Why Pretrib Logic Fails

[ForHisGlory37]

On 1/31/2019 at 2:59 PM, JustPassingThru said:

With that in mind, ...if the Church is on the planet during the Tribulation, then, ...did God lie to Abraham and He will punish the righteous along with the wicked?

Hi Justpassingthru,  God will not punish the righteous, He will protect us supernaturally just like He did for the Israelites in Goshen.  Revelation 15 talks about the plagues being poured out and it will be effecting those who took the MOB and worshipped the anti-christ.  Revelation 16 is God's wrath being poured out but if you read

Revelation 16:15 Context

 

¹²And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. ¹³And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. ¹⁴For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. ¹⁵Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. ¹⁶And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. ¹⁷And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. ¹⁸And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

Did you see verse 15?  Behold, I come as a thief in the night!  That is also the same text in 1 Thessalonians

 

 

1 Thessalonians 5:2 Context

 

¹But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. ²For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. ³For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. ⁴But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. ⁵Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

We are here during the outpouring of the wrath of God upon the UNRIGHTEOUS.  He protects His  Saints, those that have not been killed.    (probably not very many because most will have been martyred for the sake of Jesus' Name)  this is also probably why we Christians will be so hated because while the unrighteous are suffering the plagues and wrath of God, we the Saints are untouched.

 

 

Edited February 5, 2019 by ForHisGlory37

[R. Hartono]

1 hour ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

I don't think folks are paying attention .   BUT IT IS the FP that actually causes the world to worshp the beast and take its mark .   Folks don't realize how far along we are .  DO THEY 

FP : Some people say that the Arab religion will rule the world in the end times as it has been prepared from its beginning to take over

  https://www.breakingisraelnews.com/106400/did-the-quran-come-to-replace-the-torah/

The Jews believe that Messiah and Elijah will be sent in the end times situation to rule the world from Jerusalem, obviously their wrong opinion  has been explained in Revelation 13, they are not the real Messiah and not the real Elijah. But the 2nd Beast may be the figure expected by the Arab world who will rule the world in the end times situation as it has been prepared from the start.

So the fake Messiah will come from Judaism/Christianity

The false prophet/fake Elijah will come from Arab religion and the fake Messiah will empower him to rule and make great wonders and execute the resistants by beheading (Arab typical style), and according to their prophecy he will rule the world for seven years.

God's covenant is made through Abraham-Ishac-Jacob while the 2nd beast of Revelation 13 may come from Ishmaelites.

Rev 13:11 .....and he spake as a dragon.

The world will tremble when he appears and speaks like a dragon.

[JustPassingThru]

1 hour ago, ForHisGlory37 said:

We are here during the outpouring of the wrath of God upon the UNRIGHTEOUS.  He protects His  Saints, those that have not been killed.    (probably not very many because most will have been martyred for the sake of Jesus' Name)  this is also probably why we Christians will be so hated because while the unrighteous are suffering the plagues and wrath of God, we the Saints are untouched.

Sorry, but I don't receive that,  ...the Holy Spirit teaches 1 Jn 2:27 there are Old Testament saints, church age saints and Tribulation saints, Old Testament saints are referred to as the Wife of Father, Church age saints as the Bride and later the wife of Christ and the Tribulations saints are before the Throne and will serve the Lamb day and night, ...something to consider, if I'm wrong I can change my mind, but if you're wrong you will be wrong for all Eternity. 

Lord bless

[Jostler]

5 hours ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

That's just it sister .  Folks don't realize how simple it is to see in revelations such pure truth .    It can be summed up real simple .

The beast ,  HIS WRATH comes against the SAINTS ,   BUT GODS wrath comes against WHO ,  the beast and those of his kingdom .

REAL simple .   

HALLELUJAH  

Quote

Amo 3:7

Surely the Lord GOD does NOTHING,
Unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets.

How much does God do in this earth before He finds a MAN who will come into agreement with Him and speak His  will into the earth?    (rhetorical question of course, I believe Amos just answered that)

Quote

Amo 3:8

A lion has roared!
Who will not fear?
The Lord GOD has spoken!
Who can but prophesy?

Is it ONLY the two witnesses left who have this honor of partnering with Him in His purposes in the earth?

 

Quote

Psa 149:4

For the LORD takes pleasure in His people;
He will beautify the humble with salvation.

