Why Pretrib Logic Fails

[JoeCanada]

•       Why Pretrib Logic Fails Miserably on the Daniel’s Seventy-Weeks Prophecy          by Alan E. Kurschner

Here is the pretrib logic:

Pretribs reason that since the Seventy-Weeks prophecy in Daniel  9:24–27 was given to Israel,the Church cannot “exist” on earth during any of its fulfillment.

Here is why this common pretrib argument fails:

First, pretribs such as Crone would have to deny that the Church exists during the New Covenant fulfillment, since Jeremiah prophesied specifically to “the people of Israel and Judah.” (See Jeremiah 31:31–34). I am sure that Billy Crone would admit that he is a New Covenantbeliever.

Pretribs cannot have their cake and eat it too. This obvious logical inconsistency seems to escape their minds.

The New Covenant was not made with the Church, but the Church is governed under this covenant as the New Testament teaches that the New Covenant was extended to the Gentiles. We have to look to the New Testament for its progressive revelation to learn these matters.

Why can the New Covenant that was made to Israel be applied additionally to Gentiles, but the 70 weeks prophecy made to Israel cannot also include God working with the Church at the same time?

We are never told.

Billy Crone and other pretribs are myopic and do not allow the New Testament progressive revelation to give us more information about the particulars of the 70th week of Daniel.

Many more examples could be given from the Old Testament. Here is another one:

Peter in Acts 2:16-21 is citing from a prophecy from Joel that was given to Israel and applying it also to the new Church situation. You cannot have a more explicit OT prophecy made to Israel while also including an application of its fulfillment to the Church.

Second, pretrib logic on this issue simply does not follow. It makes a category error by confusing what with when.

They argue that since the Church did not exist during the first 69 sets of seven years (483 years), therefore the Church cannot be there for the last seven years. That is a non sequitur. It fails logically.

The fact that the Church did not exist at the time of the first part of this prophecy (69 sets of seven years, 483 years), who is to say that God is not going to work with both the Church and Israel during the last part of this prophecy? The Church does exist now. So logically it can be here for the last seven years.

When you allow for New Testament progressive revelation, you can learn more than what the Old Testament reveals. Imagine that!

And just to clarify these prophecies to Israel are not being replaced by the Church. The New Testament is simply telling us that God is expanding his redemptive program to the Gentiles, while he keeps his promises to Israel.

The Danielic passage is addressing Israel. Pretribs is trying to say more than it does by making it say that no other redemptive group can exist at that time.

Third, God has worked with both Israel and the Church at the same time in the past and he does in the present.

In the past:

Jesus made a prophecy to Israel about God’s judgment upon them (Matt 24:1–2; Luke 19:43–44).

When was this prophecy to Israel fulfilled? It happened in AD 70—during the Church age! Do you know where I am going with this?

Once again, why are we told that the prophecy to Israel about the 70 weeks excludes any fulfillment during the Church age, but a prophecy to Israel about its judgment is not?

When you have a theological system such as pretribulationism built on a web of assumptions, you will inevitably face internal inconsistencies.

In the present:

God also works with Israel and the Church at the same time, not just in the past, but the present:

“(19) But again I ask, didn’t Israel understand? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous by those who are not a nation; with a senseless nation I will provoke you to anger.” (20) And Isaiah is even bold enough to say, “I was found by those who did not seek me; I became well known to those who did not ask for me.” (Rom 10:19–20)

“I ask then, they did not stumble into an irrevocable fall, did they? Absolutely not! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make Israel jealous.” (Rom 11:11)

“For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: A partial hardening has happened to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.” (Rom 11:25)

These passages teach that God in this present Church age is working with Israel to make them “jealous.”

These reasons are sufficient to show that pretrib logic fails miserably when they claim that the Church “cannot be here” for the last part of Daniel’s prophecy.

[Marilyn C]

3 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

•    The fact that the Church did not exist at the time of the first part of this prophecy (69 sets of seven years, 483 years), who is to say that God is not going to work with both the Church and Israel during the last part of this prophecy? The Church does exist now. So logically it can be here for the last seven years.   
   

Hi JoeCanada,

God says the Body of Christ is Not here during the trib.

1. `Do you not know that the saints will judge the world (system)? ....Do you not know that we shall judge the (fallen) angels? ` (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3)

2.  `God....send (s) Jesus .....until the time of restoration of all things...` (Acts 3: 21)

When the Body of Christ is mature - brought to the unity of faith, by the Holy Spirit, and comes to maturity of the knowledge of the Son of God, then it will be taken to the third heaven where they will rule and reign with Christ. The Lord will move from His Father`s throne to His own throne and bring His Body there to judge the world system and fallen angels during the tribulation.

Marilyn.

 

[JoeCanada]

20 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi JoeCanada,

God says the Body of Christ is Not here during the trib.

