How does God allow pain & suffering?

[John2019]

Hi, I hope everyone is well,

I'm a guy in my early 20s, from the UK, and I have been toying with the belief in God, Jesus Christ, for a couple of years now. I come from a non-religious family.

There's quite a few things that stop me from totally believing, but one of the main ones is the idea of all the pain and suffering in the world. I know this is a very generic and hard to totally answer question, and something that non-religious people often say, but it is truly confusing me.

I just cannot understand how God doesn't stop Christ-loving, devout Christians from being brutally murdered, being in extreme & painful car crashes, getting kidnaped.. you get the idea. The reasonings I seem to understand the most (but not completely) is that of course God gives people freewill, and sadly some few people use that freewill to commit evil acts against others, - but so many more people do great and kind things too. I just wish he gave freewill, but also took evil acts out of peoples minds! 

I also really cannot understand the things that humans, no matter how evil, cannot control but God could - like car crashes (ones that are not caused by people, ones caused by icy roads maybe), natural disasters, etc.. I have such a fear of being in a car crash..lol!! 

I'm hoping someone on this forum could please help me with my struggle on this idea, as it really is stopping me from believing in Him.

Thank you very much in advance, for any replies :) 

[thomas t]

Hi John,

thank you for asking.

To introduce myself, I'm Thomas, 38 years old and I believe in Jesus.

 

Only God can answer your question, I think.

But I sure can answer part of it! You did, too, when you wrote that God gave free will.

On 1/24/2019 at 8:16 PM, John2019 said:

I just cannot understand how God doesn't stop Christ-loving, devout Christians from being brutally murdered,

perhaps it would be more helpful, if you could try to ask those who actively persecute Christians? Ask a government who does so, ask families who persecute converts and so on...

On 1/24/2019 at 8:16 PM, John2019 said:

I also really cannot understand the things that humans, no matter how evil, cannot control but God could - like car crashes (ones that are not caused by people, ones caused by icy roads maybe)

Here, I can reply. If someone cannot be sure of controlling his or her vehicle... they simply shouldn't drive, I think. If it's an icy road and you have the feeling that you can't control your car anytime at a speed of 6 kmh ... don't go any faster than 5 kmh ?.

On 1/24/2019 at 8:16 PM, John2019 said:

natural disasters

May I ask you beforehand... you are sure that you don't want to simply discuss "normal" ends of life that are also caused by God.. ?

And you want to leave the topic of man made disasters? You could as well ask those people who are responsible for their disasters causing many casualties, too? Sometimes these disasters look quite the same as natural disasters.

Great to engage with you in a discussion.

Thomas

Edited January 27, 2019 by thomas t
punctuation

[Who me]

On 1/24/2019 at 7:16 PM, John2019 said:

how God doesn't stop Christ-loving, devout Christians from being brutally murdered, being in extreme & painful car crashes, getting kidnaped

It wouldbe nice, become a Christian and nothing in life can hurt you.

Step in front of a speeding lorry, you'll come out unhurt!

Jump over a skyscrapper and land lightly on the ground!

 

Unfortunetly God is wiser than us and doesn't do that.

We all experience everything that comes our way. There is one difference, Jesus promised an eturnity to those who trusted in him and an eturnity separeted from him for those who didn't trust him.

Pain and suffering is real and horible, you will still have to face it what ever you decide, but what of eturnity?

What of Jesus? Historian accept he lived and died. They also accept that the disciples believed they had met with a resurrected Jesus.

Strangly those same disciples went on to die horrible deaths because thgey said they had met the risen Jesus.

What is your answer to what happened?

Did Jesus rise from the dead? If he did you need to pay attention to what he said.

[Billiards Ball]

On 1/24/2019 at 2:16 PM, John2019 said:

Hi, I hope everyone is well,

I'm a guy in my early 20s, from the UK, and I have been toying with the belief in God, Jesus Christ, for a couple of years now. I come from a non-religious family.

There's quite a few things that stop me from totally believing, but one of the main ones is the idea of all the pain and suffering in the world. I know this is a very generic and hard to totally answer question, and something that non-religious people often say, but it is truly confusing me.

I just cannot understand how God doesn't stop Christ-loving, devout Christians from being brutally murdered, being in extreme & painful car crashes, getting kidnaped.. you get the idea. The reasonings I seem to understand the most (but not completely) is that of course God gives people freewill, and sadly some few people use that freewill to commit evil acts against others, - but so many more people do great and kind things too. I just wish he gave freewill, but also took evil acts out of peoples minds! 