 

Let the saints be joyful in glory;
Let them sing aloud on their beds.

 

Let the high praises of God be in their mouth,
And a two-edged sword in their hand,

 

To execute vengeance on the nations,
And punishments on the peoples;

 

To bind their kings with chains,
And their nobles with fetters of iron;

 

To execute on them the written judgment—
This honor have all His saints.

Praise the LORD!

 

[Jostler]

8 hours ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

in another place he tells the locusts go not after the green grass or green tree .   Just the MEN who have not the seal of GOD in their foreheads .

After you said that dear sister , all those other scrips are coming to mind .    PUT THOSE HANDS UP ONE AND ALL and HOLLER OUT A PRAISE TO THE LORD

I do not know how we could overemphasize this Word.  And there are so many other examples where the beast's attempts to attack are limited and thwarted by God.  The Great Tribulation is NOT a story  of a beast in full control!  it is a story of his great wrath and ATTEMPTS to establish a kingdom while being POUNDED by the wrath  of God from heaven.

Let me try on a bit of picture painting here. This is NOT Word but my own imagination of what things might  look like.  Lets say you're not God but it is your intent to convince all mankind you ARE God.

You'll probably  have to call a press conference   So you choose to place yourself in a temple building recognized for millenia as GOD's temple.  And proclaim yourself to BE God and declare that you are the ONLY thing that can be worshipped or deserves worship.

What happens next?   The cameras are rolling and this is your hour.  And two little old men stand up in the back of the crowd and yell "LIAR!  FALSE DECEIVER!"

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Rev 11:3

“And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

Oh my   Kinda embarrassing to have a couple little old guys stand up at your  finest hour and deny you   Sorta makes this claim to godhood fall flat if you can't handle a couple little old men.

So you nod to your security teams and they move out to silence these idiots.

Quote

Rev 11:5

And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner.

Before they can touch them fire proceeds from their mouths and destroys them.  So you  send another team, oops.  The pile of ashes just gets a little higher.

And for the next 3.5 YEARS this so called, self-proclaimed god can't manage to silence two little old men?

Does this sound like a triumphant, unresisted wave of evil dominating the earth completely?  It doesn't to me.

This "god" is resisted at EVERY turn, and limited in what  he can do.  Even this terrifying chimeric army  he manages (is allowed to) release from the pits  of hades is DENIED any ability to sting or harm the servants of the Most High.

 

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Rev 9:4

They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

They cannot touch any who bear the seal (mark) of God. 

We have nothing to fear.  Those who have already died will not fear the prospect of death at the hands of the beast.  I've rattled on long enough, but the one remaining revelation some need involves understanding WHY our loving God allows martyrdom and how  He will use it as the LAST blow to satan's kingdom is critical.  And He will reveal that to those He has called to such a call.  Martyrs are the "special forces" in His army and we may all be "conscripted"...."drafted" into His army at the new birth.  But His special forces are ALL VOLUNTEERS.  If you fear dying for the One who  died for you, you will not be REQUIRED to be one of these.  Those who volunteer will be used by Him in power to bring the age to a close.

Even so Lord Jesus, COME QUICKLY! 

Edit to add:  But ALL will die   Why not volunteer to die in such a way that your passage from this world and freedom from this current flesh happens in such a way that His eternal plans are advanced in your passing just as they should be in how you live your life?

Quote

Quote

Psa 110:3

Your people shall be volunteers
In the day of Your power;
In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning,
You have the dew of Your youth.

 

 

Edited February 5, 2019 by Jostler

[Steve Conley]

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

 

The topic here is "Why pretrib logic fails." On page 114 of the topic "Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture," I began addressing a list of pre-trib misunderstandings. I began with the false teaching of imminence. I will here deal with a few more pre-trib misunderstandings on the list.

 

How does one defend the indefensible?

 

You start by stating assumptions as fact. You use these assumptions to build a layered fortress through circular reasoning. This system of circular reasoning, in the minds of the errant, is used to twist even the most explicit of Biblical statements. That which is most plain and clear must mean something different than it obviously says or else the whole system, made up of what is thought to be orthodox truth, collapses. Some of these misunderstandings (I'm being charitable) which are thought to be orthodox are:

 

1) Imminence, Christ could come secretly at any moment to rapture His church.

