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Wade8888

Behemoth, Leviathan, Zu (or Ziz)

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The Ancient Hebrews were never entirely monotheistic, even Moses called God "The God of Gods", as did the Angel when speaking to Daniel.

 

Now it is interesting that two of these names "Behemoth" and "Leviathan" appear in the Bible, but they are never fully described in any of the books of the Bible. These descriptions that doe exist in the book of Job are sometimes incorrectly associated with Dinosaurs. That is not what these beings are.

 

The Ancient Hebrews believed in several "Primal Deities" including a triplicate: "Behemoth, Leviathan, and Zu". It is these beings that the God in the Book of Job is referring to, when he states that He created them "with man". If you don't believe this, you can search Wikipedia for it, and there are encyclopedia articles explaining this in their text. These beings are again sometimes used by Young Earth Creationists to argue that Dinosaurs co-existed with the Antedeluvians and Noah, which is actually wrong and ridiculous. Behemoth, Leviathan, and Zu are stated to have been created before the Universe itself, so they are in a sense "timeless" beings created by God, in the same sense as the Angel in the Book of Revelation stating that there shall be "time no more". The Bible mentions these beings and gives brief, vague descriptions of two of them, but it is not clear to the modern reader that these are actually primal deities known to the Hebrews. The Hebrew reader would have known what he was talking about, whereas a modern reader, acquainted only with Monotheism, attempts to associate them with Dinosaurs, which as stated is wrong and ridiculous.

 

The real God did not literally create the Earth at the same time as the rest of the Universe. The Earth is close to 1/3rd the age of the rest of the Universe, so there have been life forms and spirit beings greatly pre-dating the Earth in the history of the Universe. Some of them we are acquainted with, such as the Angels and Demons*, but some of them we are not. The Universe is such a large place that we will never know everything about it in this lifetime....and it may not be relevant to our lives in the Resurrection either.

 

The Point of this post is to rebut the claim that these two (of the three) beings are dinosaurs. They are not dinosaurs, they are spirit beings, primal deities, created by "The God of Gods".

 

While I am here, I may as well talk about the subject of Hell. The Bible states that Hell was created for the Devil and his Angels. At the place I used to work, there was an atheist who argued that Hell could not be a real place, because humans didn't exist throughout most of the history of the Universe, but this is not what the Bible says Hell was created for. Hell was created for the devil and his angels, and by being a rebel against God, unbelievers get counted as angels of the Devil. So anyway, since Hell was created for the Devil and his angels, then it can be older than man and can be older than the Earth.

 

Also, I am not saying that anyone should worship these beings, that would be blasphemy. I'm just saying the Hebrew roots show that these beings mentioned in the Psalms and in Job are NOT dinosaurs.

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Allow me to add that from what I see concerning these stories, it is basically nonsense, which is probably why there isn't much about them in the canon.

Nevertheless, the point stands that the authors were not talking about Dinosaurs when they mentioned this in Job and the Psalms.

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At the beginning of Job 40, God accuses Job of "contending" [fighting] with God and "rebuking" God.

God goes on in chapters 40 and 41 to show just how weak Job and all of humanity really is.  He compares this attempt at correcting God with fighting two large creatures that God say that he, himself, created.

He describes them in great detail, one is a land animal and one is a water animal.  There is no definitive proof as to what these animals were [are].

However, the point of chapters 40 and 41 are not to describe an animal and for us to puzzle over what it was [is].

The point God is making when he says that no one could catch or wrestle with these animals is that how could one presume to correct, rebuke, fight with, or go against God if they can't even battle another created creature.

To paraphrase it, God says, "How can you come up against Me, if you can't even catch or control these two animals?"

That's the point of the story.  The point isn't to get caught  up in what kind of animal they were [are].

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7 hours ago, Jayne said:

At the beginning of Job 40, God accuses Job of "contending" [fighting] with God and "rebuking" God.

God goes on in chapters 40 and 41 to show just how weak Job and all of humanity really is.  He compares this attempt at correcting God with fighting two large creatures that God say that he, himself, created.

He describes them in great detail, one is a land animal and one is a water animal.  There is no definitive proof as to what these animals were [are].

However, the point of chapters 40 and 41 are not to describe an animal and for us to puzzle over what it was [is].

The point God is making when he says that no one could catch or wrestle with these animals is that how could one presume to correct, rebuke, fight with, or go against God if they can't even battle another created creature.

To paraphrase it, God says, "How can you come up against Me, if you can't even catch or control these two animals?"

That's the point of the story.  The point isn't to get caught  up in what kind of animal they were [are].

God called iyov blameless so all eisegesis aside.

