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Why Pretrib Logic Fails


JoeCanada

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3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I know more about the books Revelation or Daniel than anyone you have ever known in all likelihood. 

 

2 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Instruct or pass on only what you think is correct.  I don't agree with much of your end times senero's either. 

Gentlemen,

It seems that no matter what scriptures are presented to refute the illogical fallacy of the pre-trib rapture will alter your preconceived notions. You can adhere to the teachings of Dr Thomas Ice, Jan Markell and a host of others all you want. They have been shown the error of their teachings by Joel Richardson, Alan Kurschner, Mark Davidson and Nelson Walters just to name a few. Yet, they press on. And why wouldn't they. Pre-trib is big money. 

No-one wants to hear what pre-wrath teaches. Who wants to hear that they will suffer during the Great Tribulation. Very few. That they may have to lay down their lives. Few. That they won't be able to buy or sell, feed their kids. Few. That they will suffer terrible persecution. Few. Yet, that is what Scriptures plainly teaches.

Revman....you say you have been teaching for, what, 30 years or so. What does that prove. If what you teach does not line up with Scripture, then it is all in vain. Jesus warns us about teachers, that they will be judged harder than others, if their teaching is not correct. 

JW's used the same line when they come calling. We've been teaching for many years. Well, it doesn't matter how long they've been teaching, if what they are teaching is wrong.

I'll put this challenge out.

Show me anywhere in Scripture that specifically points to a Pre-Trib Rapture. A specific verse that says the Resurrection and Rapture happen pre-trib. And show the timing of it with a Scripture. You should be able to do this with a few verses. 

A preacher put this challenge out to pre-trib teachers before. And he offered $1,000 to anyone who could provide proof from Scripture. He's still waiting.

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19 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

 

Gentlemen,

It seems that no matter what scriptures are presented to refute the illogical fallacy of the pre-trib rapture will alter your preconceived notions. You can adhere to the teachings of Dr Thomas Ice, Jan Markell and a host of others all you want. They have been shown the error of their teachings by Joel Richardson, Alan Kurschner, Mark Davidson and Nelson Walters just to name a few. Yet, they press on. And why wouldn't they. Pre-trib is big money. 

No-one wants to hear what pre-wrath teaches. Who wants to hear that they will suffer during the Great Tribulation. Very few. That they may have to lay down their lives. Few. That they won't be able to buy or sell, feed their kids. Few. That they will suffer terrible persecution. Few. Yet, that is what Scriptures plainly teaches.

Revman....you say you have been teaching for, what, 30 years or so. What does that prove. If what you teach does not line up with Scripture, then it is all in vain. Jesus warns us about teachers, that they will be judged harder than others, if their teaching is not correct. 

JW's used the same line when they come calling. We've been teaching for many years. Well, it doesn't matter how long they've been teaching, if what they are teaching is wrong.

I'll put this challenge out.

Show me anywhere in Scripture that specifically points to a Pre-Trib Rapture. A specific verse that says the Resurrection and Rapture happen pre-trib. And show the timing of it with a Scripture. You should be able to do this with a few verses. 

A preacher put this challenge out to pre-trib teachers before. And he offered $1,000 to anyone who could provide proof from Scripture. He's still waiting.

Why do you contest God the Father.  God the Father is the only one who knows this time, Not the Son, nor the Angels.  Yet you say pre-wrath, others say mid-trib, and yet others say post-trib.  I never see you attacking these illogical fallacies.  You only attack pre-trib, Why because you are afraid of it. You must do something to show your worthiness. I must go through one more test to show my love for God.

But once the 70th Week begins, the clock starts ticking towards Armageddon and the 2nd Coming, which are both known dates and can be figured out.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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23 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

Why do you contest God the Father.  God the Father is the only one who knows this time, Not the Son, nor the Angels.  Yet you say pre-wrath, others say mid-trib, and yet others say post-trib.  I never see you attacking these illogical fallacies.  You only attack pre-trib, Why because you are afraid of it. You must do something to show your worthiness. I must go through one more test to show my love for God.

But once the 70th Week begins, the clock starts ticking towards Armageddon and the 2nd Coming, which are both known dates and can be figured out.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Hi MM, 

I don't attack. I try and point out the illogical teaching of pre-trib. Why? No, it's not because I'm afraid of it. What I am afraid of is the new Christians that adhere to its teachings, thinking that because 90% of the Church believes it, well, it must be right. Everyone has bought into it because that is what the pulpit teaches. Many ministers just regurgitate what others teach, without even questioning it, or looking into the scriptures to see if it is right or not. What ever happened to being a Berean, checking Scripture to see if what is being taught is right.

