Why Pretrib Logic Fails

[luigi]

20 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

No! That is not at all what the bible teaches! Did you just overlook the words of Jesus in Mat. 24:6? He said "the end is not yet. In other words, He is talking church age, because the things like earthquakes, pestilences, famines, etc are church age events. They align with seals 2 through 4.  

If we look at the large group, too large to number, in Rev. 7: they came out of great tribulation. Here God is calling the entire church age "great tribulation."  John wrote this in chapter 7 before he (and the Holy Spirit) have event begun the 70th week, much less arrived at the second half (chapter 12) where the days of Great tribulation Jesus spoke of will begin. 

The church has no appointments set with any days of God's wrath - and His wrath will be felt for the entire 70th week.  Not my idea, it is what is written. 

I did not overlook the Word in Matthew 24:6 where the Lod states the end is not yet. As I stated to you in an earlier post, confirming what the Word states that these dire situations in which wars, famines, pestilences (such as the current Covid-19) and other calamities increasing, the Word describes as only the beginning of sorrows (Matthew 24:8), thereby indicating a lot more coming after the beginning of sorrows. Already in various nations throughout the world, they who believe and advocate in the true gospel of Christ, to love their neighbor, and to do justly, are being increasingly persecuted and killed, as prescribed will occur following the beginning of sorrows (Matthew 24:9).

Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

[Diaste]

43 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Your take is that practicing Jewry has some special regard of punishment reserved beyond that of others. There is no basis for this in scripture.

Diaste, I did not say it, Daniel said it: 

⁷ Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.

 

God Himself called them "the Holy People."  Are you going to believe what God said, or have your own theory?  Do you imagine the 70th week of Daniel was MY plan? It is GOD'S plan. It is also God's plan that every one of the judgments written in Revelation happen as written.  Don't try to second guess God and His plans for the Jews! You would write them off because they have rejected their own Messiah.  We should be thanking GOD they rejected Him, so that God would turn to the Gentiles. 

Yes. And who are the holy people? Since the term isn't defined here, are you adding your own definition? Noah wasn't a Jew. Abraham wasn't a Jew. Rahab the harlot wasn't a Jew. The list goes on and on. Not Jews. All justified by faith. 

43 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

 

Romans 11:25

For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

 

Are you being wise in your own opinion? Or do you truly believe this?  Don't ever say "there is no Jew or Greek." God HIMSELF has called mentioned both in this verse. 

 

 

There is so much more to this than what you posted. You would do well to read Romans a few more times because you are missing a great deal of truth. As I said before you don't understand the olive tree. But look here:

Galatians 3:28, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

I guess that just leaves believers and unbelievers.

 

43 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

 

Romans 11:25

For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

 

Are you being wise in your own opinion? Or do you truly believe this?  Don't ever say "there is no Jew or Greek." God HIMSELF has called mentioned both in this verse. 

 

Romans 1:16

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

 

Romans 2:9

Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

 

Romans 2:10

But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

 

Romans 3:29

Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

 

Don't fight against the word of God: He separates them in His word. The Jew and the Gentile become one ONLY in the realm of the Spirit when they are born again. But in the flesh, they are still Jew and Gentile. 

 

In context here Paul is teaching a truth. He is the God of everyone. This is not a teaching of segregation but one of unity in the Spirit. Again read ALL of Romans. It is incorrect in light of Galatians to think there is a segregation other than belief and unbelief. It's funny you left out Romans 11. Why?

You see from there that while there is a natural olive tree when grafting new branches they become a part of the tree. No difference. It is by faith and mercy only and not in any way by bloodline nor religion. It is all by God's hand and there is no special consideration given to the unbeliever no matter the race.

But have it your way. 

43 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

 

 Of the nonbelievers in Christ, there are Gentiles and there are Jews, and of the Jews, God made promises He will not forget. He is going to bring 1/3 of them through the fire of purification: as Daniel wrote, totally shatter their power (they trust in their IDF) until they have NO OTHER CHOICE but to call upon God. Not my idea, Daniel wrote it. 

Huh...well I guess we will see how that pans out. It's always a mystery to me why pretrib allows themselves to escape when they willingly cast others into torture and murder. 

So you, being pretrib, would count yourself holy before God, yes? You must be perfectly righteous since the tenet of your faith says you will be taken without warning to heaven to feast and frolic for 7 years should the end begin in our lifetime.

But you cannot be one of the holy people can you? They have their power destroyed. You do not, so you cannot be.

You say only the Jews are the holy people. What does that make you?

43 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

"For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who disobey the gospel of God?"

 

Wow! do you not realize you said it yourself in this verse: those that disobey the gospel will be WORSE punishment. 

 

Not the point. The point is, "For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God". This is Peter, who walked with God, who said this. Are you the in the family of God? If so judgement begins with you personally and your family group generally. That is a truth. Just for everyone else and not for pretrib, I guess. 