The only contention and rebellion was shown forth in elihu's arrogance while placing himself in the temple and saying he is God.

To which is rebuked by the All Mighty himself.

Night and Day have two lamps to pierce the darkness where the evil ones attempt to hide.

As for the two creatures described. An understanding of the heavenly and earthen abode needs to be reconciled while reading the characterization attributed to each. Principles do not apply to certain creatures that abhor the Light in order to pervert the righteousness of the Lord of Lights.

The punishment for speaking falsely by iyovs's three friends was temporal. While elihu's is eternal.

 

Edited by pinacled

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Eisegesis?  How can it be eisegesis if I cited what the text says?  I gave no personal interpretation.

Did you read the text where God accused Job of sin?

Yes, he was called blameless in the beginning of the book, by chapter 40, he was not.

Job - Chapter 40:1-2

"Moreover the Lord answered Job, and said, 'Shall he that contends with the Almighty instruct him? he that rebukes God, let him answer it.'"

God said that Job:

  • contended [or fought] with Him.
  • tried to "teach" Him.
  • and worse, rebuked God.

By the time that God gets finished with Job, all Job can say in Job 42 is that he spoke to God rashly and didn't know what he [Job] was talking about.  Job says in Job 42:6, "I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes."

Job's problem was that his righteous living led him to a self-righteous opinion of himself when having to bear sorrow, pain, the ill-advice of friends, and his own belief that he was sinless.  Blameless does not mean sinless.  It means righteous living.

Paul, after his conversion,  claimed to be blameless before his conversion yet he murdered Christians before his conversion.

 

Edited by Jayne

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20 minutes ago, Jayne said:

Eisegesis?  How can it be eisegesis if I cited what the text says?  I gave no personal interpretation.

Did you read the text where God accused Job of sin?

Yes, he was called blameless in the beginning of the book, by chapter 40, he was not.

Job - Chapter 40:1-2

"Moreover the Lord answered Job, and said, 'Shall he that contends with the Almighty instruct him? he that rebukes God, let him answer it.'"

God said that Job:

  • contended [or fought] with Him.
  • tried to "teach" Him.
  • and worse, rebuked God.

By the time that God gets finished with Job, all Job can say in Job 42 is that he spoke to God rashly and didn't know what he [Job] was talking about.  Job says in Job 42:6, "I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes."

Job's problem was that his righteous living led him to a self-righteous opinion of himself when having to bear sorrow, pain, the ill-advice of friends, and his own belief that he was sinless.  Blameless does not mean sinless.  It means righteous living.

Paul claimed to be blameless before his conversion yet he murdered Christians.

 

I've heard these familiar arguments elsewhere and they are falsely attributed in that God is being called a liar.

Is iyov blameless or not?

I suggest not standing in the counsel of the wicked as elihu did in the flesh.

Think of the bull that Gore's a son or daughter of the kingdom. And the principle responsibility of its owner to protect others from harm. Then take note of the violence Cain visited upon his innocent brother. Did Cain love his brother in allowing a murderous bull to roam freely.

No, his voice is clearly heard as violence against a neighbor and the All Mighty himself. Just like it is with those who chose to set a murderer free on a particular day.

There is no love in such A perversion of judgement.

I suggest a change of heart before offering eisegesis.

 

 

Edited by pinacled

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36 minutes ago, Jayne said:

Eisegesis?  How can it be eisegesis if I cited what the text says?  I gave no personal interpretation.

Did you read the text where God accused Job of sin?

Yes, he was called blameless in the beginning of the book, by chapter 40, he was not.

Job - Chapter 40:1-2

"Moreover the Lord answered Job, and said, 'Shall he that contends with the Almighty instruct him? he that rebukes God, let him answer it.'"

God said that Job:

  • contended [or fought] with Him.
  • tried to "teach" Him.
  • and worse, rebuked God.

By the time that God gets finished with Job, all Job can say in Job 42 is that he spoke to God rashly and didn't know what he [Job] was talking about.  Job says in Job 42:6, "I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes."

Job's problem was that his righteous living led him to a self-righteous opinion of himself when having to bear sorrow, pain, the ill-advice of friends, and his own belief that he was sinless.  Blameless does not mean sinless.  It means righteous living.

Paul, after his conversion,  claimed to be blameless before his conversion yet he murdered Christians before his conversion.

 

Follow the structure of instruction freely given in the account of iyov with a fruit of self discipline and you will find joy.

Humility first is a wonderful lesson. Hence ashes and sack cloth. 

The structure reveals a third of the kingdom to be revealed by the Lord during pesach(waters) and dividing of such waters that the Lord promises.

Think of yecheskel(ezekiel being told to prophecy to old bones and is also told that noach, danyl, and iyov are blameless or righteous in the eyes of the Lord.