For example.....Pre-trib says that Jesus does not know the timing of His coming for the Saints. I challenge that. Since it is He who opens up the seals, He knows when He is coming back.  Right after He opens up the 6th seal. He may not know the day or the hour, but He most certainly knows the timing. The cosmological event that Joel describes will last for several days, maybe even a week. It is during this time that the Father executes the time when His Son will come for His Saints, those dead and those alive. Resurrection and Rapture. The main harvest!

So, if you're not up for the challenge, I completely understand. 

Respectfully, 

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On 1/25/2019 at 2:58 PM, JoeCanada said:
  •       Why Pretrib Logic Fails Miserably on the Daniel’s Seventy-Weeks Prophecy          by Alan E. Kurschner

Here is the pretrib logic:

Pretribs reason that since the Seventy-Weeks prophecy in Daniel  9:24–27 was given to Israel,the Church cannot “exist” on earth during any of its fulfillment.

Here is why this common pretrib argument fails:

First, pretribs such as Crone would have to deny that the Church exists during the New Covenant fulfillment, since Jeremiah prophesied specifically to “the people of Israel and Judah.” (See Jeremiah 31:31–34). I am sure that Billy Crone would admit that he is a New Covenantbeliever.

Pretribs cannot have their cake and eat it too. This obvious logical inconsistency seems to escape their minds.

The New Covenant was not made with the Church, but the Church is governed under this covenant as the New Testament teaches that the New Covenant was extended to the Gentiles. We have to look to the New Testament for its progressive revelation to learn these matters.

Why can the New Covenant that was made to Israel be applied additionally to Gentiles, but the 70 weeks prophecy made to Israel cannot also include God working with the Church at the same time?

We are never told.

Billy Crone and other pretribs are myopic and do not allow the New Testament progressive revelation to give us more information about the particulars of the 70th week of Daniel.

Many more examples could be given from the Old Testament. Here is another one:

Peter in Acts 2:16-21 is citing from a prophecy from Joel that was given to Israel and applying it also to the new Church situation. You cannot have a more explicit OT prophecy made to Israel while also including an application of its fulfillment to the Church.

Second, pretrib logic on this issue simply does not follow. It makes a category error by confusing what with when.

They argue that since the Church did not exist during the first 69 sets of seven years (483 years), therefore the Church cannot be there for the last seven years. That is a non sequitur. It fails logically.

The fact that the Church did not exist at the time of the first part of this prophecy (69 sets of seven years, 483 years), who is to say that God is not going to work with both the Church and Israel during the last part of this prophecy? The Church does exist now. So logically it can be here for the last seven years.

When you allow for New Testament progressive revelation, you can learn more than what the Old Testament reveals. Imagine that!

And just to clarify these prophecies to Israel are not being replaced by the Church. The New Testament is simply telling us that God is expanding his redemptive program to the Gentiles, while he keeps his promises to Israel.

The Danielic passage is addressing Israel. Pretribs is trying to say more than it does by making it say that no other redemptive group can exist at that time.

Third, God has worked with both Israel and the Church at the same time in the past and he does in the present.

In the past:

Jesus made a prophecy to Israel about God’s judgment upon them (Matt 24:1–2; Luke 19:43–44).

When was this prophecy to Israel fulfilled? It happened in AD 70—during the Church age! Do you know where I am going with this?

Once again, why are we told that the prophecy to Israel about the 70 weeks excludes any fulfillment during the Church age, but a prophecy to Israel about its judgment is not?

When you have a theological system such as pretribulationism built on a web of assumptions, you will inevitably face internal inconsistencies.

In the present:

God also works with Israel and the Church at the same time, not just in the past, but the present:

“(19) But again I ask, didn’t Israel understand? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous by those who are not a nation; with a senseless nation I will provoke you to anger.” (20) And Isaiah is even bold enough to say, “I was found by those who did not seek me; I became well known to those who did not ask for me.” (Rom 10:19–20)

“I ask then, they did not stumble into an irrevocable fall, did they? Absolutely not! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make Israel jealous.” (Rom 11:11)

“For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: A partial hardening has happened to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.” (Rom 11:25)

These passages teach that God in this present Church age is working with Israel to make them “jealous.”

