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2 hours ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

"teacher" said.... "Daniel tells us the Messiah will be cut off AFTER the 69 weeks have been finished. If you read Sir Robert Anderson's book, "THE COMING PRINCE," he calculated that the 69 weeks ended when Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the colt. "

Okay, so you are resting on these "calculations" as your proof for the timing of the 69th week ending and for the cross?

If these can be proven wrong, what then?

The calculations are just icing on the cake. We can go precisely by what Daniel wrote. After all, it IS the word of God. How can anyone prove Daniel wrong?

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4 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

You seem very confused. You describe Jesus coming unseen at the rapture just before the people hide from his face, a few years before Jesus' visible second coming. 

The second coming is then the fourth coming? Heeelp I can't keep up 🙈. Yet if one simply sees this as one event, it all fits pretty smoothly. 

Please, read more closely:  WHOSE face are they hiding from, and WHERE is He?

How can it fit "smoothly" if one verse says every eye will see Him, and another tells us He remains hidden in the air and in a cloud? How can if fit "smoothly" if no one makes it to heaven for the marriage and supper?  (I could go on and on) 

There is a REASON millions of believers are pretrib. It is the way they read the scriptures. 

By the way, I did not describe Jesus coming: PAUL DID.  Did I miss it? As I read Paul, Jesus is in the air and in a cloud and "together" the dead in Christ and the alive in Christ fly up to meet Him in the cloud.  The real question is not whether this is true or not: it is scripture and OF COURSE is true: the question is, will the world SEE the church as it flies up into the clouds - and will they see Jesus?

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On 2/9/2019 at 9:52 PM, iamlamad said:

All you are telling us is that you don't understand Revelation AT ALL. The truth is, the trumpet judgments are in the first half of the week. The 7th trumpet will sound in heaven when the man of sin enters the most holy place in the temple -  and dividing the week into two halves. Believe it - for it is truth. Verses 12:1-5 are NOT about the raptured church! they are about JESUS BIRTH and how the devil, using King Herod, tried to Kill Jesus as a young child.  you are miles off from the intent of the Author!

I will agree with you: the two witnesses will be killed just 3.5 days before the end of the last 1260 days. They will lie dead for those 3.5 days, and they will be raised (with all the rest of the Old Testament saints) at the 7th vial that ends the week. 

I also agree with you: there is only a remnant of Christians left, because the main load went out at the pretrib rapture. 

Sorry, but Satan is cast down right after the man of sin enters the temple and those in Judea flee. And in case you still don't believe: that is the MIDPOINT of the week. 

Well, you can be wrong. You have that right!

You are still avoiding the question. When did the 69th week end?

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32 minutes ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

don't get your point

Luke 19:43-44 (NKJV) For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.

Do you not realize that Yeshua held them accountable to knowing when He would come based on the 69 weeks of Daniel?  He constantly taught of His upcoming death, which happened at the end of the 69 weeks.   So it would be safe to assume that He held them accountable to do the math and figure out when He would come.   The same math that Sir Robert Anderson used centuries later to prove the same thing.

Edited by OldCoot

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21 minutes ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

You are still avoiding the question. When did the 69th week end?

Simple, from Daniel's writing, BEFORE Jesus was crucified. 

That is as close as we need get today. The Jews should have KNOWN when their Messiah would come.

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16 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

You seem very confused. You describe Jesus coming unseen at the rapture just before the people hide from his face, a few years before Jesus' visible second coming. 

The second coming is then the fourth coming? Heeelp I can't keep up 🙈. Yet if one simply sees this as one event, it all fits pretty smoothly. 

But the key thing to remember is that Yeshua only completely comes to earth, plants His feet on the ground, twice.  The first time 2000 years ago and again at the point where He returns and establishes His physical reign over the earth.  It is that return when people will try to hide from Him.  At the removal of the righteous, He does not "come back" in the same sense.  He remains off the Earth and the redeemed are gathered to Him in the air.  Paul makes that very clear in his first letter to the Thessalonians.  And that event will occur quickly, at the twinkling of an eye according to Paul in his first letter to the Corinthians.

If one wants to get real technical, the first coming of Yeshua was really clear back after the Hebrew people had come out of Egypt and were about to enter Canaan under Joshua.  See Joshua 5.  And it can be argued effectively that even before that, at the meeting of God with Abraham at Mamre, that it was another of those times when Yeshua appeared on the earth, along with the two angels.