1. `Do you not know that the saints will judge the world (system)? ....Do you not know that we shall judge the (fallen) angels? ` (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3)

2.  `God....send (s) Jesus .....until the time of restoration of all things...` (Acts 3: 21)

When the Body of Christ is mature - brought to the unity of faith, by the Holy Spirit, and comes to maturity of the knowledge of the Son of God, then it will be taken to the third heaven where they will rule and reign with Christ. The Lord will move from His Father`s throne to His own throne and bring His Body

Marilyn.

 

Hi Marilyn,

1. `Do you not know that the saints will judge the world (system)? ....Do you not know that we shall judge the (fallen) angels? ` (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3)

2.  `God....send (s) Jesus .....until the time of restoration of all things...` (Acts 3: 21)

These quotes above are very true.

But they don't tell us that the church won't be here during the tribulation. And can you reference any scriptures that tell us that the church will..... judge the world system and fallen angels during the tribulation.

 

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Marilyn,

1. `Do you not know that the saints will judge the world (system)? ....Do you not know that we shall judge the (fallen) angels? ` (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3)

2.  `God....send (s) Jesus .....until the time of restoration of all things...` (Acts 3: 21)

These quotes above are very true.

But they don't tell us that the church won't be here during the tribulation. And can you reference any scriptures that tell us that the church will..... judge the world system and fallen angels during the tribulation.

 

Hi JoeCanada,

Thank you for your polite response. Good to see. Yes the Lord Himself tells us -

` To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne, as I also overcame and sat down with my Father on His throne.` (Rev. 3: 21)

From the Lord`s throne he will be putting down all rule and authority and power, starting in the trib, & going through the millennium. The Body of Christ will be ruling and reigning with Him there.

Marilyn.

[Montana Marv]

5 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

•       Why Pretrib Logic Fails Miserably on the Daniel’s Seventy-Weeks Prophecy          by Alan E. Kurschner

Here is the pretrib logic:

Pretribs reason that since the Seventy-Weeks prophecy in Daniel  9:24–27 was given to Israel,the Church cannot “exist” on earth during any of its fulfillment.

Here is why this common pretrib argument fails:

First, pretribs such as Crone would have to deny that the Church exists during the New Covenant fulfillment, since Jeremiah prophesied specifically to “the people of Israel and Judah.” (See Jeremiah 31:31–34). I am sure that Billy Crone would admit that he is a New Covenantbeliever.

Israel is not part of the New Covenant until they believe. v. 33 - after that time, when, when God puts the law in their minds and writes it in their hearts.  I will be their God, and they will be my people. This is when they become part of the New Covenant.  Zech 12:10 They will look on me, the one they have pierced.

Pretribs cannot have their cake and eat it too. This obvious logical inconsistency seems to escape their minds.

The New Covenant was not made with the Church, but the Church is governed under this covenant as the New Testament teaches that the New Covenant was extended to the Gentiles. We have to look to the New Testament for its progressive revelation to learn these matters.

Again you fail to see that the New Covenant is in Christ Blood shed for us. 1 Cor 11:25.  Israel does not observe this ordnance, but the Church does.

Why can the New Covenant that was made to Israel be applied additionally to Gentiles, but the 70 weeks prophecy made to Israel cannot also include God working with the Church at the same time?

Because the 70 Weeks prophecy tells us when Israel believes.  At the end of the 70th Week.

We are never told.

Billy Crone and other pretribs are myopic and do not allow the New Testament progressive revelation to give us more information about the particulars of the 70th week of Daniel.

Many more examples could be given from the Old Testament. Here is another one:

Peter in Acts 2:16-21 is citing from a prophecy from Joel that was given to Israel and applying it also to the new Church situation. You cannot have a more explicit OT prophecy made to Israel while also including an application of its fulfillment to the Church.

We believe and it is accounted to us as righteousness, as in James 2:23; since the beginning of the Church age.  When Israel believes, it also will be accounted to them as righteousness. At the onset of the Mill.  After the final Week.

Second, pretrib logic on this issue simply does not follow. It makes a category error by confusing what with when.

They argue that since the Church did not exist during the first 69 sets of seven years (483 years), therefore the Church cannot be there for the last seven years. That is a non sequitur. It fails logically.

The fact that the Church did not exist at the time of the first part of this prophecy (69 sets of seven years, 483 years), who is to say that God is not going to work with both the Church and Israel during the last part of this prophecy? The Church does exist now. So logically it can be here for the last seven years.

Why do you try to logically say what you say.  Logically the Church can also be gone for the last 7 years.

When you allow for New Testament progressive revelation, you can learn more than what the Old Testament reveals. Imagine that!

And just to clarify these prophecies to Israel are not being replaced by the Church. The New Testament is simply telling us that God is expanding his redemptive program to the Gentiles, while he keeps his promises to Israel.

