering our lives to Him.  I think that's what that poster was saying but is unwilling to accept other Christians unless they would use that particular Greek word that exact way the poster was convinced they should be using it.  

From what I can see in that thread, neither my testimony of what Christ did in my heart over 40 years ago, nor the things God has done in the decades of my life since, nor the dozens of times I've read the Bible, nor reading the Bible in Greek and now learning Hebrew, nor anything in my life would have counted for anything in that thread unless I acknowledged that πιστευω has been consistently mistranslated and misused for centuries by multitudes of Christians.   :(    I'm hoping I'm wrong since I didn't have the fortitude to read all 100+ pages, but in the few dozen I skimmed and read, that's what appears to have been happening.

:)

Amen~!

At that time the disciples came to Jesus and said, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, 3and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. “Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. “And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me; 6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

“Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!

 “If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. “If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.

 “See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven. [“For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.] Matthew 18:1-11 (New American Standard Bible)

~

Love, Your Brother Joe

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10 hours ago, Adstar said:

I am not interested i modern translations of ancient Greek.. As far as i am concerned those who use modern lexicons to undermine the Bible and state that English Bibles are all false translations are only seeking to undermine the Word of God in the hearts of English speaking Christians so that they can promote false un - biblical doctrines..

People who hate the Message of the Bible will always seek ways to undermine it's authority...

 

We don't need to discover any new truths, we need to rediscover the old truths!

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I've asked a simple question about what our first act of Faith is to answer the call of the Father, at the start of our. salvation journey. 

I've got no answers so I must be the only one interested in this topic. Sorry for wasting your time.

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Blessings Faither

     I don't think no one else is interested in your topic,there are 8 pages here.Perhaps your question is questionable,I don't really understand what you are asking so if you could elaborate a bit,I'll try to give it a go!

     The only time I remember a similar question was back in catholic school,The, "Act of Faith"(if I remember correctly) was a prayer-the catechism of the catholic church teaches that the Gift of Faith is essential to Salvation,the "Act" is the relenquishing of our will ,our hearts & minds to God in Christ Jesus.I can agree with this,"we surrender",I think that is a simpler way of saying it....is that what you are asking?                         With love-in Christ,Kwik

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