Follow The Lamb?

[UnprofitableServantJames]

Revelation 14:3-4, "And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth...These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."

Many believe that the 144,000 are Jews. How can this be when the book of Revelation describes them as "following the Lamb (Jesus) wherever He goes." If Jews don't believe in Jesus, then how can they follow Him wherever He goes as the 144,000 are described as doing?

In peace

[Michael37]

36 minutes ago, UnprofitableServantJames said:

These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."

This takes place after the 6th seal is opened by the Lamb. God has organized the unpreventable apocalypse events to unfold in a perfect order, hence the reference to 144,000 redeemed representatives from the 12 named tribes of Israel. This speaks of the area of Divine Government in place prior to the opening of the 7th seal which ushers in the 7 trumpets and 7 vials. The Lamb is the metaphorical description of Christ as the embodiment of the Jewish Passover, which originated in the redemption of the fledgling nation of Israel from its bondage in Egypt, so it is fitting that the representative firstfruits of the endtimes special redemption of the tribes of Israel are shown as following the Lamb in  Revelation 14:4  

Rev 7:1-4
(1)  After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree.
 
(2)  Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea,
 
(3)  saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads."
 
(4)  And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
 

[Bible_Gazer]

4 hours ago, UnprofitableServantJames said:

Revelation 14:3-4, "And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth...These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."

Many believe that the 144,000 are Jews. How can this be when the book of Revelation describes them as "following the Lamb (Jesus) wherever He goes." If Jews don't believe in Jesus, then how can they follow Him wherever He goes as the 144,000 are described as doing?

In peace

redeemed from the earth = looks like they are taken from the earth and now in the heavenly MT Zion Rev.14:1 - Heb.12:22, Gal.4:26  Rev.14:8 before the throne of God.

the firstfruits =  seem to be the elects group the made it first 

Follow the Lamb = surely these are Christians

Sung a new song = Rev.5:8-9 this group sung a new song = the same son, Rev.15:1-4 this group sung a song. Must be the same group.

The 144,000 seem to become Kings and Priest, a group of people redeemed from the Earth. Rev.5:10

King = authority    Priest = handle the word of God

Another thought

If they are only Jews being the firstfruits, then could that group  have came from the early church when it was mostly just the Jews for about 4 years before the Gentiles came in.

Even tho it looks like 2 groups. 
The one is mix people the other is Jewish.

 

 

[Jostler]

12 hours ago, Bible_Gazer said:

...Another thought

If they are only Jews being the firstfruits, then could that group  have came from the early church when it was mostly just the Jews for about 4 years before the Gentiles came in.

Even tho it looks like 2 groups. 
The one is mix people the other is Jewish.

 

 

This is an interesting thought, and one I haven't settled my own mind on yet, BUT, as a so far speculative exercise, is it possible that this relates to that rather enigmatic passage in Matthew 27:50-53:

Quote

Mat 27:50

¶

And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

Mat 27:51

¶

Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split,

Mat 27:52

and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;

Mat 27:53

and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

 

I'm still working for understanding of this strange event which sounds so momentous yet we're only given this one verse (that I've found so far) and precious  little detail.  So far, I *think* I'm seeing some parallels with the "firstfruits" offering in the old temple worship system and we may find that this event is symbolized and pre-figured by that ceremony.  Right now I'm trying to discern if Jesus and some portion (or all?) of the old testament saints were raised at the resurrection as "firstfruits" in the harvest festival symbolism.

Jesus is definitely, unequivocally described as "firstfruits" but I'm seeing some (so far inconclusive) evidence the totality  of the "firstfruits" offering to God may include more than just Jesus.

Hahahah..I'm trying to be careful  here because it's a line of investigation for me, by no means am I sure of these ideas   After starting to dig into the details of the firstfruits in the old testament, I'm finding its a MUCH more complex topic than I had known.  Food for thought though

[Bible_Gazer]

9 hours ago, Jostler said:

This is an interesting thought, and one I haven't settled my own mind on yet, BUT, as a so far speculative exercise, is it possible that this relates to that rather enigmatic passage in Matthew 27:50-53:

 

I'm still working for understanding of this strange event which sounds so momentous yet we're only given this one verse (that I've found so far) and precious  little detail.  So far, I *think* I'm seeing some parallels with the "firstfruits" offering in the old temple worship system and we may find that this event is symbolized and pre-figured by that ceremony.  Right now I'm trying to discern if Jesus and some portion (or all?) of the old testament saints were raised at the resurrection as "firstfruits" in the harvest festival symbolism.