I also really cannot understand the things that humans, no matter how evil, cannot control but God could - like car crashes (ones that are not caused by people, ones caused by icy roads maybe), natural disasters, etc.. I have such a fear of being in a car crash..lol!! 

I'm hoping someone on this forum could please help me with my struggle on this idea, as it really is stopping me from believing in Him.

Thank you very much in advance, for any replies

Sounds like you need to explore what free will is:

Several times, I've spoken to bitter victims of rape. Each time, I've asked, "What should God have done?" and they said, "Stop my rapist." 

When I said, "Should you have free will but not the rapist?" they "got it" and soon after, prayed about forgiveness for their rapist and healing from God.

I'm glad you are zeroing in on a decision to trust Jesus Christ for salvation. It will help to know that the Bible describes dozens of purposes for suffering, but nearly all of them as benefiting people, mainly born again Christians.

We suffer to learn in school, we suffer to exercise and eat right, and make tough decisions and find love...

Suffering is a part of life now.

[enoob57]

On ‎1‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 1:16 PM, John2019 said:

I just cannot understand how God doesn't stop Christ-loving, devout Christians from being brutally murdered, being in extreme & painful car crashes, getting kidnaped.. you get the idea. The reasonings I seem to understand the most (but not completely) is that of course God gives people freewill, and sadly some few people use that freewill to commit evil acts against others, - but so many more people do great and kind things too. I just wish he gave freewill, but also took evil acts out of peoples minds! 

God in the beginning created man in His Own Image and this is the key to understand your question... God has always been an He exists in three Persons: Father, Son, Holy Spirit and there has been nothing else for Their Being 'IS' eternity

Isa 44:8

8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
KJV

Now because we have beginning we cannot fully understand that which is of no begin and no end and only tells the truth... it is here the rubber hits the road! Either you believe God or you do not~ that simple! But imagine going before Him with excuse for why you did not believe Him... especially in view of this event for all who are of this way calling God a liar:

Rev 20:11-12

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
KJV

What God is telling us in this time >that anything created corporeal stuff< 'that which is all we have known entirely by our begin and senses' will be gone and thus a reference to that which is no more as excuse will also be gone and all will be examined without the idolatry of created essence to use as excuse AND our activity will be of no excuse as to why but that we chose to do so on our own authority.... The common will be 'I did not know' but God has already told us this

Rom 1:20

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
KJV

Just by being in the things God has made places all men without excuse for not knowing that He 'IS'...
 

When we followed after the lie, in the garden, we actually called God a liar and that which was created a truth teller (satan) and this is the simple situation you are in! You either believe God and His Word Genesis-Revelation 66 books or you don't but you will be without excuse for you were created to be such with choice as God Himself has without end... the question of God's right to anything will fade from your mind as you read and understand the Scriptures!

On ‎1‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 1:16 PM, John2019 said:

I also really cannot understand the things that humans, no matter how evil, cannot control but God could - like car crashes (ones that are not caused by people, ones caused by icy roads maybe), natural disasters, etc.. I have such a fear of being in a car crash..lol!!

God did not choose this fallen world for us but made a perfect one... we chose to destroy the one He made for us by following after lucifer. God speaks of your fear

Heb 2:14-15

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
KJV

We the born again of God know this freedom from fear of death... in fact it is one way we experience the work of The Holy Spirit within our new living spirit within 'we do not fear death'... read the foxes book of martyrs! It 'IS' reality within us... Prayed for you... Love, Steven 

[Stu of Whoville]

Okay John2019,

I've thought about this for many years and this is the way it seems to me.

1) in the beginning God created a perfect world. We read about that in the book of Genesis. Genesis chapter 1 speaks about a six day creation in which God made the sun, moon and stars, planets, oceans, dry land, fish in the sea, birds in the air, animals on the land and finally human beings. At the end of each day God looked at the things he had made and declared them good. After he made mankind he declared it very good.

2) human beings messed up God's very good plan.  Because of willful rebellion against God, a curse entered into the earth.  I have never been certain whether God himself laid that curse upon the good thing he made, or if the curse was a natural consequence of human rebellion. Either way, thorns, earthquakes, hurricanes, disease, pain in childbirth and all manner of other things came into the world because the first man and woman rebelled against God.