These reasons are sufficient to show that pretrib logic fails miserably when they claim that the Church “cannot be here” for the last part of Daniel’s prophecy.

Hi Joe,

You are right about the assumptions being wrong. I agree that "part" of the Church will still be here during the tribulation. The ten virgins, slothful servant, "coins" and other parables in the same context illustrate a "partial" rapture. Although some are left behind, one question has to be were they "true" believers? The metaphors seem to pop up everywhere, (like the wheat and tares and wild olive branches being grafted into the vine), but always with a warning attached. 

Pre-trib logic (as well as pretty much all broadly accepted pre millennial outlines) fails because the false assumption of 7 remaining years cannot be accounted for without encountering major contradictions in the rest of Biblical prophecy. The end of the 69th week being the cross also cannot hold up to logic and reason when compared to both Biblical and historical evidence.

Anyway, I know you disagree with me on this right now, but I hope you can examine the end of the 69th week closer and maybe even at least try to look at prophecy with the assumption being only 3.5 years remaining instead of 7. It can all be understood much more clearly and logically than ever before.

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13 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi MM, 

I don't attack. I try and point out the illogical teaching of pre-trib. Why? No, it's not because I'm afraid of it. What I am afraid of is the new Christians that adhere to its teachings, thinking that because 90% of the Church believes it, well, it must be right. Everyone has bought into it because that is what the pulpit teaches. Many ministers just regurgitate what others teach, without even questioning it, or looking into the scriptures to see if it is right or not. What ever happened to being a Berean, checking Scripture to see if what is being taught is right.

For example.....Pre-trib says that Jesus does not know the timing of His coming for the Saints. I challenge that. Since it is He who opens up the seals, He knows when He is coming back.  Right after He opens up the 6th seal. He may not know the day or the hour, but He most certainly knows the timing. The cosmological event that Joel describes will last for several days, maybe even a week. It is during this time that the Father executes the time when His Son will come for His Saints, those dead and those alive. Resurrection and Rapture. The main harvest!

So, if you're not up for the challenge, I completely understand. 

Respectfully, 

He has already taken the Bride before He opens the Seals.  The 70 Seven year periods are all about Israel.  When the final One Seven is completed Israel will have accepted their Messiah.  Can you show me where the Church was involved in the fisrt 69 Weeks.

Yet, I show how pre-wrath, mid-trib, and post-trib positions are illogical.  They do not conform.  They provide many, many Scriptures to validate their positions, But Scripture says that is only, God the Father who knows the timing for the Rapture.  Jesus Christ is the written Word and He does not know its time.  So this throws your 6th Seal out the window.  Once the clocks timer begins, then all will be known.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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2 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Show me anywhere in Scripture that specifically points to a Pre-Trib Rapture

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the LordWherefore comfort one another with these words.   1 Th 4:13-18

The Holy Spirit speaking through Paul wants us to be comforted with what He is teaching, ...show us any comfort in what you are saying!

And, how about logically answering my first post...

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2 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Show me anywhere in Scripture that specifically points to a Pre-Trib Rapture

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the LordWherefore comfort one another with these words.   1 Th 4:13-18

The Holy Spirit speaking through Paul wants us to be comforted with what He is teaching, ...show us any comfort in what you are saying!

And, ...how about logically answering my first post...

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On 1/25/2019 at 7:51 PM, Revelation Man said:

Whoever this guy is, his logic fails right off the bat. Our reason why the Church is not on earth during the 70th week is "OUR MISSION" on earth is finished.  Jesus specifically states in Matt. 24:14 that when the Gospel has been preached unto all the world, then the end will come. And in Romans 11:25 we see that Israel will be blinded IN PART, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in, then they will see again, meaning God will call them unto him once again via Elijah and the Holy Spirit. 

The 70th Weeks is called Jacob's Troubles, I wonder why ? Ohhh, it has been designed to bring Israel unto repentance. The Church has already repented, thus they are worthy of Heaven by the blood of the Lamb, since "OUR MISSION" on earth is over, you tell me what the logic would be of the Church staying on earth !! God's Wrath will be brought to bear on wicked mankind starting in the Middle of the week, the first 3.5 years will be a FAKE PEACE, then the Anti-Christ reneges on his Agreements. Th Church is in Heaven marrying the Lamb at this time, just like Rev. 19 shows along Rev. 4, 5 and 7 .