2) The seventieth week is the period of God's wrath in the day of the Lord. 

3) God has to rapture the church before he can deal with the Jews.

4) God uses the Beast as an instrument of His wrath upon the tribulation saints.

5) God's wrath begins with the opening of the first seal.

6) The 144,000 are Jewish evangelists who bring about the greatest revival in history.

7) The great tribulation is for the Jews, the church will not be present.

 

And there are many more.

 

These tenants of pretribulationism are all interdependent upon each other. The whole system is built upon misunderstandings and assumed inferences predicated upon those misunderstandings. If one falls, they all fall. But as we have heard concerning some corporations or organizations, "they are too big to fail." So like those, pretribulationism is propped up by denominational leaders and those teachers who would lose face were they to correct their teaching. Many of these, upon being exposed, instead of repenting, double down and go to greater lengths in the wresting of the Scriptures. They are forever finding new, so-called, references to a pre-trib rapture that they can publish in books to satisfy the itching ears of those who love to have it so. The latest of these is "the apostasia = the rapture" false teaching being promoted by House, Woods, Ice, and others.

 

I will deal with each of these misunderstandings as I have time.

 

Exposing and correcting the misunderstanding: "The seventieth week is the period of God's wrath in the day of the Lord."

 

The seventieth week and the beginning of the great tribulation (thlipsis)

 

First, we establish the Biblical basis for the seventieth week and its relationship to the second coming of Christ. It is Christ Himself who ties the seventieth week to His coming (parousia).

 

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

 

Jesus here refers to a prophecy given by Daniel over 500 years before. Jesus is making it clear that this time period has already been prophesied about. Daniel mentions this abomination of desolation more than once. Let’s look at what he said.

 

Dan 12:11  And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

 

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. 

 

So that we may grasp the fullness of what we are told concerning this time it is necessary to briefly focus upon the last four verses of Daniel chapter 9. These four verses record one of the most astounding prophecies in all of Scripture. This prophecy has come to be called "Daniel's Seventy Weeks".

 

Dan 9:24  Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Dan 9:25  Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26  And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

The key to understanding this statement of the angel to Daniel the prophet, as Daniel recorded it, is to properly identify the meaning of the Hebrew word "shaw-boo'-ah" translated with the words "weeks" and "week" in this English translation. Shaw-boo'-ah means a seven or a heptad. The context determines what it is seven of; whether days, or years, or something else. The context here can be shown to refer to years. So, in this prophecy, the word week (shaw-boo'-ah) means seven years. Seventy weeks(sevens) would then be 490 years.

 

Verse 24 tells us that a period of 70 weeks (490 years) are decreed concerning Israel and Jerusalem and what will be accomplished in those 490 years

 

Verse 25 gives us the starting date, and timing of two events, the last of which appears to have happened on the 6th of April, 32 AD at the completion of the sixty-ninth week (483 years). This was the very day that Jesus rode into Jerusalem and presented himself as the promised King of the Jews only to be rejected and crucified a few days later.

 

Verse 26 tells us that Christ is slain for the sins of all mankind sometime after the 483 years were completed. It also tells us of the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple which took place in 70 AD. Both of these events take place in an untimed period between the completion of the 69th week and the beginning of the 70th week. That is the period of time that we are currently in today.

 

Verse 27 tells us what will happen in the last week (the last seven years). This week is said to begin when the prince that shall come, from verse 26, confirms the covenant with many. This is believed to be the Anti-Christ confirming the covenant with many, which includes the people of Israel. In the middle of this week of seven years (~3.5 years into the last seven years of this age) the Anti-Christ will defile the Temple. Paul provides more details concerning what he actually does to defile it (2Thes 2:3-4).

 

It is this defiling of a rebuilt Jewish temple in Jerusalem that Jesus refers to in Matthew 24:15. It takes place in the middle of the last seven years of this "aeon" or age. Prior to it was the birth pangs or beginning of sorrows that Jesus foretold (Matt 24:4-8). These birth pangs closely correspond to what John the Apostle records that he saw at the opening of the first 3 seals (Rev 6:1-6).

 

Mat 24:21  For then (when the abomination of desolation takes place vs 15) shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

So, we see that it is Jesus who associates the seventieth week with His return. Jesus presents the abomination of desolation as the notable sign which indicates the beginning of the unprecedented level of persecution of the elect that He called great tribulation (thlipsis). Daniel records when it takes place, in the midst of the week. Therefore, the great tribulation begins in the midst of the week.

