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Why Pretrib Logic Fails


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On 2/29/2020 at 2:32 PM, A Christian 1985 said:

The Rapture, comprehensively explained

January 18, 2020

And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her hand a crown of twelve stars, and she was with child; and she crieth out, travailing in birth, and in pain to be delivered. (Rev. 12:1‑2)

      This sign is a type of all the believers, both Old Testament and New Testament believers, who are always spoken of corporately with respect to God in female types. The woman herself is the universal church: all born‑again believers of all New Testament time. This aspect of the rapture is a hidden one, as the coming of the Lord as a thief in the night is compared also to a woman in travail in (1 Thess. 5:2‑3) above‑ this is the woman in travail spoken of by the apostle in that verse. Also, the beginning of travail spoken of in (Mark 13:7‑8) refers to the start of the church age, not to the end times. What is this child that she is travailing in birth to deliver?

and he made us (to be) a kingdom, (to be) priests unto God and his Father; to him be the glory and the dominion for ever and ever. Amen. (Rev. 1:6)

        and he that overcometh, and he that keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give authority over the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of the potter are broken to shivers; as I also have received of my Father: (Rev. 2:26‑27)

        And she was delivered of a son, a man-child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne. (Rev. 12:5)

      The man‑child brought forth by this woman will be the resurrection of the overcoming believers throughout history, who are no longer physically alive. These are the stronger ones of God's people who led victorious spiritual lives while alive on the earth. Because they are the stronger part of God's people (the woman), they are referred to as a man‑child: they are a part of the woman yet they are also distinct from the rest of her. This woman, the universal church, has been pregnant since the church age began and has been travailing to give birth since then. The birth-rapture of the man‑child will occur shortly before the tribulation begins.

      From all this we may surely infer that, although Satan is a rebel, he has not yet been deprived either of his title or his power. He is till the great High One on high, who divides the world into different provinces according to its nationalities, appointing a powerful angel, assisted by countless subordinates, as viceroy over each kingdom to direct its energies and bend them to his will. 295

And I heard a great voice in heaven, saying, Now is the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom, become our God's and the authority is become his Christ's: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accuseth them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony; and they loved not their (soul) lives even unto death. (Rev. 12:10

      When the man‑child is caught up to God, there is no longer any use, excuse or room for Satan and his fallen angels in heaven; the faithful angels under Michael are ordered by the overcomers to cast them out of heaven. This will be the fulfillment of the coming of the kingdom in its hidden aspect. 

Sorry, but this is a simply misunderstanding of the intent of the Author in these verses from Rev. 12. 

IN CONTEXT, Rev. 12 is God introducing John to the Dragon (mentioned 32 times in this chapter) and in particular what the Dragon would be doing during the last half of the 70th week. However, in the first five verses, Jesus CHOSE to show John how the dragon tried to kill him  - using King Herod to kill all the young boys. The "woman" is ISRAEL (from where the Messiah came) and in particular, the virgin Mary who was giving birth. The sign in the sky was VIRGO. That exact sign with Virgo clothed in the sun and the moon at her feet was exactly how Virgo looked in 2 or 3 BC.  It was JESUS caught up, not the church. These five verses have nothing to do with either the rapture or the church.  There is no such thing as the "man-child" in any other reference than Jesus Christ Himself as a young boy. 

In other words, verses 12"1-5 are about Israel (where the Messiah was born of), then Mary who gave birth, then Jesus as the man-child whom Satan tried to kill. 

The TIMING of this chapter is only seconds after the exact midpoint of the week, marked by the 7th trumpet, which will sound in heaven when the man of sin enters the temple and declares He is the God of the Jews.  That abomination will divide the week into two equal halves of 1260 days each.  

Also at the 7th trumpet, the 6000 years of Adam's lease will expire, so suddenly Satan, the devil, will have NO MORE LEGAL HOLD to planet earth, so he and all the rulers of darkness in high places will be cast down. You might say they lose their wings. The Kingdoms of the earth are given back to their rightful owner, Jesus Christ. This is NOT the time of the rapture. The rapture will have occured around 3.5 years previous to chapter 12 and the midpoint of the week. 

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20 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

??? Explain this please. The Wrath of Satan is dependent on Satan being cast down to earth (Rev. 12:10), the wrath of God is first mentioned in revelation 14:10.

Wrong on one count here: the first mention of God's wrath on earth is the start of the DAY of His wrath: at the 6th seal in chapter 6. That is when God's wrath begins. if someone said it will begin with the first trumpet judgment, I would not argue. 