3) that first sin was self-centeredness. Sin means to prioritize what I want to do over what God wants me to do. Every wicked thing that a person does can be traced back to putting what they want first over what is right.  That self-centeredness has been passed down from the first man and woman to all people born after that generation after generation. We are still putting ourselves first. We are still doing what we want instead of what God wants for us.

4) As long as sin (prioritizing what I want over what God wants) exists on the earth then that consequence of sin (which we call the curse) will also exist. God has given us the right to decide for ourselves what we will or won't do. Therefore, every time we do something we should not do it reinforces the power of this curse to wreak havoc on the earth. God cannot be held responsible since we keep sowing the wind and end up reaping the whirlwind generation after generation. The real reason why bad things happen in the world is because we keep doing what bad things.

5) so if God was going to get rid of the curse ( which is the natural consequences visited upon us because of the bad things we do) then he would have to take away our freedom of choice. We would no longer have the right to sin. We would either become robots that must obey, or the consequences of disobedience would become so severe no one could survive them. Either way there would be no freedom to choose.

6) that means that you wouldn't have the right to choose the toothpaste you want to use. You would only be allowed to use the one that is best for you. You would no longer have the choice to drive your car in bad weather. That clearly is dangerous and therefore you would be prohibited from doing so. You would no longer be allowed to pay your water bill late because that would cause hardship for the company. Therefore the freedom to spend your money the way you want to would be taken away from you. Is this the world you want to live in?

7) If there is no freedom to choose against God, then there is also no freedom to choose for God. If I'm allowed to only make one choice then there isn't actually any choice. This would make null and void the entire plan of God for humanity. He created us and gave us a choice so that we could choose to be with him. He is creating a companion for himself. He is creating a companion who wants to be with him. If we cannot choose him then he didn't actually create a companion, he created only a robot that he secretly controls. How good of a companion could that ever be?

? we must also remember that the hardship of earth is only for a little while. This thing we call time is only a wide spot in the road located between two eternities (eternity past an eternity future.)  In those eternities there will be no sin, or disease, or death, or pain.  This dark world of grief and loss (the natural consequence of the choices we make) is only for a little while. Once the great project is complete. Once God has created a companion fit for himself. Once we have chosen him above all else then the curse will be lifted and the consequences of sin will disappear. Therefore this hardship is only for a little while.

9) it is also worth noting that the Church of Jesus Christ has been the single greatest force on earth to bind up the brokenhearted, to give food to the hungry, and to give healing the sick. That's why most of the hospitals are named St. somebody or other because that hospital was started by a church organization. That's why most of the food kitchens are an outreach arm of the church. That's why missionaries going to foreign mission fields take medical supplies with them so that they can treat those most in need of medical care. God's people are doing God's work to care for those in need. This, I think, is a foretaste of what God will do when life on earth is ended and time is no more.

10) so my argument is this.  Every bad thing on earth came about because of us. When we quit sinning then bad things will stop happening. God has already made a plan for a sin free, disease-free world. And those who are doing the most to correct the effects of the curse in the here and now are the people of God.

So that's my argument.  Let me know what you think of it. 

Edited February 4, 2019 by Stu of Whoville
smiley appeared for no reason. No reason at all I tell you. Well, I guess I can't stop it from appearing!

[nobleseed]

On 1/25/2019 at 5:16 AM, John2019 said:

Hi, I hope everyone is well,

I'm a guy in my early 20s, from the UK, and I have been toying with the belief in God, Jesus Christ, for a couple of years now. I come from a non-religious family.

There's quite a few things that stop me from totally believing, but one of the main ones is the idea of all the pain and suffering in the world. I know this is a very generic and hard to totally answer question, and something that non-religious people often say, but it is truly confusing me.

I just cannot understand how God doesn't stop Christ-loving, devout Christians from being brutally murdered, being in extreme & painful car crashes, getting kidnaped.. you get the idea. The reasonings I seem to understand the most (but not completely) is that of course God gives people freewill, and sadly some few people use that freewill to commit evil acts against others, - but so many more people do great and kind things too. I just wish he gave freewill, but also took evil acts out of peoples minds! 

I also really cannot understand the things that humans, no matter how evil, cannot control but God could - like car crashes (ones that are not caused by people, ones caused by icy roads maybe), natural disasters, etc.. I have such a fear of being in a car crash..lol!! 