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12 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

But the key thing to remember is that Yeshua only completely comes to earth, plants His feet on the ground, twice.  The first time 2000 years ago and again at the point where He returns and establishes His physical reign over the earth.  It is that return when people will try to hide from Him.  At the removal of the righteous, He does not "come back" in the same sense.  He remains off the Earth and the redeemed are gathered to Him in the air.  Paul makes that very clear in his first letter to the Thessalonians.  And that event will occur quickly, at the twinkling of an eye according to Paul in his first letter to the Corinthians.

If one wants to get real technical, the first coming of Yeshua was really clear back after the Hebrew people had come out of Egypt and were about to enter Canaan under Joshua.  See Joshua 5.  And it can be argued effectively that even before that, at the meeting of God with Abraham at Mamre, that it was another of those times when Yeshua appeared on the earth, along with the two angels.

Yes but it all occurs on one day. Jesus fetches his bride, and there is a feast and a few hours later comes back to land on earth. The descriptions of the gathering of the church ALL have a second coming context. For example the rapture of 1 Corinthians 15 occurs "when he comes" on the day of resurrection for the righteous, at the last trumpet. The rapture of 1 Thess 4/5 occurs on a day of wrath.

So we end up with the following if we believe in a pre-trib rapture: Two last trumpets, two days of wrath, two resurrections, two gatherings of the elect, two comings of Christ.  Then some want to add in TWO great wars and TWO great earthquakes as well? The so-called two sets of matching events gets a little ridiculous.

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8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Simple, from Daniel's writing, BEFORE Jesus was crucified. 

That is as close as we need get today. The Jews should have KNOWN when their Messiah would come.

 

14 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The calculations are just icing on the cake. We can go precisely by what Daniel wrote. After all, it IS the word of God. How can anyone prove Daniel wrong?

Okay, so you believe the "coming prince" book BUT only when it is convenient for you?

The others here supporting the 70th week as unfulfilled also do the same thing, by avoiding the question and circumventing around to "conclusions" they have drawn out of the FALSE TEACHING of a 70th week that is yet unfulfilled, and submitting those conclusions then as PROOF for their interpretations.

The topic is 3-1/2 year trib/ NOT 7

The root of the argument concerns the start of the 70th week. We should agree that there is a "gap", but disagree on where it is, and all argument centers around Dan. 9:27 and the 70th week.

The hebrew to english ...  (please have at it so there can be at least some agreement as to what the words actually mean)  

וְ  (And/Also)

"he" (not in text)  

הִגְבִּ֥יר  (strengthen)           {Strong's, 1396} = gabar  (almost always interpreted as "prevailed")

בְּרִ֛ית  (Covenant/or Circumcision)   {1285} = b' rit  (a figure of cutting into two parts - just a thought)

לָרַבִּ֖ים (Many people)     {7227}

שָׁב֣וּעַ  (Week)     {7620}

אֶחָ֑ד  (one)    {259}

וַחֲצִ֨י (halfway)   {2677}

הַשָּׁב֜וּעַ  (week)  {7620}

יַשְׁבִּ֣ית׀   (to stop work, to stop something from working ; to cause someone to strike) {7673}

זֶ֣בַח  (sacrifice)  {2076} zabah  = kill, slaughter the sacrifice

וּמִנְחָ֗ה   (AND/ALSO), {4503} minha = offering 

וְעַל  (on ; about, regarding ; because of, for ; with, including ; beside, near, at ; by )  

כְּנַ֤ף    (wing ; cantilever section of a door or window that opens outward or inward ; corner or edge of a garment ) {3671} kanap- see also 3670 = to hide yourself or be hidden}

שִׁקּוּצִים֙  (abomination)   {8251} siqqus  

מְשֹׁמֵ֔ם   (on behalf of)

וְעַד-כָּלָה   (full end)

וְנֶ֣חֱרָצָ֔ה  (and/also), (decisive, final, decreed) [חֱרָצָ֔ 2782 haras = decreed]

תִּתַּ֖ךְ   (melted/pour out) {2852} hatak = determined

-עַל   (until/continual/witness/prey, plunder) {5703-5707} 'ad or 'ed 

שֹׁמֵֽם  (desolate/desolation)  {8074} samem  

פ :       (? eighty)

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13 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Luke 19:43-44 (NKJV) For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.

