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What is your understanding of Faith?


faither 2

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1 hour ago, faither 2 said:

 

We don't need to discover any new truths, we need to rediscover the old truths!

What makes you think that? God has said, "Behold, I do a new thing..." Is. 43:19.

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15 hours ago, faither 2 said:

Is this an excuse not to answer the question in my last post?

As a steward of my time, it's the reason I'm not going to get bogged down in a series of back and forth one or two line posts without a clear understanding of what the real intent is.   The striking resemblance of posts on this thread to some in threads on other sites make me wonder how many of the views expressed on those sites will eventually be expressed here.   Before I go further, here are the concerns I have.

1. Am I in Christ?  What does it take to prove to another that I am in Christ?

2. Can I reference, quote, and discuss scripture in this thread?  or am I outside of Christ and not permitted to do so?

3.  What modern day teachers other than Gene Scott (and perhaps a few of those who learned from him) are true teachers from God who should be listened to?

4. Is it possible for a person to be in Christ and disagree about the need to correct virtually every English Bible translation to eliminate the words believe, believing, and believer (in favor of faithe, faithing, and faither or phrases from Vine's or Strong's)?

The bottom line is this.  I have concerns that this thread is going to become about proselytizing people to a convoluted complicated view of salvation that consists of dozens of steps and becomes so exclusionary that most Christians (in the sense of those who are forgiven, are justified, are new creations in Christ, have the Holy Spirit in them, and truly are in the body of Christ) are viewed as not being in Christ.  People who adopt this view are probably going to start isolating themselves from other Christians.   The above issues seemed to be those which ultimately drove the direction of threads on the other sites.  I will emphasize that I do not know for sure what direction this thread is heading nor the intent of the OP.  It's simply that a number of other threads on other sides started in much this same way with a similar viewpoint and using some of the same jargon and phrasing.  I have concerns that this thread might be motivated by the same viewpoint I saw in other threads on other sites which is essentially that one particular teacher (Gene Scott) was the best teacher since the apostle Paul and that only a few of those who learned at his feet (so to speak) are true teachers today.  

The posters on the other sites of this viewpoint shared things across many years and many posts and a handful of sites.  They were born again and God touched their life.   They found a church and a teacher (Gene Scott) who was the first they'd heard who actually taught about the need to be born again, and they grew and were blessed under his ministry for a few decades.  At some point, they became convinced (and that the spiritual sense they felt inside was infallible) that Gene Scott was the only true teacher today (or perhaps one of a very small number of true teachers).  After his death, they became convinced that God granted them special insight to continue that ministry and teaching and that most other teachers and churches were in error and needed to be corrected because they are not in Christ.  I of course do not know if this was a single person or a few with similar views on things.

Sadly, I believe that they are sincere, passionate, and caring Christians whose gifts, talents, experience, and passion have been distracted away from effectively reaching out with the Good News of Jesus Christ and building up the body of Christ.  Instead of focusing on Christ, His death and resurrection, and the proclamation of the Gospel, it seems like they've become obsessed with one particular issue of Bible translation.   Even more sadly, it seems to me that they fail to see that most Christians do agree with their main points about faith being more than holding an opinion about something and faith being trust and confidence in God Himself which leads to tangible action and decisions in both conversion and as an ongoing part of the Christian life.   They're basically saying much the same things as other Christians but are convinced that their quirky way of saying it is the only correct way and that anyone disagreeing is not in Christ.  As a result of this, they've distanced themselves from most other Christians.   That's my opinion of what I saw in a plethora of posts across a time span of about 6 or 7 years on a handful of sites.

 

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On 1/14/2019 at 11:37 AM, faither 2 said:

Ya that's a given!

But we're discussing when and how the Faith life, in relationship with Christ begins.

What's your understanding?

Without God's grace, there can be no faith.  We would be as blind to the truth without the grace to see, mentally acuity to understand, and ability to freely accept the precious gift of salvation that is ONLY available through Jesus.

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On 1/13/2019 at 6:02 PM, Michael37 said:

These would be simultaneous in God's economy.

Considering Paul, Paul was called out by Jesus to be an Apostle to the Gentiles.  This didn't happen all at once, much like my own calling by the Holy Spirit to make Jesus Lord of my life.  To a lesser extent than Paul, a miracle brought me from the death I accepted and the dead life I was leading to the fullness of life that was awaiting me in Jesus.

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On 1/13/2019 at 9:13 PM, Michael37 said:

Reliance based on proven trustworthiness, apparently. Belief which is enough to act upon, seemingly. Love borne of complete confidence, intrinsically.