Since the 70th week is still future to the 6th seal, God's wrath begins pretrib and will continue on through the entire 70th week.  Meanwhile, at the MIDPOINT of the week, Satan is cast down, very angry. So as the days of great tribulation begin, Satan's wrath is seen in the beheaded beginning to show up in heaven (Rev. 15:1-2) but God's wrath is shown in the vials of His wrath poured out to SHORTEN those days of GT. Therefore, Satan's wrath and God's wrath are concurrent and simultaneous: occurring during the same time. 

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On 2/29/2020 at 2:32 PM, A Christian 1985 said:

      The 144,000 sealed of the children of Israel are faithful Jews who will pass through the Tribulation on the earth; they are sealed for protection from the supernatural afflictions of that time. These will repent shortly before the Lord's physical return (covered later in Subsection G.) and are probably a literal number.

      The 144,000 on the heavenly Mount Zion, however, is a symbolic number signifying the maturity and completion of these believers and is probably not a literal number‑ since such maturity is not predestined and depends on the exercise of free will. Enoch, who was translated alive to heaven by God because he was well pleasing to God, was an Old Testament type of the rapture of these first‑fruits. This symbolical number of redeemed are the living overcomers raptured as first‑fruits to God, and (like the man‑child) are raptured not to the clouds, as will be the majority of living believers at the general harvest in Revelation 14:14‑16, but to heaven. This occurs shortly after or simultaneously with the rapture of the man‑child and also precedes the Tribulation. 

Sorry, but this is the VERY SAME group: seen first in chapter 7 getting sealed, then seen in chapter 14 IN HEAVEN, caught up as the firstfruits of the Jews.  If someone asked WHEN they will be caught up, I would GUESS around the midpoint of the week. Perhaps they will be God's witnesses during the first half, but the TWO witnesses will be there for the last half of the week.

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On 2/29/2020 at 2:32 PM, A Christian 1985 said:

      As we have seen, the return of Christ will occur over a three and a half year period and will be of two aspects: firstly, in a hidden way as a thief in the night to steal away His most precious ones (the man‑child and the first‑fruits) and, secondly, at His actual visible return from the clouds. Thus are these and other apparently contradictory verses reconciled, being illustrations of the two differing aspects of the same process.

        And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matt 24:31)

        And the seven angels that had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. (Rev. 8:6)

        For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump (et) of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thess. 4:15‑17)

      The rapture of the large majority of the living believers left on the earth after the rapture of the first‑fruits will occur towards the end of the Tribulation, almost certainly in the last three months.

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump (et): for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Cor. 16:5 1‑52)

        And the seventh angel sounded; and there followed goat voices in heaven, and they said, the kingdom of the world is become the kingdom of our Lord, and of his Christ: and he shall reign forever and ever. (Rev. 11:15)

        And the kingdom and the dominion, and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High: his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. (Dan. 7:27)

      At the sounding of the last (the seventh) trumpet, all the remaining believers still on the earth will be raptured to the clouds, preceded by the dead in Christ who were not overcomers during their lifetimes and thus were not part of the man‑child. In this way all believers, living and dead, will stand before the judgment seat of Christ, to receive a reward (reign with Christ during the millennial kingdom) or suffer punishment (a further disciplining during the millennium), before the actual, physical return of Christ to the Earth after the sounding of the seventh trumpet.

I don't think this even comes close to the intent of the Author. It will probably only take a split second for Christ to get from heaven to the air above the earth, another split second or so for the entire rapture sequence, and another split second to escort the bride of Christ back to heaven. Jesus does not stay on earth; He will return to heaven and stay there for the entire 70th week (seal 7 to vial 7). In fact, He will remain in heaven after the week has finished for the marriage and supper which will take place in heaven. Only after the marriage will Jesus descend with the armies of heaven to Armageddon. This would then be His THIRD 93rd) coming. 

 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matt 24:31)  Sorry, but this is NOT Paul's rapture; it comes at the wrong time and gathers from the wrong place.

And the seven angels that had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. (Rev. 8:6) The rapture, according to Paul, will come JUST before Wrath, or the start of the DAY of His wrath: the 6th seal. The trumpets will not begin to sound until ater, after the 7th seal is opened so that the BOOK can be opened. The trumpets are written inside the book. No trumpet can be sounded until all seals are opened so that the book can be opened. 

At the sounding of the last (the seventh) trumpet, all the remaining believers still on the earth will be raptured to the clouds  Wrong again! The rapture is not at any of the 7 trumpets, and especially not at the 7th. Yes, the 7th is the last trumpet of THIS SERIES, but Paul's last trump is from a different series.  Go back and read Paul: his rapture comes just before wrath and as the trigger for Wrath, so it must come just before the 6th seal where the Day of His wrath begins. The 7th trumpet will sound in heaven marking the moment the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is the God of the Jews. 

Just to be clear, Jesus will come the 2nd time FOR His saints, just before the DAy of the Lord (wrath) begins, (at the 6th seal) and will then come again WITH His saints for Armageddon 7 plus years later.  The entire 70th week is ahead of us, future.