 

Some believe that all seventy weeks have already been fulfilled.

 

It makes little difference in understanding the events which lead up to Christ’s return whether one understands Daniel's seventy weeks prophecy as I have presented it, the rest of Scripture still points to the fact that the unprecedented persecution of the elect (great tribulation) begins when the Antichrist (Beast, man of sin) defiles the temple and that he continues for only 42 months (Rev 13:5) after which he is defeated by the Lord and cast alive into a lake of fire.

 

To those who see the seventy weeks as past history, for the sake of being on the same page, when I say seventieth week, I am referring to the last seven years prior to the setting up of Christ's millennial kingdom here upon the earth. Let's get back to the question at hand.

 

Is the seven years prior to the setting up of the millennial kingdom the period of God's wrath in the day of the Lord?

 

If we work backward from the Beast being cast alive into a lake of fire as described in Revelation 19 we can identify the general time period when God's wrath begins to fall in the last days.

 

The Beast will overcome the Saints, have authority over all kindreds, tongues, and nations, and continue 42 months.

 

Rev 13:4  And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Rev 13:5  And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6  And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7  And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

The Dragon gives the Beast his power (authority) and it only lasts 42 months then he is cast into the lake of fire

 

Dan 7:21  I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22  Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Dan 7:25  And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

 

Those who are worshiping the Beast are told that they shall fall under the wrath of God

 

Rev 14:9  And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11  And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

These three verses show that God's wrath is the result of worshiping the Beast. The Beast and those who will worship him are recipients of God's wrath. The Beast is not an instrument of God's wrath. The Beast is an instrument of Satan's wrath. Satan, the Dragon, gives him his power. Satan does this when he and the angels who follow him are cast to the earth by Michael in the middle of the week (~3.5 years before the establishment of the millennial kingdom).

 

Rev 12:7  And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8  And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Rev 12:12  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13  And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Rev 12:17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

The saints (holy ones) are recipients of Satan's wrath not God's

 

Satan persecutes the saints through the Beast, False Prophet, and their followers. This he does in the 3.5 years prior to the setting up of the millennial kingdom. Jesus spoke of this persecution taking place after the beginning of sorrows. He said:

 

Mat 24:9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted (thlipsis), and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10  And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11  And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

 

Jesus warns that the real danger is not the physical death and suffering that His followers will go through but the falling away (apostasia) that Paul referenced (being offended and departing from the faith) which is the result of the intense persecution and the great deception. Those who follow the Beast will persecute the elect, but they will be tribulated (thlipsis) for their violence against us when Christ returns. We, the saints, will experience Satan's wrath, but the Beast worshiping earth dwellers will experience the wrath of the Almighty. Paul speaks of this very thing:

 

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

 

Paul says that the persecuted elect (the church) can rest from tribulation when Christ is revealed with His mighty angels.

 

Jesus essentially says the same thing. He says that:

 

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 

Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 

Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

The tribulation of those days, the great tribulation, is cut short (vs 22) as Jesus said it would be by the cosmic sign which announces His arrival at His coming (Parousia). John recorded his divinely inspired expectation of Christ’s coming and there is nothing secret about it just as Jesus said (Mat 24:27-28)

 

Rev 1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

 

He also recorded what he was shown when the sixth seal was opened. It is the cosmic sign which announces Christ’s arrival. Notice that the earth dwellers who will have been worshiping the Beast are hiding because they know that God’s wrath is about to fall upon them.

Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

John witnessed the cosmic sign which precedes Christ’s coming and the day of the Lord.

Jesus is arriving in the clouds with the holy angels and His wrath will fall upon the Beast worshiping earth-dwellers after He gathers His own unto Himself. The day of wrath has come, the vengeance that the martyred souls under the alter cried out for and were told that they must wait a little season for is about to happen.

Rev 6:9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

John records these events in precise order (Rev 6-8)

Fifth seal martyrs including those of the great tribulation crying for God’s wrath to fall in vengeance upon those Beast worshipers who persecuted them but are told not yet. At the opening of the sixth seal John sees the cosmic sign that signifies Christ’s arrival is at hand and witnesses the earth-dwellers hiding because they realize God’s wrath is about to fall upon them. The 144,000 Israelites are sealed. The resurrected and rapture church is seen before the throne of God in Heaven. The seventh seal is opened and John witnesses ½ hour of silence in Heaven followed by the blowing of the first trumpet bringing the first stroke of God’s wrath upon the earth-dwellers.