The Danielic passage is addressing Israel. Pretribs is trying to say more than it does by making it say that no other redemptive group can exist at that time.

So when is all Israel redeemed.  When do they become believers.  Onset of the Mill.

Third, God has worked with both Israel and the Church at the same time in the past and he does in the present.

What is the difference.  The Church Believes, Israel does not Believe.

In the past:

Jesus made a prophecy to Israel about God’s judgment upon them (Matt 24:1–2; Luke 19:43–44).

When was this prophecy to Israel fulfilled? It happened in AD 70—during the Church age! Do you know where I am going with this?

No, because Israel has yet to call God their God.  This is what the 70 Weeks prophecy is all about; When Israel and the holy city accept God as their God, this prophecy will then have been fulfilled.  They will say the Lord is our God, and the Lord will say they are my people.

Once again, why are we told that the prophecy to Israel about the 70 weeks excludes any fulfillment during the Church age, but a prophecy to Israel about its judgment is not?

When you have a theological system such as pretribulationism built on a web of assumptions, you will inevitably face internal inconsistencies.

In the present:

God also works with Israel and the Church at the same time, not just in the past, but the present:

Sure, and God also works with unjust nations to help fulfill prophecy.

“(19) But again I ask, didn’t Israel understand? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous by those who are not a nation; with a senseless nation I will provoke you to anger.” (20) And Isaiah is even bold enough to say, “I was found by those who did not seek me; I became well known to those who did not ask for me.” (Rom 10:19–20)

“I ask then, they did not stumble into an irrevocable fall, did they? Absolutely not! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make Israel jealous.” (Rom 11:11)

“For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: A partial hardening has happened to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.” (Rom 11:25)

These passages teach that God in this present Church age is working with Israel to make them “jealous.”

These reasons are sufficient to show that pretrib logic fails miserably when they claim that the Church “cannot be here” for the last part of Daniel’s prophecy.

Your logic fails because you do not understand prophecy.  Seventy Sevens are decreed for your people and your holy city TO:  Once the Church is gone, God will again put His focus on Israel and deal with them.  Temple sacrifices, ready to begin.  The Levites, ready to serve. The red heifer, ready to be sacrificed ???

My comments is red above.  AS one can see, your position has many flaws.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[JoeCanada]

46 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi JoeCanada,

Thank you for your polite response. Good to see. Yes the Lord Himself tells us -

` To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne, as I also overcame and sat down with my Father on His throne.` (Rev. 3: 21)

From the Lord`s throne he will be putting down all rule and authority and power, starting in the trib, & going through the millennium. The Body of Christ will be ruling and reigning with Him there.

Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,

"To him who overcomes".... What does this person "overcome". This letter is written to the church in Laodicea.

Jesus tells them to buy gold from him that is refined by fire. To those He loves, He reproves and disciplines. 

This sounds a lot like going thru tribulation.

"starting in the trib"....... I don't see anywhere in the verse you are using that shows explicitly that the church will start judging starting thru the trib. I do believe that we will judge the angels and the nations, but only AFTER the Lord returns, at the end of the 7oth week, after the vials have been poured out, after....not before.

So what is the purpose of the tribulation?

That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. (Ephesians 5:27)

As we consider the state of the Christian churches in the wealthy democracies we are appalled. Truly, the Church is a valley of dry bones. It is a house of death, as was true of Israel in the days of Jeremiah and Ezekiel. Every evil work abounds. Self-seeking is accepted as normal behavior. Instead of a humble waiting on the Lord there is smugness and spiritual pride.

 

[DonkeySpeaksAgain]

49 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

ANDMy comments is red above.  AS one can see, your position has many flaws.

In Christ

Montana Marv

2

You said (all in red)  "Once the Church is gone, God will again put His focus on Israel and deal with them.  Temple sacrifices, ready to begin.  The Levites, ready to serve. The red heifer, ready to be sacrificed ???"

"Again you fail to see that the New Covenant is in Christ Blood shed for us. 1 Cor 11:25.  Israel does not observe this ordnance, but the Church does."

"We believe and it is accounted to us as righteousness, as in James 2:23; since the beginning of the Church age.  When Israel believes, it also will be accounted to them as righteousness. At the onset of the Mill.  After the final Week."

I agree... a "believer" is what you have said! WHY WILL IT BE DIFFERENT FOR THE JEWS when they "start" believing? I say this because a believer will NOT need sacrifices or a new temple because we understand that Jesus is the temple AND that His death is the ONLY sacrifice God will accept. A new temple, continued sacrifices would be an abomination to God! Some may have the desire to do it and even have all the ordinances ready to go, but the Jewish people want no part of it. Faulty interpretations have led to the false teachings associated with the idea of Old Testament style temple worship and sacrifices during the Millennium. Even the idea of these things starting during the tribulation also cannot be substantiated and if they did they would also be an ABOMINATION to God. Then, we must ask, "why would Satan desire to put an end to something that God finds abominable"? If anything, Satan would try to keep it going just to "stick it to God and Jesus". 