1 Cor, 15 and 1 Thess. 4 also tells us of this coming Rapture to meet Jesus in the AIR.....The logic that the Church goes to meet Jesus in the AIR just to return straight back down to earth is so ILLOGICAL I wonder how anyone states that with a straight face, there would have to be a big sideways grin. Plus we are shown coming back from Heaven in Rev. chapter 19, so the only thing that is illogical would be any Rapture except the Pre-trib Rapture.

Wow, just wow, this guy, whoever he is, is really short on logic. For starters he doesn't really understand that the New Covenant was the OLDEST COVENANT in reality, it was THE PROMISE to Abraham, FULFILLED !! The coming of the PROMISED MESSIAH. But God prophesied that all mankind would be called under this Blood Sacrifice Covenant, not just Israel. 

 

Gentiles will turn to God during the 70th Week also. They are the Martyrs under the 5th Seal. So both Jews and Gentiles repent during the Church Age and both Jews and Gentiles repent during the 70th Week so his whole thesis is just not logical on its face. He actually things he has a point here !! Wow.

 

Hi RM,

The churches "Mission" won't be completed UNTIL the return of Christ. That is why the church goes thru the tribulation...70th week. It will be the Churches greatest time of testimony. If they are raptured before the 70th week, then who will be left to testify? Certainly NOT the Jews. They won't accept Christ till the end of the tribulation. And it can't be the unchurched gentiles who are left. What do they know?

"the New Covenant is the oldest Covenant in reality".....

Your rebuttal is anything but logical. You don't even address the issue.

Respectfully,

 

 

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3 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

who will be left to testify? Certainly NOT the Jews.

What do you do with:

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Re 14:6

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15 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Gentlemen,

It seems that no matter what scriptures are presented to refute the illogical fallacy of the pre-trib rapture will alter your preconceived notions.

You mean the ones I answered but you seemingly can't give a simple rebut to ? 

15 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

You can adhere to the teachings of Dr Thomas Ice, Jan Markell and a host of others all you want. They have been shown the error of their teachings by Joel Richardson, Alan Kurschner, Mark Davidson and Nelson Walters just to name a few. Yet, they press on. And why wouldn't they. Pre-trib is big money. 

For starters, one thing I never do, unless it's the Armstrong teachings, is try to associate anyone with other peoples teachings, God teaches me, and I read many other people's work, some I agree with and some I find that I disagree with, but the Holy Spirit should be our guide in the end. Just because the 75 to 85 percent or vast majority of Christendom doesn't agree with your positions on the Rapture, doesn't make us all disciples of so and so, stop trying to peg everyone who disagrees with you brother, you are in the vast minority as per the Rapture beliefs,  but I am not trying to pigeonhole you as being a follower of X, Y, or Z !! It is what it is. Pre trib is fact as per the Church as far as I am concerned. 

15 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

No-one wants to hear what pre-wrath teaches. Who wants to hear that they will suffer during the Great Tribulation. Very few. That they may have to lay down their lives. Few. That they won't be able to buy or sell, feed their kids. Few. That they will suffer terrible persecution. Few. Yet, that is what Scriptures plainly teaches.

I can hear it, but I heard it long ago and read the bible and saw that the pre tribulation rapture was the only POV that jibed with the bible IMHO. I can hear anything, but when I point out FACTUAL REASONS/Scriptures why it can't be true and all I get is crickets, I take that as people are just too entrenched in positions to change, for whatever reason, what I never do is get entrenched in my thoughts so deep that I can't be moved. Now when the Holy Spirit shows me something, I then can not be moved, of course. 

We (Church) Return with Christ in Rev. 19, while the Beast is STILL ON EARTH !! We (Church) are seen in Rev. 4 and 5 before the Seals are opened and in Revelation 7 just before the Trumpets are blown. We are with Christ for 7 years in Heaven. Those who repent after the Rapture will indeed suffer tribulation, but not the Raptured Church. Now you can disagree with me, that is OK, but I use the Scriptures, and show why the Scriptures used against the pre trib position don't mesh. Whatever opinion you desire is A OK with me, but I am going to point out the Scripture that show the pre-trib position brother, it's my job as a preacher to do so.

15 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Revman....you say you have been teaching for, what, 30 years or so. What does that prove. If what you teach does not line up with Scripture, then it is all in vain. Jesus warns us about teachers, that they will be judged harder than others, if their teaching is not correct. 

 

But it does line up with scriptures, the Pre trib is easy to see. You can't cite any scriptures about the pre trib, that I can't explain as per to why peoples belief therein is a miscalculation of said scriptures. Not one !! But Rev. 19 can't be explained by the post trib guys. Amongst many other passages. We see the Church in Rev. 4 and 5 also, and I have proven it many times. 