Have faith in my answer and you will be blessed. ?

Doesn't faith have its full measure when there is no supporting "facts"?  Isn't that the definition of belief also?

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On 1/14/2019 at 5:43 PM, faither 2 said:

Everything you posted belongs to the ones who have already been accepted, and have been sealed with the Spirit of Christ.

I'm attempting to focus on the transitioning of the called out one going from Rom. 8:9 ,( not having the Spirit of Christ) and what " Faith looks like that starts the journey to being sealed with the Spirit of Christ.

I'll try to be more specific.

1) the Grace Christ gave to us as the result of His Faith makes Salvation possible, through Faith, our Faith!

I don't believe grace precedes faith.  How can we have faith if God has not first softened our hearts through His grace.

On 1/14/2019 at 5:43 PM, faither 2 said:

1) The first thing that must happen in the Salvation journey is the Father calls out people to Christ.

God pours out his grace: some receive and welcome it; some fall by the wayside.

On 1/14/2019 at 5:43 PM, faither 2 said:

2) the called out one then responds with a mental turning of the mind, ( repentance). Turning in the mind from our way to His way.

This is an excellent question.  How can we repent of our sins if we don't put Jesus first?

On 1/14/2019 at 5:43 PM, faither 2 said:

3) after the call, and the turning in our mind, the called out one takes their first step of Faith, ( specifically pisteuo ) towards Christ.

The step of faith is total reliance upon God when there is no sure thing as a backup plan (Plan B).  Total reliance upon the Godhead.

On 1/14/2019 at 5:43 PM, faither 2 said:

My question to the group is.

What specifically is involved in the taking of the first step of Faith in relation to Christ?

Romans 10:17-21 King James Version (KJV)

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

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4 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

Considering Paul, Paul was called out by Jesus to be an Apostle to the Gentiles.  This didn't happen all at once, much like my own calling by the Holy Spirit to make Jesus Lord of my life.  To a lesser extent than Paul, a miracle brought me from the death I accepted and the dead life I was leading to the fullness of life that was awaiting me in Jesus.

Yes, all good as you describe from a temporal perspective, but given that in His omniscience God foreknows whosoever will believe in Him unto eternal life His perspective is one of the completeness and perfection of those who comprise the bride of Christ. (Hopefully no-one will mix this heavenly metaphor in the context here with the metaphor of the body of Christ in it's earthly trials and tribulations.)      

 (In grammatical terms the words "repent and believe" both function as a synecdoche—the figure of speech in which a part is used for the whole. Thus, repentance implies faith and faith implies repentance. One cannot exist without the other).

4 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

Doesn't faith have its full measure when there is no supporting "facts"?  Isn't that the definition of belief also?

Can you demonstrate that assertion. There are no facts to support such a thing as "unmeltable ice" so faith that such a thing is possible would be speculation. Here's my verse for producing faith in Christ.

Rom 10:14
(14)  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
 

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On 1/16/2019 at 2:59 AM, faither 2 said:

 

We don't need to discover any new truths, we need to rediscover the old truths!

To believe this one has to put forward the teaching that the truth has been missing from the earth for many gnerations.. That the truth was removed / lost in Old times and many generations have been living in darkness and have died in darkness and thus are doomed to being cast into the eternal lake of fire because they never had access to the truth of Old because it was lost...

So then according to this teaching God has allowed peoples of the world to live in darkness for many generations and thus God have condemend millions of people to hell having failed to protect His Word from corruption..

Of course those who declare such a doctrine must declare the following verse to be a lie::

Psalms 12: KJV

6 "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. {7} Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."

 

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22 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Yes, all good as you describe from a temporal perspective, but given that in His omniscience God foreknows whosoever will believe in Him unto eternal life His perspective is one of the completeness and perfection of those who comprise the bride of Christ. (Hopefully no-one will mix this heavenly metaphor in the context here with the metaphor of the body of Christ in it's earthly trials and tribulations.)      

 (In grammatical terms the words "repent and believe" both function as a synecdoche—the figure of speech in which a part is used for the whole. Thus, repentance implies faith and faith implies repentance. One cannot exist without the other).

Foreknowledge doesn't demand predestination.  To believe so sends one down the rabbit-hole to fatalism.  "through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake," - Romans 1:5, NASB.  Grace precedes faith, and faith is a choice.  Not all Gentiles who hear the word of God respond positively.

22 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Can you demonstrate that assertion. There are no facts to support such a thing as "unmeltable ice" so faith that such a thing is possible would be speculation. Here's my verse for producing faith in Christ.