Then meditate on the Torah and ask the Lord if He calls you blameless.

The answer should be that in Christ you are......?

Edited by pinacled

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I am not calling God a liar.  I do not have to have a change of heart.  I am not presenting an eisegetical  post.

I cited scripture.  Plain, clear, quoted word for word scripture.

I believe the Bible.  I believe Job 40:1-2 and I believe Job 42:6.  Just like they are written.  Just like God recorded them.

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1 hour ago, Jayne said:

I am not calling God a liar.  I do not have to have a change of heart.  I am not presenting an eisegetical  post.

I cited scripture.  Plain, clear, quoted word for word scripture.

I believe the Bible.  I believe Job 40:1-2 and I believe Job 42:6.  Just like they are written.  Just like God recorded them.

Then perhaps you should take into account the number of oxen sacrificed in comparison to a freewill offering.

A whole tithe is apart of the third of the trees.

One stone is missing while elihu claims himself king.

 

Edited by pinacled

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Behemoth

At the end of the book of Job, God takes Job on a ‘tour’ of creation, showing him the wonders of the natural world: the mountain goats, the wild donkey and wild ox, the ostrich, the horse and the birds of prey. And after this, God describes two further creatures: Behemoth and Leviathan.

What are they? Some think that they are the hippopotamus and the crocodile; others suggest that they are dinosaurs. But they are in a totally different league to the animals that have gone before. The descriptions are fantastical (Leviathan is a proper dragon, breathing fire!), quite unlike the naturalistic and easily recognisable creatures depicted earlier. In both strength and size, Behemoth is massive; even its tail is like a tree! It is so huge as to have no natural predators, and no force on earth can overcome it - not even a mighty river in flood. I therefore suspect that ’Behemoth’ is not a real animal at all, but a monster. Like the beasts in Daniel’s visions, it is not meant to be taken literally; it represents something else. 

At the very beginning of Job’s story, he suffers a string of unpredictable and overwhelming disasters. He knows from bitter experience that there are things in life that are beyond both his comprehension and his ability to cope with. And we all have deep fears lurking in the undergrowth of our minds (Job 40:21,22); they consume our energy and resources as we try (often in vain) to appease them (Job 40:20).

When I qualified as a doctor, nearly forty years ago, cancer was one of these monsters. The ‘big C’ was feared so much that people tried to avoid even mentioning it; if a diagnosis of terminal cancer was made on the ward, the staff would go to great lengths to conceal it from the patient. I remember one man who was so horrified by his diagnosis of leukaemia that he went into a decline and died (unnecessarily) within a week. Thankfully things are very different now; not only has cancer treatment improved beyond all recognition, but there is a culture of openness which has done a lot to reduce the fear. 

Yet as one threat recedes, others take its place. War, suicide bombers, HIV, dementia…  God permits these things to exist, and He will not remove them from the world. Whatever your personal ‘Behemoth’, it is here to stay; nevertheless, as part of God’s creation, it is under God’s authority (Job 40:19), and He will deal with it in His own time and in His own way. Let Him.

 

Leviathan

Terrible as Behemoth is, he is not our greatest enemy; that title belongs to Leviathan, the sea monster.

Who or what is Leviathan? Like Behemoth, he is no ordinary animal. He is an amazing and beautiful creature, who evokes awe and wonder (Job 41:12-24). He is immensely powerful, and apparently indestructible; nobody can withstand his attacks, and no human weapon can touch him (Job 41:25-29). He terrorises the earth - yet is himself without fear - and is the ruler of all those who oppose God (Job 41:34).

There is really only one candidate: Satan, the Accuser, who plays such a large role in the first two chapters of the book of Job and then inexplicably disappears from the story. And this is confirmed by most other references to Leviathan in the Bible; he is a force of evil, opposed to God (Psalm 74:12-14) and doomed to destruction on the Day of Judgement (Isaiah 27:1).

We should not make the mistake of underestimating Leviathan (Job 41:1-9); he is highly dangerous. We cannot broker a deal with him (Job 41:4); we dare not try to make a pet of him (Job 41:5); we cannot use him to further our own ends. He is stronger than we are, and we must never forget it! Only the armour of God (Ephesians 6:13) can give us protection against him.

For there is One who is stronger and more terrible than Leviathan, the One who is supreme over all things. God can – and will – defeat him; He is greater than all the dangers that threaten us and all the problems that beset us. Absolutely everything in this world – no matter how dark or how painful – is held within the Creator’s hands. And we cannot be defeated by them, if we belong to Him. “In all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.” (Romans 8:37)
 

  • Praise God! 1

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