Do you not realize that Yeshua held them accountable to knowing when He would come based on the 69 weeks of Daniel?  He constantly taught of His upcoming death, which happened at the end of the 69 weeks.   So it would be safe to assume that He held them accountable to do the math and figure out when He would come.   The same math that Sir Robert Anderson used centuries later to prove the same thing.

Okay, Yes, I DO understand they were held accountable, that is side-stepping the issue. 

The "math" and "calculations" used for that are NOT the same as what the prophecy itself uses. It is agreed that it is speaking of years and not any other unit of measure, right?
 
The prophecy is written by a Jew and thus based on the Jewish calendar - NOT ours, right?
 
While we do have specific dates on our calendar for the starting and (eventually) ending dates of the periods in question, the time frame (calculations) MUST be done using actual Jewish years, right?
 
The false calculations (the coming prince book) have been accepted without further scrutiny as unquestionable fact by nearly everyone on this site and ALL others. 
 

Dan. 9:25 "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks..."

The key word here is "commandment" which is probably better translated as "decree" or "order" is specifically focusing on rebuilding Jerusalem and NOT the walls. There are 4 possible dates (538BC, 520BC, 458BC, & 445 BC). The first two were solely focused on building the wall and the foundation of the temple, however Ezra 7:25 (the third date - 458BC) specifies that they be allowed to set up judges (a government with the power to enact and enforce its own laws). The last one was written for the "gates of the palace, the wall of the city (notice its now referred to as a CITY), and a house for Nehemiah". 

The next problem is the dates we use are different from the Jewish calendar. I used rosettacalendar.com to convert the dates into Jewish years then after adding 483, reconverted back into our calendar and arrived at the following dates for the four in question. The end of the 69th week (or time of the "covenant being confirmed -not initiated") then would be respectively (55BC, 37BC, 27AD, & 39AD). Again, the first two are way too early and the last one is way too late. Notice also, the prophecy was made for "years" NOT "days" so this should be the proper and logical way to interpret it. Adding another 3 years would bring us to 30Ad as the year of the cross. But, what other Biblical evidence is available to either prove or disprove these dates?

The Bible gives clues as follows:

1) the birth year occurred during a census. In Feb. of 2 BC Caesar Augustus was given special honors and named "Pater Patriae" or "Father of the Country" and so a census would have been ordered in 3BC.

2) The baptism occurred when Jesus was "about 30" which is the year men become "Rabbi's" or teachers. Also, Luke 3:1 says it occurred in the 15th year of Tiberius. He was named "co-Caesar" in 13AD and we must also keep in mind that the Jewish year BEGINS in the fall. That would put his 15th year as beginning in the fall of 26AD.

3) the Ministry of Jesus spanned at least 3 years - evidenced by three separate references to three different Passovers attended by Jesus as written in the Book of John (2:13, 6:4, & 12:1)

4) the cross occurred during the rule of Pontius Pilate (26-36 AD) and on the "DAY BEFORE PASSOVER" (Nisan 14) which can fall on ANY day of the week! Plus we have to account for 3 days AND 3 nights in the grave. Thus, a Wednesday Nisan 14 is the only logical date for the cross. In addition, there are NO Nisan 14's on ANY Thursday during the reign of Pilate - so that won't work either. 30AD / a Wednesday is the only logical place for the cross.

Now how do ALL these dates work together ? 

Jesus was born in 2 or 3BC. Baptized in 27 AD (A JUBILEE YEAR!) at the age of ~30, then killed on the cross on Wed. Nisan 14 of 30AD. All Biblically accurate and without any contradiction.

The END of the 69th week was the Baptism (NOT the cross or entry into Jerusalem). The 70th week began at the baptism (start of Jesus' ministry) when He was ANOINTED by God and CONFIRMED the existing covenant as prophesied.