Rom 10:14
(14)  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Quote

 

Ephesians 2:8 (From John Gill's Exposition)

For by grace are ye saved,.... This is to be understood, not of temporal salvation, nor of preservation in Christ, nor of providential salvation in order to calling, and much less of being put in a way of salvation, or only in a salvable state; but of spiritual salvation, and that actual; for salvation was not only resolved upon, contrived and secured in the covenant of grace, for the persons here spoken to, but it was actually obtained and wrought out for them by Christ, and was actually applied unto them by the Spirit; and even as to the full enjoyment of it, they had it in faith and hope; and because of the certainty of it, they are said to be already saved; and besides, were representatively possessed of it in Christ their head: those interested in this salvation, are not all mankind, but particular persons; and such who were by nature children of wrath, and sinners of the Gentiles; and it is a salvation from sin, Satan, the law, its curse and condemnation, and from eternal death, and wrath to come; and includes all the blessings of grace and glory; and is entirely owing to free grace: for by grace is not meant the Gospel, nor gifts of grace, nor grace infused; but the free favour of God, to which salvation in all its branches is ascribed; as election, redemption, justification, pardon, adoption, regeneration, and eternal glory: the Syriac, Arabic, and Ethiopic versions read, "by his grace", and so some copies; and it may refer to the grace of all the three Persons; for men are saved by the grace of the Father, who drew the plan of salvation, appointed men to it, made a covenant with his Son, in which it is provided and secured, and sent him into the world to obtain it; and by the grace of the Son, who engaged as a surety to effect it, assumed human nature, obeyed and suffered in it for that purpose, and has procured it; and by the grace of the Spirit, who makes men sensible of their need of it, brings it near, sets it before them, and applies it to them, and gives them faith and hope in it: hence it follows, through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; salvation is through faith, not as a cause or condition of salvation, or as what adds anything to the blessing itself; but it is the way, or means, or instrument, which God has appointed, for the receiving and enjoying it, that so it might appear to be all of grace; and this faith is not the produce of man's free will and power, but it is the free gift of God; and therefore salvation through it is consistent with salvation by grace; since that itself is of grace, lies entirely in receiving grace and gives all the glory to the grace of God: the sense of this last clause may be, that salvation is not of ourselves; it is not of our desiring nor of our deserving, nor of our performing, but is of the free grace of God: though faith is elsewhere represented as the gift of God, John 6:65 and it is called the special gift of faith, in the Apocrypha:

"And blessed is the eunuch, which with his hands hath wrought no iniquity, nor imagined wicked things against God: for unto him shall be given the "special gift of faith", and an inheritance in the temple of the Lord more acceptable to his mind.'' (Wisdom 3:14)

----- (I asked the following question from a Greek and Hebrew professor:

"In this verse, to what does the word "that" refer to? Adam Clarke, Wesley & company say that it is neuter plural and "Faith" is feminine hence it cannot refer to faith, (Such an admission would destroy their theological system.) However "Grace" is also feminine as is "Salvation".''

His reply was:

"Here you ask a wonderful theological/exegetical question to which I can only give an opinion, and not a definitive answer. The problem is that there is NO precise referent. Grace is feminine. Faith is feminine. And even Salvation (as a noun) is feminine. Yet it must be one of these three at least, and maybe more than one, or all three in conjunction. Since all three come from God and not from man, the latter might seem the more likely. However, it is a tautology to say salvation and grace are "nor of yourselves," and in that case it certainly looks more like the passage is really pointing out that man cannot even take credit for his own act of faith, but that faith was itself created by God and implanted in us that we might believe (i.e. the normal Calvinistic position). In which regard the whole theological issue of "regeneration preceding faith" comes into play. So, that is basically my opinion, though others obviously disagree strenuously, but from an exegetical standpoint, the other positions have to explain away the matter of the tautology.''

Whether you accept the reply or not, it is sufficient to show that the Greek is not as definitive in this verse as some scholars would have you believe.)

 

This is the beginning of my understanding of the relationship between grace, faith and salvation.

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50 minutes ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

Foreknowledge doesn't demand predestination. 

I'm glad you accept that, SOBG. In my 64 years living on earth I've never believed, asserted, implied, or suggested that it does. Again, because  God always knows everything, He is always, (this means in eternity), always intimately acquainted with whosoever will believe in Christ for salvation. This information and the ramifications of it is never "unknown", (this means in eternity) , never "unknown" to God - predestination is not the cause of this "always-knowing" but the consequence. (Romans 8:28-30)   

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