"For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us,"

Twice in one sentence Peter says judgment begins in the house of God. Twice.

You best get ready to NOT leave early.

 

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Yes. And who are the holy people? Since the term isn't defined here, are you adding your own definition? Noah wasn't a Jew. Abraham wasn't a Jew. Rahab the harlot wasn't a Jew. The list goes on and on. Not Jews. All justified by faith. 

There is so much more to this than what you posted. You would do well to read Romans a few more times because you are missing a great deal of truth. As I said before you don't understand the olive tree. But look here:

Galatians 3:28, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

I guess that just leaves believers and unbelievers.

 

In context here Paul is teaching a truth. He is the God of everyone. This is not a teaching of segregation but one of unity in the Spirit. Again read ALL of Romans. It is incorrect in light of Galatians to think there is a segregation other than belief and unbelief. It's funny you left out Romans 11. Why?

You see from there that while there is a natural olive tree when grafting new branches they become a part of the tree. No difference. It is by faith and mercy only and not in any way by bloodline nor religion. It is all by God's hand and there is no special consideration given to the unbeliever no matter the race.

But have it your way. 

Huh...well I guess we will see how that pans out. It's always a mystery to me why pretrib allows themselves to escape when they willingly cast others into torture and murder. 

So you, being pretrib, would count yourself holy before God, yes? You must be perfectly righteous since the tenet of your faith says you will be taken without warning to heaven to feast and frolic for 7 years should the end begin in our lifetime.

But you cannot be one of the holy people can you? They have their power destroyed. You do not, so you cannot be.

You say only the Jews are the holy people. What does that make you?

Not the point. The point is, "For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God". This is Peter, who walked with God, who said this. Are you the in the family of God? If so judgement begins with you personally and your family group generally. That is a truth. Just for everyone else and not for pretrib, I guess. 

"For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us,"

Twice in one sentence Peter says judgment begins in the house of God. Twice.

You best get ready to NOT leave early.

 

Galatians 3:28  Is speaking of the realm of the spirit, not the flesh. When God mentioned Jews and Gentiles He was speaking of the flesh, not the spirit.

I guess that just leaves believers and unbelievers.  Still wrong. Go back and read Ezekiel 37.  Then look on the map and find Israel. Look at  live videos of the wailing wall. You are seeing Ezekiel 37 fulfilled. As far as Christ, unbelievers; as far as God, strong believers. Give them TIME! The day will come when they will SEE Him and see the nail prints in His hands and THEN they will believe. 

I only posted verses that contained both Jew and Gentile or Jew and Greek, showing that GOD HIMSELF still sees both groups.  I understand the Gentiles are grafted into a Jewish tree: JESUS was a Jew!

why pretrib allows themselves to escape  Why do you blame this on pretribbers? It was LUKE writing by the Holy Spirit that wrote of God's plan of how to escape the wrath to come. Make no mistake, there IS wrath coming, but there is an escape. It is open to all. The sad part is, many have no knowledge of God's wrath Or His escape plan. 

So you, being pretrib, would count yourself holy before God, yes?  God is no respecter of persons. He will save a pretribber or a posttribber and give either or both His righteousness. 

Question: what if God requires FAITH to be caught up pretrib? In other words, will people who think they will see the Beast first have no faith for a pretrib rapture?  I am asked because I don't know the answer. What I do know is what Hebrews tells us: Jesus will come for those who are EXPECTING Him. Are post tribbers or prewrathers expecting Him TONIGHT? Just saying....

But you cannot be one of the holy people can you? They have their power destroyed.  The churches faith is in Christ, not in any military. The church already believes in Christ. They have no need to have any kind of power destroyed. God wants to save the unbelieving Jew. 

What does that make you?  A born again child of God and a part of the body of Christ on earth. 

Judgment does not come upon someone who already has the righteousness of Christ.  However, if I need pruning, I trust God as the pruner. In short, when judgment comes upon the church, it will fall upon those who have hidden, unrepented sins. Remember a radio and TV preacher that was a preaching machine? But his hidden sin was exposed. We all should repent of hidden sins!

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, luigi said:

I did not overlook the Word in Matthew 24:6 where the Lod states the end is not yet. As I stated to you in an earlier post, confirming what the Word states that these dire situations in which wars, famines, pestilences (such as the current Covid-19) and other calamities increasing, the Word describes as only the beginning of sorrows (Matthew 24:8), thereby indicating a lot more coming after the beginning of sorrows. Already in various nations throughout the world, they who believe and advocate in the true gospel of Christ, to love their neighbor, and to do justly, are being increasingly persecuted and killed, as prescribed will occur following the beginning of sorrows (Matthew 24:9).

Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Agreed. It will only get worse as we approach the end.