The wrath of God begins with the first trumpet after the seventh seal

What John sees with the opening of the first 5 seals is not the wrath of God. Seals 1-3 correspond to the events of the beginning of sorrows that Jesus spoke of. Seals 4 and 5 are associated with the unprecedented persecution of the great tribulation. The sixth seal announces that the day of the Lord has arrived, but the wrath doesn’t begin to fall until the seventh seal is opened and the first trumpet is blown.

The wrath falls on the day of the Lord

There is almost no contention with the truth that God’s wrath falls in the future period of time identified as the day of the Lord.

1Th 5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6  Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7  For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8  But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

It is God’s wrath in the day of the Lord that we are not appointed unto. Paul mentions that it takes place at Christ’s coming (Parousia).  

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Paul says that the day of Christ (the Lord) will not come until the man of sin (the Beast) is revealed in the Temple and the notable falling away, that results from his violent persecution of the saints and great deception, takes place.

A unique cosmic sign will take place prior to the commencement of the day of the Lord. The same cosmic sign that John witnessed at the opening of the sixth seal.

Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. 

The day of the Lord cannot come until after the cosmic sign that John witnessed, and Jesus spoke of (Matt 24:29). Therefore, the wrath of God doesn’t fall until after the great tribulation has been cut short by Christ’s return and our rescue.

Each of the pre-trib misunderstandings below has been addressed to some degree or another in this post.

- The seventieth week is the period of God's wrath in the day of the Lord. 

Wrong

- God uses the Beast as an instrument of His wrath upon the tribulation saints.

Wrong

- God's wrath begins with the opening of the first seal.

Wrong

- The great tribulation is for the Jews, the church will not be present.

Wrong

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 5, 2019 by Steve Conley

[JoeCanada]

Hi Steve,

Very well laid out. It would be hard to argue against this, but I know that pre-trib will argue it.

In the past, you stated that you were a per-trib teacher for some 30 years (I think that is what you said).

Was there a certain scripture that caused you to re-evaluate your pre-trib position, one that caused you to say "well, this can't be right because".............?

[Montana Marv]

10 hours ago, Cletus said:

how can this be true when the trumpets are not given to the angels untilthe seventh seal is opened...

Rev 8:2  And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

and its not until the last trump... 

1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Rev 11:15  And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16  And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17  Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18  And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:19  And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

 

The time of the Rapture is not in Scripture. It is not given any particular time. Why because Jesus Christ is the Word, He is Scripture, and Jesus does not know the time. Only God the Father knows the time.

Don't quote Scripture, it ain't there.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Last Daze]

11 hours ago, ForHisGlory37 said:

We are here during the outpouring of the wrath of God upon the UNRIGHTEOUS.  He protects His  Saints, those that have not been killed.    (probably not very many because most will have been martyred for the sake of Jesus' Name)  this is also probably why we Christians will be so hated because while the unrighteous are suffering the plagues and wrath of God, we the Saints are untouched.

We have the plagues in Egypt as an example of "targeted" judgment, so this is certainly within the realm of possibility.  Something else to keep in mind is that the 144,000 are mentioned just before the seven plagues of the seventh seal.  I expect that they will figure into the events at that time as well, possibly providing a place of refuge and ministry for the righteous.

[Montana Marv]

2 hours ago, Cletus said:

how is it you tell me the time of the rapture is not in scripture and not to quote scripture and yet when i quoted you you were saying when the rapture will happen?  how then do you know when rapture will be?  tell me how then do you have such divine knowledge? where have you acquired your knowledge, if not for scripture?   scripture is not sufficient for you or anyone to know when?... and as far as what i did quote it dont say a day or a time, but you dont need to work for nasa to see it does indeed line out pretrib aint happening and there will be some tribulation going on prior.   but now that scripture shows you this plain as day you want to claim its not in the bible and not to quote scripture?  ... i point to the title of this thread. 

Let's all have cum bia ah moment after the 6th seal and wait. Or after the 4th trumpet and wait, or after the 6th bowl and wait. For the Rapture.

In Christ

Montana Marv