15 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

 JW's used the same line when they come calling. We've been teaching for many years. Well, it doesn't matter how long they've been teaching, if what they are teaching is wrong.

 

Well why would you cite the JW, I mean Satan has been deceiving for 200o years (and even before that of course), I decided to listen to Jesus almost 35 years ago. I prove everything I say with Scriptures brother.

15 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Show me anywhere in Scripture that specifically points to a Pre-Trib Rapture. A specific verse that says the Resurrection and Rapture happen pre-trib. And show the timing of it with a Scripture. You should be able to do this with a few verses. 

A preacher put this challenge out to pre-trib teachers before. And he offered $1,000 to anyone who could provide proof from Scripture. He's still waiting.

The Rapture is for the Church, thus it's basically not in the Old Testament, it can be vaguely seen in a few places. But we can understand what happens to Israel, and thus understand things as per what will happen to the Church. It is called Jacob's Troubles for a reason.

As per the New Testament, only Paul, the Disciple of the Gentiles was given the Rapture understanding, and Paul tells us about it in the New Testament chapters, 1 Corinthians 15 and in 1 Thessalonians 4 amongst other places. Jesus gives it unto us in parables because it was only intended for Paul to conceptualize it to the masses, not the other Disciples per se. So we do see it in the 10 Virgins parable where 5 are shut out of the wedding and in Matthew 24:36-51 where one is taken and another is left and where Jesus' return for the Church is imminent, but his Second Coming WILL NOT BE IMMINENT, it will be an orderly event, as in Vials 1-6 which leads to the 7th Vial, that is a countdown. All of the Scriptures have to be used to gain any understandings. Jesus tells it to us in Matthew 24:36-51 but the post tribbers say it means something else.

Then in 2 Thessalonians 2, we are specifically told that the Church must DEPART before the Man of Sin can come forth and BEFORE the Day of the Lord can come upon us. It has nothing to do with falling away from the Faith, the Subject is a Gathering together unto the Lord, BEFORE the Day of the Lord, which starts at the First Seal and runs to the 7th Vial. 

We see the Church in Heaven before the Seals are opened !! 

Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

The different views of who these 24 Elders are here below....................see the Blue.

1.) The 24 Elders are Angels...........................Well, we see humans called Elders but never have we seen Angels called elders. Also throughout the book of Revelation Elders and Angels are distinguished. Thirdly in Rev. 5:9 the Elders sing a Song of Redemption, so lets discount that viewpoint.

2.) The Elders are the Church AND Israel..........The problem with this is that Israel will not be Resurrected (Daniel 12:1-2) and rewarded until the Second Coming of Christ.

3.) The 24 Elders are the Church..........BINGO..........The reasons are many, I will list them below:

The Rewards promised to the Seven Churches are given unto the 24 Elders in Rev. 4:4.

* A Crown - ( Rev. 2:10, 3:11, 4:4 and 4:10 )

* A Throne - ( Rev. 3:21 and 4:4 )

* A White Robe - ( Rev. 3:4-5 and Rev. 4:4 )

In Pre-tribulationism: the Rapture occurs BEFORE the tribulation. 

So the above definition of pre-trib fits perfectly with the 24 Elders being the Church in Heaven doesn't it ? Before the Seals are opened !! 

This however wouldn't work in Post tribulation theory or with pre-wrath theory either !!

As per the 24 Elders meaning ? or why 24 Elders !!  Well this fits 1 Chronicles 24:7-19 where we are told there are 24 orders of priests.

1 Chronicles 24:7 Now the first lot came forth to Jehoiarib, the second to Jedaiah,..........18 The three and twentieth to Delaiah, the four and twentieth to Maaziah. 19 These were the orderings of them in their service to come into the house of the Lord, according to their manner, under Aaron their father, as the Lord God of Israel had commanded him.

Rev. 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

So as you see, the 24 Elders can be nothing but the Church in Heaven. They get the same EXACT REWARDS that the Church were promised and we are indeed kings and priests unto God the Father. 

So it's all there brother, I am not just guessing, I just don't take passages out of the contextual composition that they were given unto us in without TRYING THEM via all other verses/passages to see if they jibe. I am very good at Chess/Riddles, I guess that is why God called me unto Prophecy brother. 

God Bless

 

 

Edited by Revelation Man
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