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      The church is the entire collection of believers comprising the body of Christ.
      And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fullness of him that fills all in all. (Ephesians 1:22-23 KJV)
      Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. (Colossians 1:15-18 KJV)
      In general, the church is excluded from the wrath, or vengeance, that is coming upon the earth.
      But God proves his love for us by this (James Moffatt), in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. (Romans 5:8-9 KJV)
      “. you turned to God from idols, to serve a living and a real God and to wait for the coming of his Son from heaven — the Son whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who rescues us from the Wrath to come. (1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 Moffatt NT)
      The church likes to hold itself in exclusivity, thinking that we are protected from tribulation. Look, Jesus guaranteed us three things:
      In this world, you will have tribulation. You will be hated by all men for my names’ sake. I will come again for you. Tribulation and Wrath/vengeance is two different things. Tribulation is non-stop and comes in many forms. It has nothing to do with your inability to buy a new propeller for the family ski boat. Get real, people in parts of the world where there is a heavy Muslim influence are being killed daily.
      If you lived under a constant threat of death, do you think you would feel as though you are being worn down, absolutely?
      Perhaps the Bible in Basic English translates it more appropriately. Daniel 7:25 (a) BBE “And he will say words against the Most High, attempting to put an end to the saints of the Most High;” It is clear that the intent is to kill the saints.
      And he shall speak words against the Most High, and he shall wear out the saints of the Most High. And he intends to change times and law. And they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and one-half time. (Daniel 7:25 LITV)
      Daniel 7:23 Declares what was to come, the fourth beast. If the fourth beast is Islam, then that was initiated over 600 years after Christ's death by Muhammad.
      Born approximately in 570 CE in the Arabian city of Mecca,[9][10] Muhammad was orphaned at an early age; he was raised under the care of his paternal uncle Abu Talib. After his childhood, Muhammad primarily worked as a merchant.[11] Occasionally he would retreat to a cave in the mountains for several nights of seclusion and prayer; later, at age 40, he reported at this spot,[9][12] that he was visited by Gabriel and received his first revelation from God. Three years after this event Muhammad started preaching these revelations publicly, proclaiming that "God is One", that complete "surrender" (lit. islām) to Him is the only way (dīn)[n 3] acceptable to God, and that he was a prophet and messenger of God, similar to other Islamic prophets.[13][14][15] (From Wikipedia.)
      Islam has operated under various caliphates since the death of Muhammad in 632 AD (BCE). While all of them caused the Middle Eastern world grief, the largest most powerful were the Ottoman Caliphate.
      Ottoman Caliphate (1453/1517–1924)
      At the end of October 1922, the Allies invited the nationalist and Ottoman governments to a conference at Lausanne, Switzerland, but Atatürk was determined that the nationalist government should be Turkey's sole representative. In November 1922, the Grand National Assembly separated the offices of sultan and caliph and abolished the former. The assembly further stated that the Ottoman regime had ceased to be the government of Turkey when the Allies seized the capital in 1920, in effect abolishing the Ottoman Empire. Excerpt from, the Ottomans.org
      Is it possible that believers have been under attack for eighteen hundred years, without a doubt!
      Pay attention to another aspect of Islam.
      “The Muslim Brotherhood was founded in Ismailia, Egypt by Hassan al-Banna in March 1928 as an Islamist religious, political, and social movement.[1][2] The group spread to other Muslim countries but has its largest, or one of its largest, organizations in Egypt, where for many years it has been the largest, best-organized, and most disciplined political opposition force,[3][4][5] despite a succession of government crackdowns in 1948, 1954, 1965 after plots, or alleged plots, of assassination and overthrow were uncovered. Following the 2011 Revolution the group was legalized,[5] and in April 2011 it launched a civic political party called the Freedom and Justice Party (Egypt) to contest elections.” (Wikipedia)
      Notice that this is two years after the Caliphate was disbanded.
      “Links to the Nazis began during the 1930s and were close during the Second World War, involving agitation against the British, espionage and sabotage, as well as support for terrorist activities orchestrated by Haj Amin el-Hussaini in British Mandate Palestine, as a wide range of declassified documents from the British, American and Nazi German governmental archives, as well as from personal accounts and memoirs from that period, confirm.[7] Reflecting this connection the Muslim Brotherhood also disseminated Hitler's Mein Kampf and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion widely in Arab translations, helping to deepen and extend already existing hostile views about Jews and Western societies generally.[8]” (Wikipedia)
      The point to this is that Islam has been a destructive thorn in the flesh of those who do not comply for over 1800 years. Have they been a global threat throughout their history, no, but it took a global response to subdue them in 1922. I think we can agree that they are global now, and a greater threat than ever before. Aside from that, their prime directive is to kill the people of the book, which would be the Jew and the Christian. Have you noticed that they are making a serious dent in their goals?
      If you have watched the news the last couple of years, then you are aware of Christians that are being slaughtered in the mid-East and African nations. Perhaps you have also noticed that attacks against any group outside of Islam are fair game to them. Buddhists, Catholics, you name it. They even fight each other as though there is a competition to see who can follow the Qur’an most precisely. Unfortunately, for the outsider, while the Qur’an does have passages devoted to peace, they are superseded by newer passages that demand a strict and violent compliance.