Jesus is definitely, unequivocally described as "firstfruits" but I'm seeing some (so far inconclusive) evidence the totality  of the "firstfruits" offering to God may include more than just Jesus.

Hahahah..I'm trying to be careful  here because it's a line of investigation for me, by no means am I sure of these ideas   After starting to dig into the details of the firstfruits in the old testament, I'm finding its a MUCH more complex topic than I had known.  Food for thought though

James 5:7-8 (KJV)
⁷  Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
⁸  Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

seem to be 2 harvest - could be said early rain church gathering and the latter rain church gathering . What about the in between time.

Just throwing this in - Paul said that Jesus was not returning until after the falling away. Then Jesus would come for a gathering at a later time. This would make a separation in a time span.

Personally think the falling away was the early church condition. Paul mentions trouble was coming, John in Rev. mention the troubles coming on the churches. Jesus said he would remove Ephesus church if they didn't repent. 

I heard one time or another that the 144,000 was a governmental number to do a job. In heaven and on earth. 2 separate groups.

Rev.20 does mention those who rule and reign with Christ during the 1,000 year period.  What would they be ruling about ?

Revelation 2:26-27 (KJV)
²⁶  And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
²⁷  And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Seem to be a special elect to do a special job with Jesus.

Matthew 27 resurrected group seem to be a special calling. Otherwise that would be the general resurrection for all the OT saints that would most likely could have be in the millions resurrected  and would over crowded Jerusalem. So it most likely very small group that got resurrected to be in the part of the firstfruit gathering.

 

More food for thoughts ?

 

[UnprofitableServantJames]

18 hours ago, Bible_Gazer said:

James 5:7-8 (KJV)
⁷  Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
⁸  Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

seem to be 2 harvest - could be said early rain church gathering and the latter rain church gathering . What about the in between time.

Just throwing this in - Paul said that Jesus was not returning until after the falling away. Then Jesus would come for a gathering at a later time. This would make a separation in a time span.

Personally think the falling away was the early church condition. Paul mentions trouble was coming, John in Rev. mention the troubles coming on the churches. Jesus said he would remove Ephesus church if they didn't repent. 

I heard one time or another that the 144,000 was a governmental number to do a job. In heaven and on earth. 2 separate groups.

Rev.20 does mention those who rule and reign with Christ during the 1,000 year period.  What would they be ruling about ?

Revelation 2:26-27 (KJV)
²⁶  And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
²⁷  And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Seem to be a special elect to do a special job with Jesus.

Matthew 27 resurrected group seem to be a special calling. Otherwise that would be the general resurrection for all the OT saints that would most likely could have be in the millions resurrected  and would over crowded Jerusalem. So it most likely very small group that got resurrected to be in the part of the firstfruit gathering.

 

More food for thoughts ?

 

I tend to think that the 144k are those that will be kings and priests towards those that are still on the Earth during the 1000 years. They are the ones that knows Jesus more than anyone, and are able to teach others to do the same. This is what I think Rev 2:26-27 is talking about. How can the 144k be rulers if there is no one to rule over?? Of course, they will be ruling with love unlike the kings of the Earth rule today. One interesting observation is how Jesus says, "those who keepeth my works onto the end". What are these works He is referring to? It seems that it is something we can stop doing at some point, since we must do them until the end... Others thoughts?

In peace

[Bible_Gazer]

4 hours ago, UnprofitableServantJames said:

I tend to think that the 144k are those that will be kings and priests towards those that are still on the Earth during the 1000 years. They are the ones that knows Jesus more than anyone, and are able to teach others to do the same. This is what I think Rev 2:26-27 is talking about. How can the 144k be rulers if there is no one to rule over?? Of course, they will be ruling with love unlike the kings of the Earth rule today. One interesting observation is how Jesus says, "those who keepeth my works onto the end". What are these works He is referring to? It seems that it is something we can stop doing at some point, since we must do them until the end... Others thoughts?

