Jostler Posted January 24, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 25 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,679 Content Per Day: 1.40 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 16 Joined: 01/19/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted January 24, 2019 1 hour ago, R. Hartono said: The rest of the dead here speaks about the unbeliever who died since the creation and they will face the Great White Throne judgment, then its over and New Heaven and New Earth established. I struggle to read it that way. In Rev 20:4 a limited group of saints is very precisely defined, and not all believers down through history fit the description. Quote Rev 20:4 ¶ And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a[fn] thousand years. Precise, unambiguous wording there. The Word also takes pains to identify this specifically delineated, limited group as qualifying for the first resurrection. In a context this precise and unambiguous, I am not comfortable interpreting "the rest" as anything more or less than exactly what it means. Quote Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. "the rest" is most simply understood to mean everyone not included in the first group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backontrack Posted January 26, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 139 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,213 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 185 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/10/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted January 26, 2019 On 1/19/2019 at 1:24 AM, R. Hartono said: Jesus said that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will be waiting for their fellows at the kingdom of heaven, Matt 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. It means Abraham, Isaac and Jacob have come first to heaven, they may have been resurrected when Jesus died at the cross, which is the true divine sign of the Messiah of Jesus Christ. Matt 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Isaiah also mentioned that his dead body will arise from the dust. Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. ABRAHAM, ISAAC, JACOB, ISAIAH AND OTHER PROPHETS MAY HAVE BEEN RESURRECTED AND APPEARED TO PEOPLE IN JERUSALEM. And they may have been taken with Jesus when He ASCENDED (not when He died) Ep 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When He ASCENDED up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. I think more then Abraham, Isaac, Jacob Ascended with Jesus I think many From Adam Eve on were set free, here is a question we knew Elijah, Enoch never saw death but on the mount of Olives there was Elijah and Moses who appeared to Jesus, yet Moses was buried before the Jews entered the promised land so explain that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appy Posted January 26, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 23 Topic Count: 133 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,864 Content Per Day: 0.62 Reputation: 2,596 Days Won: 2 Joined: 08/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted January 26, 2019 Jesus showed the Sadducees that when God was speaking to Moses at the burning bush that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob having been buried were alive in heaven. Note the “ I am the God of “ he was telling the Sadducees that the three names mentioned were very much alive in heaven. They were already in heaven when God was speaking to Moses. Matthew 22:31-32 But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bible_Gazer Posted January 26, 2019 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 450 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 152 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/05/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted January 26, 2019 8 hours ago, appy said: Jesus showed the Sadducees that when God was speaking to Moses at the burning bush that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob having been buried were alive in heaven. Note the “ I am the God of “ he was telling the Sadducees that the three names mentioned were very much alive in heaven. They were already in heaven when God was speaking to Moses. Matthew 22:31-32 But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” Hebrews 11:13 (KJV) The OT worthies died 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. Including Abraham v8 he was of the faithful John 3:13 (KJV) 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 11:25-26 (KJV) 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? Romans 14:8-9 (KJV) For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. Matthew 8:21-22 (KJV) interesting saying Jesus said 21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. 22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. God is the God to the living believers, not to those that are alive and dead to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis1209 Posted January 26, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 17 Topic Count: 347 Topics Per Day: 0.13 Content Count: 7,436 Content Per Day: 2.70 Reputation: 5,360 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/27/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted January 26, 2019 On 1/19/2019 at 4:13 AM, Deborah_ said: Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will be resurrected when we are... which will be when the Kingdom is consummated, and we all begin to enjoy it together. I don't see anything in the verse you quoted to suggest that the patriarchs are already resurrected. I'm not disagreeing, I believe both Old and New Testament Saints will be resurrected at the general Rapture / Resurrection. However, many were resurrected with Jesus and apparently showed themselves to family and friends. I've wondered how many, who and why? Any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jostler Posted January 27, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 25 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,679 Content Per Day: 1.40 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 16 Joined: 01/19/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted January 27, 2019 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said: I'm not disagreeing, I believe both Old and New Testament Saints will be resurrected at the general Rapture / Resurrection. However, many were resurrected with Jesus and apparently showed themselves to family and friends. I've wondered how many, who and why? Any ideas? hahah....this is a question I am also currently holding up to Him That is such an enigmatic passage describing such a momentous event it boggles my mind it's only mentioned in that one verse. It's very relevant to some other important passages such as Rev 20:4 where we see a VERY specific set of saints defined by a VERY specific list of qualifications who are raised immortal for a very specific (and exclusive task) in a resurrection defined as the FIRST resurrection. If the Bible says FIRST I believe it means FIRST. So my question to Him is "If Rev 20:4 describes the first resurrection and specifically defines who participates in it, what the heck happened in Matt 27:51-53?" Quote Mat 27:51 ¶ Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, Mat 27:52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; Mat 27:53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. I have learnt to dearly love finding these apparent contradictions in the Word because every time I have in the past, and presented them to Him for understanding, He's resolved them in simply astonishing ways and every time I've learnt something incredibly important. Right now the trail He seems to have me sniffing down involves the OT symbolism found in the firstfruits offerings. It's a more complex topic than I knew having never studied it in detail before, but I'm seeing some parallels in the "sheaf" of grain the people were commanded to bring to the Lord and which the priest "waved" before the altar. We do have clear witness that Jesus is described as both firstfruits and first-born of the dead. Does the sheaf imply there were more "firstfruits" raised with Him? Perhaps. A sheaf is certainly more than one stalk of grain. Lots of other places even in the NT where firstfruits are defined and I'm yet far from familiarizing myself with all of them. It's a pretty big project. But, each harvest had three main parts, a firstfruit offering, followed by a main harvest and that followed by "gleanings" which He commanded be left behind for the poor to harvest. I feel certain in my heart I'm rooting around in the right place, but I know I don't have a complete answer yet either At this point my "best guess" is that these were old testament martyrs. Edited January 27, 2019 by Jostler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deborah_ Posted January 27, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 790 Content Per Day: 0.25 Reputation: 878 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/07/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 27, 2019 9 hours ago, Dennis1209 said: I'm not disagreeing, I believe both Old and New Testament Saints will be resurrected at the general Rapture / Resurrection. However, many were resurrected with Jesus and apparently showed themselves to family and friends. I've wondered how many, who and why? Any ideas? We're not told how many, who and why. So I've no idea. But if they had included anyone 'famous', no doubt names would have been mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Hartono Posted January 28, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 768 Topics Per Day: 0.34 Content Count: 6,929 Content Per Day: 3.08 Reputation: 1,979 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/15/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 28, 2019 On 1/26/2019 at 11:47 AM, appy said: Jesus showed the Sadducees that when God was speaking to Moses at the burning bush that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob having been buried were alive in heaven. Note the “ I am the God of “ he was telling the Sadducees that the three names mentioned were very much alive in heaven. They were already in heaven when God was speaking to Moses. May be their souls are in heaven, their bodies still at graves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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