      I think it is evident that there is affliction directed at Christians in certain parts of the world. Not to be left out of this violence against Christians is China and North Korea. I suppose the question is, how long until this level of violence comes to the Americas and afflicts us as well?
      Do not think that your non-belief will protect you. In general, Islam feels that any American is a Christ follower and worthy of death. Scripture tells me that you may have a chance to reject God and accept Allah as your God of choice, bowing before him in worship. Perhaps that will save your neck for the moment. I am aware that they cut a man’s head off anyway, possibly because they felt he was a coward with no backbone. I suspect it will not be as easy as that, and they may not have the time to await your decision. Of course, giving into this cuts you off from any hope of a relationship with God. In other words, there is no turning back from this decision.
      If you do not know this Jesus Christ, you can. Ask him into your life, and turn yourself over to him and accept his forgiveness. Allow him to run it. You do not have to work for your salvation, as it is free and paid for, you merely have to receive this life and salvation. You will experience a peace that you have never known before and a promise that he will come for you so that you can live with him in glory.
    • By Omegaman 3.0
      I have, for the most part, not commented on many of the passages we have read in our Bible readings. Part of this is because I am lazy, but part of it is also, because we have the Worthy Christian Forums where discussion already goes on, and it is a place where Many views are represented.
      When I set up the Bible 365 Club, one of the things I wanted to accomplish, was just to get people into God's word and read it, without the need for squabbling.
      Here in Daniel 12, I don't think it is proper for me, to not draw attention to some connections to the New Testament. Reading the Bible for the sake of reading it, is not to get it's full benefit, we want also to understand what we are reading.
      With that said, I am not attempting here, to use this as a soap box for my particular views, but I do think I have a responsibility to connect some of the dots, since some Bible 365 Club members may be encountering some verses and concepts for the first time.
      By providing some Bible passages outside of our reading assignments or schedule, we can broaden our understanding a little, and begin to make some of the connections that we can examine, and hopefully the Holy Spirit will aid our understanding.
      In Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, Jesus is speaking with His disciples about the time of the end. Those are good chapters to read to broaden our understanding about the things of the end. However, here we are in Daniel 12, so what are the connections I am alluding to?
      Quoting from Matt 24:15 (NIV in this case) Jesus said to His disciples:
      “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’a spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—"
      and in Mark 13:14 it reads:
      “When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’a standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand— 
      These passages make reference to a coming abomination, and desolation, and the Matthew one tells us that this is spoken of in Daniel. In Daniel 12:11, here is a connection:
      11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days."
      This is a perfect example of a principle of Bible study, comparing scripture with scripture. Here we have something in the Old Testament, that is difficult to understand, or at least might make us wonder. However, in the New Testament, we get some explanation and elaboration.
      Now, if you read the New Testament passages that I mentioned in Matt, Mark and Luke, you might well have more questions than answers, but at least you will understand with a little more detail, something about Daniel 12.
      Just to give you some more connections, more things to file in the back of you mind, allow me to point out some concepts or details to take note of, that will help you to make associations in other chapters of various books of the Bible.
      Not going to get into it deeply here, but notice in Dan 12:11, not only the abomination of desolation, but, the specific 1290 days. Be mindful of that number, and of numbers that the Bible is going to bring up from time to time, in the context of the end times.
      Examples, 1260 days, time, times, and half a time, 3 and a half, the week and the middle of the week.
      Also of interest in this connection, is the concept of "great tribulation". Jesus uses that description in Matt 24:
      21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
      In this case, the NIV says great distress. The word distress is the Greek word  "thlípsis". Many versions use the word "tribulation". It basically means pressure. To understand the word better, see http://biblehub.com/greek/2347.htm
      I do, however, want to make another connection, so we can again, see that Jesus and the book of Daniel, are referring to the same thing. Again, Jesus said in Matt 24:21
      "For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again."
      Notice that in this distress or tribulation, is unique, not having an equal previously, not in the future. How does Daniel describe this? From 12:1:
      “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then."
      It is also note-worthy, that Michael is mentioned. You probably know, that Michael is an archangel. That ties in to this (probably) if you look at 1 Thess 4:16, and comparing that verse or passage, with the Matt 24 one.
      I am not trying to send you down all sorts of side trails, but these things are all related. Going to stop at this point, and move along. Thanks for reading what I have said here, and especially for reading the Bible itself.
    • By Mary8
      The Feasts Fulfilled
      from 18 Feb 1991ml   I have made some changes.  See end for notes.