In peace

I think also that they know Jesus very well and they are like him and they have the Father's name in their forehead. Nothing like those in the beast system.

Its seem like the works they will do is help cleanup this world, first try by converting or Revelation 2:26-27 (KJV)
²⁶  And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
²⁷  And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

We see at the end of the finality(1,000 years) when they  have accomplished their duty with Jesus, God calls it a quit, finally gets what he want out of humanity. Those who refuses to worship God will die.

Whether there is one group of 144k or 2 different groups they are a special elect for to do a job that God will ordain.

Revelation 3:21 (KJV)
²¹  To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Revelation 20:4 (KJV)
⁴  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: 
 

Must be part of that rulership and reigning with Christ during that 1,000 to prepare for the Holy city to come down from Heaven . Rev.21

We all need to follow the Lamb.

 

[WilliamL]

On 1/22/2019 at 2:16 AM, UnprofitableServantJames said:

Revelation 14:3-4, "And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth...These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."

Many believe that the 144,000 are Jews. How can this be when the book of Revelation describes them as "following the Lamb (Jesus) wherever He goes."

If Jews don't believe in Jesus, then how can they follow Him wherever He goes as the 144,000 are described as doing?

Because they will believe in Jesus when they see Him coming in the clouds of heaven:

Rev. 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

Matt. 26:63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!” 64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Zech. 12:10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn."

 

 

[Marlene S]

On 1/22/2019 at 9:53 PM, Jostler said:

This is an interesting thought, and one I haven't settled my own mind on yet, BUT, as a so far speculative exercise, is it possible that this relates to that rather enigmatic passage in Matthew 27:50-53:

 

I'm still working for understanding of this strange event which sounds so momentous yet we're only given this one verse (that I've found so far) and precious  little detail.  So far, I *think* I'm seeing some parallels with the "firstfruits" offering in the old temple worship system and we may find that this event is symbolized and pre-figured by that ceremony.  Right now I'm trying to discern if Jesus and some portion (or all?) of the old testament saints were raised at the resurrection as "firstfruits" in the harvest festival symbolism.

Jesus is definitely, unequivocally described as "firstfruits" but I'm seeing some (so far inconclusive) evidence the totality  of the "firstfruits" offering to God may include more than just Jesus.

Hahahah..I'm trying to be careful  here because it's a line of investigation for me, by no means am I sure of these ideas   After starting to dig into the details of the firstfruits in the old testament, I'm finding its a MUCH more complex topic than I had known.  Food for thought though

There are so many missing details on many of the important things we should understand. What do we do when we really cannot find the info needed to fully understand what is being said?

I believe that Christ Jesus did not leave anything hidden from us when He came and fulfilled the Law. The problem is that there are those today and in the past, from the beginning of the Church who do not want us/ the world to know the truth about Jesus Christ.

Remember that Satan sits on the throne here. He rules over the world-system.

I have been a Christian for over 40 years now and I have been seeking after old religious manuscripts for a long time. I have found many. Some are questionable as to their authenticity, but sometimes you find one that is just incredible.

A couple of years ago the Vatican released this Gospel which is said to have been in the Vatican vaults for almost 2000 years. I did post it on another thread 'Seek and ye shall find', but it did not get much reading. I think it is important the every Christians reads it.

It is not a gnostic or agnostic text. It had been hidden for a reason and when you read it you will see why.

It is called 'The Gospel of Nicodemus' or the Acts of Pontius Pilate. Do not judge the text before you read it. It is not long, but it explains so many things. The link is below; you can decide if it is from Christ or not.

The Gospel Of Nicodemus.pdf (PDFy mirror)

[backontrack]

On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 2:16 AM, UnprofitableServantJames said:

Revelation 14:3-4, "And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth...These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."

Many believe that the 144,000 are Jews. How can this be when the book of Revelation describes them as "following the Lamb (Jesus) wherever He goes." If Jews don't believe in Jesus, then how can they follow Him wherever He goes as the 144,000 are described as doing?

In peace

Hum out of the millions of Jews in the world maybe there are 144,000 believers?