I'm hoping someone on this forum could please help me with my struggle on this idea, as it really is stopping me from believing in Him.

Thank you very much in advance, for any replies

pain tell us somethings wrong and suffering makes us strong and the world is evil, its usually the world the causes pain and suffering but God uses it for his own ends, read Genesis, the story of Joseph

[Walk Softly]

Hi @John2019!! 

I will likely approach this question in a far different manner than most.  Your reluctance boils down to a morality issue against God.  I get it and I've certainly been there.  

See, I can offer any number of explanations for the evil things we see in the world and come to the defense of God.  All the while, you can respond with just as many rebuttals or specific incidents to counter my points.  The problem still boils down to a morality issue with God. 

Before I begin, I will make one quick comment for you to think about when it comes to the evils of the world.

Without the propensity to do evil, the ability to choose love would have no actual value.

Now, I'm going to flip the tables on you a bit and step into your worldview that there is no God.  I will be as gentle as my rough personality will allow. 

If there is no God, on what grounds do you morally object to evil in the world? 

What I mean by this is, without an external referent of absolute morality (God), what do you use to judge right from wrong?  Good from bad?

Let me give you an example.  If there is no God, and we evolved out of the primordial soup via random chemical reactions, then our brains are nothing more than random chemicals fizzing, creating our thoughts and ideals.  We basically evolved from animals.  This random fizzing takes away our ability to operate on free will.  We can't control the random reactions in our brains.  

Do we place the tiger in jail for murdering it's prey?  No, that would be absurd.  Why are our chemical reactions any different than that of the tiger?  Do you get upset at the baking soda when it reacts with vinegar?  I doubt it. 

Basically, in a worldview where there is no God, we are random products of our chemical reactions, to which we have no control.  Why would we be upset with one set of chemical reactions interacting with another set of chemical reactions?  It's survival of the fittest.  It's nature.  We are nothing more than the animals we came from. 

See, it's clear you don't live your life believing there is no God.  If you place any value in the life of a toddler over that of a mosquito, then you are living as though humans were created in the image of God.  All unbelievers are forced to stand on the foundation of God, even while denying God's existence. 

There are some common attempts to explain where morality can come from, aside from God.  Typically they are iterations of either personal preference or societal convention.  I'm happy to discuss any objections you might have to my conclusions. 

I pray you continue to search, honestly, for answers.  He will hear you, and He will answer you.  You just need to listen.  Be blessed, John. 

Edited February 6, 2019 by Walk Softly

[simplejeff]

On 1/24/2019 at 1:16 PM, John2019 said:

There's quite a few things that stop me from totally believing, but one of the main ones is the idea of all the pain and suffering in the world. I know this is a very generic and hard to totally answer question, and something that non-religious people often say, but it is truly confusing me.

The whole world refuses to repent (refuses to even turn to God);    and the whole world is doomed.     See Corrie ten Booms testimonies on various youbutes :) videos online,  or any of her books.   It doesn't matter if they are confused or not,  the whole world is doomed because of sin. 

God , through Jesus, provides the only escape.  He did not have to.   He does not have to save anyone.    They choose to stay in sin, unsaved,  doomed.

Today,  if you hear HIM,  do not disobey.   Do not rebel.  

[Figure of eighty]

On ‎2‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 9:57 AM, Billiards Ball said:

Sounds like you need to explore what free will is:

Several times, I've spoken to bitter victims of rape. Each time, I've asked, "What should God have done?" and they said, "Stop my rapist." 

When I said, "Should you have free will but not the rapist?" they "got it" and soon after, prayed about forgiveness for their rapist and healing from God.

I'm glad you are zeroing in on a decision to trust Jesus Christ for salvation. It will help to know that the Bible describes dozens of purposes for suffering, but nearly all of them as benefiting people, mainly born again Christians.

We suffer to learn in school, we suffer to exercise and eat right, and make tough decisions and find love...

Suffering is a part of life now.

I'm glad what you said helped them... but my question would be why does God intervene for some and not others. Ive been in situations where I could have been taken advantage of like that.. if anything would have happened it would have been my fault and I accept that but it didn't, it never did and I'm thankful for that. But I just wonder like why was I protected and another not? Like one of friends had decent parents while a couple others were victims of rape. Some people go through with suicide while God stops some..Ive read stories of both. I honeslty feel there a bit of both free will yet Gods sovereignty. I don't know to the OP I don't know why certain things are allowed..I just don't.