      Passover
         Jews in ancient Israel were required to go to Jerusalem to celebrate three feasts, Passover, Pentecost, and in the autumn, Trumpets.
         Jesus fulfilled Passover which occurred on a full moon, the 14th day of the month Nisan. 
         Passover celebrates the Exodus from Egypt, which bespeaks salvation, escape, deliverance.
         Nisan 1 commences at the New Moon, as do all months on the Jewish calendar.  This month should mark the beginning of the year by Jews (rather than in September/October as they presently observe, the Civil Year.)
         Ex. 12:1-3:  "And the Lord spoke unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying, This month shall be unto you the beginning of months:  it shall be the first month of the year to you.  Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb .... a lamb for an house."
         Jesus, the slain Lamb, is the only acceptable sacrifice, and believers trust in the Blood of the Lamb and are thereby saved.

      Unleavened Bread
         Jesus fulfilled the Feast of Unleavened Bread which commenced the same day as Passover, on the 14th day of Nisan, and it was a seven day period of eating bread without leavening, which represents sin.  This feast was fulfilled before God only, as Jesus, the sinless one was lifted up before God.

      Firstfruits
         Jesus fulfilled Firstfruits by arising from the grave on the third day after His death.  The term Firstfruits refers to the first sheaves of barley which were ready to cut and Jesus's resurrection is the  fulfillment.  [Lev. 23:10.]  Many saved people were also resurrected from their graves and walked about the Jerusalem area at the time of Jesus's resurrection.  This first group of resurrected saints compares to the Rapture of believers as the world goes on around the event.
         I believe the Rapture of the Church is shown in the following Scriptures.  Jesus the grain, died, brought forth much fruit, and His Church is likened to a harvest of grain.  Jesus often likened Himself to a husbandman also, and here He is waiting for the precious fruit, the gathering of the harvest of souls.
         John 12:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
         James 5:7  Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
         The barley and wheat harvests in Israel are the early crops, with the earliest, the barley harvest completed in April, and the wheat completed in May.  This year of 2018, Passover commences Friday evening, March 30, and the counting of the days, Lag b'Omer, and Omer 1 starts on March 31.  Jesus arose on Firstfruits, "the morrow after the Sabbath," Sunday, and in 2018, Firstfruits is Sunday, April 1, through Saturday, April 7.   The Lag b'Omer ends on the 50th day, the morrow after the Sabbath, which is Pentecost.  Lev. 23.  Centuries ago, the Jewish calendar was changed, and Pentecost was shifted from always being on a Sunday 'the morrow after the Sabbath,' to Sivan 6.  This year of 2018, Sivan 6 happens to fall on Pentecost Sunday.  
         These days are for me a time of considering whether He may gather us during the period of the grain harvest.
          Lev. 23:10-11 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:  And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it. 
         The people were not to eat of the grain until it had been waved before the Lord.
         We see a picture of a time of rejoicing for Israel revealed in the story of old Naomi, and her restoration and joy in having a little boy to care for in her old age.  Ruth was married and taken into Boaz's house and lifted out of her time of gleaning in the field.  The son of Boaz, Obed, is born.  Others have noted that the book of Ruth is like the story of the Church and the Lord Jesus, and I think there is also this parallel to Israel revealed in Naomi's story, that Jesus is like Boaz, and when He and the Church are wed in heaven, a son will be born, the sealed servants in Israel. 
         Naomi will be brought back to joys she had thought were lost forever.  Just as Obed means "serving," so the end time, 144,000 believing Jews will be excellent servants of God  as we are told in Revelation.  Naomi means "pleasantness" but she said she had become bitterness.  Naomi's joy will return.   Other types of these victorious, believing Jews are seen in the three young men in the fiery furnace; in Elisha; and in Ephraim, the younger son of Joseph; and in Benjamin.

      Pentecost
         I believe the harvest of grain in springtime points to the season of the coming of the Lord for His believers.  The increase of the grain, the harvest reveals the way He has multiplied His believers like a sower who cultivates His field.
         Pentecost celebrates the giving of the law, and occurs after seven sabbaths, on a Sunday ("the morrow after the sabbath") according to Scripture, (making it another reason for us to worship on Sunday, the day Christ arose). 
         This fulfillment occurred when the Holy Spirit fell upon the gathered believers, as Jesus had promised.  He came with a noise of a mighty wind, and the separated 120 believers saw the flames of fire on one another's heads.  Believers spoke in other tongues, telling about Jesus to people of other nations.  Just as fire came on Sinai as the law was given, so fire came on the Church in Jerusalem.
         Observance on Sunday has been set aside by the Jews as explained above.
         Tradition says that Enoch was born on Pentecost and was also taken up by God on Pentecost.