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On 2/29/2020 at 2:32 PM, A Christian 1985 said:

SUMMARY OF THE RAPTURE:

      Shortly before the Tribulation begins, the overcomers will be raptured to the throne of God in heaven. The dead overcomers (the man‑child) will be resurrected and raptured first, followed shortly by the living overcomers (the first‑fruits). The large majority of living believers will pass through most of the Tribulation and be raptured as the general harvest not to heaven but to the clouds. Toward the very end of the Tribulation and shortly before the literal physical return of the Lord to the Earth, the dead non‑overcomers, immediately followed by the living non‑overcomers still left on the earth, will be raptured to the clouds also. All of the believers will stand before the judgment seat of Christ, to receive a reward or suffer discipline. Those who need further disciplining to mature will be cast into outer darkness for the duration of the millennial kingdom. Those who receive a reward will return with the Lord to fight at Armageddon and reign with Him during the millennial kingdom, which will be a thousand‑year wedding feast. You cannot lose your salvation/regeneration. ALL born-again (believers) WILL be the New Jerusalem for eternity future.

How amazing when God has said that the saints would be OVERCOME. Why not just believe what is written? The man of sin turned into the Beast is going to be given power over the saints. I would say the vast majority of believers alive during the days of great tribulation will be beheaded.  After all, that is the intent of being overcome. 

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57 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Misses the point.

No, the point is, he was in error: "DAniel's people" is speaking physically: JEWS and the other descendants of Jacob. The 70th week is for the physical descendants of Jacob, NOT FOR THE CHURCH.  God has no desire to "shatter the power" of the church.

Edited by iamlamad
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2 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

No, the point is, he was in error: "DAniel's people" is speaking physically: JEWS and the other descendants of Jacob. The 70th week is for the physical descendants of Jacob, NOT FOR THE CHURCH. 

Only compounds the error. You're close, but no cigar.

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Just now, iamlamad said:

Wrong on one count here: the first mention of God's wrath on earth is the start of the DAY of His wrath: at the 6th seal in chapter 6. That is when God's wrath begins. if someone said it will begin with the first trumpet judgment, I would not argue. 

Since the 70th week is still future to the 6th seal, God's wrath begins pretrib and will continue on through the entire 70th week.  Meanwhile, at the MIDPOINT of the week, Satan is cast down, very angry. So as the days of great tribulation begin, Satan's wrath is seen in the beheaded beginning to show up in heaven (Rev. 15:1-2) but God's wrath is shown in the vials of His wrath poured out to SHORTEN those days of GT. Therefore, Satan's wrath and God's wrath are concurrent and simultaneous: occurring during the same time. 

And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. (Rev 11:18)

The Word "Come" here is present tense, not past tense as you imagine. this is the seventh trumpet. Please look this up. The Wrath of the Lamb is distinct from and diverse from the Wrath of God... Yes, Jesus is God, but there is a distinct reason for the difference in terms given to John. You should study this further. One speaks of the day of Christ the other speaks of the day of the LORD. Both happen after the wrath of Satan.

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1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

The church has always had tribulation, for one simple reason, Satan hates God and hates all humans. But tribulation is not God's wrath poured out on people who hate God and refuse to repent. However, that being said, Revelation shows us clearly that God's wrath is poured out throught the ENTIRE 70th week.  God's wrath and Satan's wrath cannot be separated in TIME because they happen together.

I agree with you that the Lords Wrath is not the tribulation. The tribulation in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, in which there are wars, pestilences and other calamities on earth is not the Lord's wrath. Everyone is on the earth through this tribulation (beginning of sorrows), before the faithful are caught up.

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16 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

I chose to let the scriptures define apo'stasia.

 
Isa 6:10-12 KJV    Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate, And the LORD have REMOVED men far away, and there be a great FORSAKING in the midst of the land.

Paraphrasing it says: 

(Induced) Blindness will continue until the apostasy (both physically and spiritually) takes place.  Which comes first,  

1.  Blindness ends,  or

2. Forsaking & removal?

If you answer #1, consider yourself a living testimony that the blindness persists. 

Rom 11:25 KJV For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

When and where does this great departure take place? 

Mat 24:15 KJV When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Mat 24:21 KJV For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

When you shall see, 

Then shall be.

Abomination,  in that nation. 

Then shall be,

redemption for me. 

Falling away,  departure too.

Then shall we,

Be with Jesus,  be with you,

Then shall we...

Be Blessed 

The Pup

Sorry, Pup, but the Bride of Christ is not going to see the Abomination.  The bride will be caught up and "departed" before the man of sin is revealed. They will be "taken out of the way." See? The word DOES define apostasia: "taken out of the way:" the power holding down or restraining "gone from the midst."

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