      Feast of Trumpets
         Next is the Feast of Trumpets, a convocation of trumpets, and all Jews are to gather in Jerusalem.  Some think the convocation of trumpets will be fulfilled  by believers going up to heaven, being gathered to Him, and that Jesus, as High Priest, will blow the trumpet ['the trump of God'  I Thes.]  just as occurred at this feast in Israel near sundown on the evening before the new moon of Tishri 1 when the High Priest blew the shofar to gather the people, who were to immediately go to the temple.

      The Day of Atonement
         The Day of Atonement was a solemn fast day when the Jews were not to work.   For thousands of years, annually on this day the High Priest went into the Holy of Holies and sprinkled the blood of a sacrifice and interceded for the people.  A rope was tied around his ankle in order to pull him out if he died in there and the sacrifice was not accepted.  Jesus went into the Holy of Holies before the Lord and made an atonement for us by the sprinkling of His own Blood. 
         After the Rapture of the believers, there will be, I believe, an awed multitude of Jews  who see that something has happened and many will seek the Lord.  I think this time of shock is revealed in the first chapter of the Book of Joel, and that following chapters describe the tribulation and their comfort as they find God has not forsaken them.  (I have done a little study on Joel which indicates my reasons.)  Jesus has made our atonement and we won't ever experience the earthly fulfillment of that dreadful dark period. 
         I believe the Jews will experience great revival and miracles, and will believe and evangelize.  The tremendous outpouring of God's Spirit as related in Joel will fall upon them.  I believe "Ephraim" was born in 1948, as Israel became a nation.  During the terrible time of God's wrath outpoured upon the sinful earth, Israel will experience great things.  I believe this is borne out in books of the Old Testament and in the Book of Revelation.  Far from the Jews staying behind to experience only curses, I believe many will believe and please the Lord.  They will become a true witness, just as the three young men in the fiery furnace in Daniel, and the Lord will be manifested among them!  They will live through terrible times as they wait to see Him.  No wonder that He said blessed are those who believe without having to see.
         Believers have received the Blood of the slain Passover Lamb,  His offering of Unleavened Bread, and we have taken the symbols of His Blood in the wine and His body in the broken bread.  We have believed in Firstfruits, with Jesus raised from the dead,  like a grain of wheat buried, seemingly dead, and then sprouted in new life.  We have experienced Pentecost and are in a time of waiting and watching for Jesus to come.  We will never again experience a day of crying out and seeking an atonement because Jesus is our all in all.

      Tabernacles, Booths, Succot
         At this feast, all Jews were to go up to Jerusalem for the great gathering of the people.   They were told by the Lord to live out of doors for a week in little booths made of tree limbs and branches to remind them of the way God had protected them in their sojourn from Egypt.  Tabernacles commences on the full moon, the harvest moon.  Most of the crops are in, the grape harvest is ending in September. 
         The olive will be harvested during September, October, November.
         Revelation mentions the pressing of grapes was the time of His wrath.
         Are the 144,000 believing Jews like olives, pressed, yielding precious oil?  The two witnesses of the Book of Revelation are likened to two olive trees.  The olive harvest and pressing reminds us of the oil being used for the Menorah lamp. We know that the grapes of wrath reveal the wicked. 
         Tabernacles will be fulfilled by the Lord setting His Throne in Jerusalem so all the saved would come up to it, since it is on a mountain, Mount Olivet.
         Remaining Jews will experience the time of Jacob's trouble and consider the fulfillments of some of the feasts, and realize what the Lord has done.  The periods of time spoken of by the prophet Daniel will commence to be fulfilled.
         The Lord has a marvelous plan for the Jews.  He will mightily undertake for them, and just as Joseph dealt with his brothers and restored them to himself in a time of great famine, so the Lord will undertake for them in the dark days prophesied in the Scriptures, and they will be restored to Him with tears of joy. 
         We are soon coming to the sunset, it seems to me.  In the twilight after we believers are gone, the Day of the Lord will commence. 
         The sun was darkened when Jesus died, and the Jewish day commences at sunset, and with it begins the dark Day of the Lord.  The Day of Atonement will come and stretch on as the Jews seek God's salvation in that awful time. 
         The seven years start with the covenant of the evil one and Israel, but there could be some intervening time between the Rapture and the start of the Tribulation.  The time of Jacob's trouble will commence, the time of Daniel's seventieth "week."  Greater things than the Exodus will occur.  Afterward, Tabernacles, and then the light of the new day will come, the thousand year earthly reign of Christ here on earth.  And He shall reign forever and ever.
         Some say the Church will go through the tribulation, that God fulfilled the spring feasts in a mighty way on the earth, but that both believers and unbelievers will move together into the tribulation.
         Jesus will set up His kingdom on earth, and sit upon the throne of David, and rule the earth from Jerusalem.  Every year, all people of the earth will come to worship Him there or they will have no rain, according to Zechariah.  Jesus will reign one thousand years, and turn all over to His Father for eternity. 
         Blessed be the Name of the Lord!  

      *****
      Notes, 26 March 2018: 
         I want to say a bit more about a group referred to by various names: NAR New Apostolic Revolution, Latter Day Rain, MSOG or Manifest Sons of God, Kingdom Now, Dominion Theology, Identity.  They and others teach against pre-tribulation Rapture and that Jesus will not come until believers take over, have dominion over the world.   I've read that they believe that the office of Apostle can be conferred by the laying on of their hands, and that the Church has replaced Israel, Replacement Theology.  
         In 2018, Paul Smith of Calvary Chapel states that the "New Evangelical"  outlook, which I think is spreading among some churches, is that Jesus is gradually coming into hearts.   [So many are being taught to not take the Scripture literally as to Jesus' return.]
         I visited a Manifest Sons type of group with an acquaintance, in 1980s, for their large Feast of Tabernacles meetings and celebration, and it took me awhile, but I realized, 'What about the blessed hope?'  
         I take the Scriptures literally and decided the blessed hope is the hope of His coming for believers -- not death, not tribulation, not being hidden in Petra in the mountains southwest of Jerusalem. 
         I'm surprised, but these post-tribulation ideas are still growing and are found among many.  The Manifest Sons group has their main weekly meeting on Saturday, is allied with "CCC" Christ Community Churches.  Dominion Theology people preach that the Church must bring the earth under control before Jesus can come again.
         We will benefit from comparing Scriptures about 1) the grain harvest 2) the coming for the Bride 3) the householder on a journey who exhorts his servants to watch, and will learn much by looking again at the parables of Jesus.
         All unbelieving people left behind at the Rapture will live during the Time of Jacob's trouble.  God's plan will be fulfilled and many will be saved, but many will die, many will be executed, and suffering will be great.   One hundred forty four thousand Jewish men from the tribes will evangelize and many will believe.  After the departing of the Church, the Scripture will be fulfilled, Jeremiah 8:20  The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.  
         The book of Joel chapter 1 speaks of an event that has occurred:  "The word of the LORD that came to Joel the son of Pethuel. Hear this, ye old men, and give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land. Hath this been in your days, or even in the days of your fathers?  Tell ye your children of it, and let your children tell their children, and their children another generation."  Verse 7: "He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it clean bare, and cast it away; the branches thereof are made white."   Does this event point to the missing believers and realization by Jews that they had not recognized Messiah, or does it indicate there has been a military attack on Israel?
         Specifics for events in the time of tribulation can be found in Daniel and in the Book of Revelation.
         The evil man will arise and set up world government and eventually enter the Temple in Jerusalem, saying he is God, and the most awful times will occur.  Great numbers of new believers, who will refuse to take his mark, will be beheaded.  Eventually, as Jesus warned, some will flee Jerusalem and hide in the mountains to the southeast, and be sustained by the Lord. 
         Evil unbelieving people of the tribulation are compared to a harvest gathering of grapes, to be crushed.
         Believers during the Time of Jacob's trouble might be compared to the olive harvest, the last harvest of the agricultural year, and the pressing of the olives.
         After a specific number of days, Jesus will come with all His saints, on white horses and clothed in white linen, and He will split Mount Olivet in Jerusalem, east to west.  He will slay all His enemies upon the earth by the word from His mouth.  Some people will live through the tribulation and have children, in a time of peace, blessing, abundance.  Satan will be bound, Rev. 20.
         Rev. 19:8  And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
         We look forward to His gathering of His grain harvest.  Rev. 22:20  Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
         
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