[DonkeySpeaksAgain]

1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Marilyn,

"To him who overcomes".... What does this person "overcome". This letter is written to the church in Laodicea.

Jesus tells them to buy gold from him that is refined by fire. To those He loves, He reproves and disciplines. 

This sounds a lot like going thru tribulation.

"starting in the trib"....... I don't see anywhere in the verse you are using that shows explicitly that the church will start judging starting thru the trib. I do believe that we will judge the angels and the nations, but only AFTER the Lord returns, at the end of the 7oth week, after the vials have been poured out, after....not before.

So what is the purpose of the tribulation?

That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. (Ephesians 5:27)

As we consider the state of the Christian churches in the wealthy democracies we are appalled. Truly, the Church is a valley of dry bones. It is a house of death, as was true of Israel in the days of Jeremiah and Ezekiel. Every evil work abounds. Self-seeking is accepted as normal behavior. Instead of a humble waiting on the Lord there is smugness and spiritual pride.

 

The final church (Laodicea) is the church of the "final" tribulation - the 'left-behind' believers. Remember, nothing good is said about them, while the raptured church (Philadelphia) has nothing bad said about it. Being "refined by fire" is a reference to the 3.5 year tribulation after the rapture often also referred to as something akin to a burning oven. Likewise the phrase "weeping and gnashing of teeth" ALWAYS refers to the 3.5 year tribulation.

[Revelation Man]

6 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

•       Why Pretrib Logic Fails Miserably on the Daniel’s Seventy-Weeks Prophecy          by Alan E. Kurschner

Here is the pretrib logic:

Pretribs reason that since the Seventy-Weeks prophecy in Daniel  9:24–27 was given to Israel,the Church cannot “exist” on earth during any of its fulfillment.

Whoever this guy is, his logic fails right off the bat. Our reason why the Church is not on earth during the 70th week is "OUR MISSION" on earth is finished.  Jesus specifically states in Matt. 24:14 that when the Gospel has been preached unto all the world, then the end will come. And in Romans 11:25 we see that Israel will be blinded IN PART, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in, then they will see again, meaning God will call them unto him once again via Elijah and the Holy Spirit. 

The 70th Weeks is called Jacob's Troubles, I wonder why ? Ohhh, it has been designed to bring Israel unto repentance. The Church has already repented, thus they are worthy of Heaven by the blood of the Lamb, since "OUR MISSION" on earth is over, you tell me what the logic would be of the Church staying on earth !! God's Wrath will be brought to bear on wicked mankind starting in the Middle of the week, the first 3.5 years will be a FAKE PEACE, then the Anti-Christ reneges on his Agreements. Th Church is in Heaven marrying the Lamb at this time, just like Rev. 19 shows along Rev. 4, 5 and 7 .

1 Cor, 15 and 1 Thess. 4 also tells us of this coming Rapture to meet Jesus in the AIR.....The logic that the Church goes to meet Jesus in the AIR just to return straight back down to earth is so ILLOGICAL I wonder how anyone states that with a straight face, there would have to be a big sideways grin. Plus we are shown coming back from Heaven in Rev. chapter 19, so the only thing that is illogical would be any Rapture except the Pre-trib Rapture.

7 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Here is why this common pretrib argument fails:

First, pretribs such as Crone would have to deny that the Church exists during the New Covenant fulfillment, since Jeremiah prophesied specifically to “the people of Israel and Judah.” (See Jeremiah 31:31–34). I am sure that Billy Crone would admit that he is a New Covenantbeliever.

Pretribs cannot have their cake and eat it too. This obvious logical inconsistency seems to escape their minds.

The New Covenant was not made with the Church, but the Church is governed under this covenant as the New Testament teaches that the New Covenant was extended to the Gentiles. We have to look to the New Testament for its progressive revelation to learn these matters.

Why can the New Covenant that was made to Israel be applied additionally to Gentiles, but the 70 weeks prophecy made to Israel cannot also include God working with the Church at the same time?

We are never told.

Wow, just wow, this guy, whoever he is, is really short on logic. For starters he doesn't really understand that the New Covenant was the OLDEST COVENANT in reality, it was THE PROMISE to Abraham, FULFILLED !! The coming of the PROMISED MESSIAH. But God prophesied that all mankind would be called under this Blood Sacrifice Covenant, not just Israel. 

The Gentiles who do not repent will not be Raptured either !! Do you not understand that ? Jews who repent during the Church Age will be Resurrected if dead and Rapured if ALIVE, just like the Gentiles who repent, but there will be MORE Gentiles who have not repented then who repent during the Church Age. Even now, there are at most 2 Billion Christians out of 8 Billion people on earth. So there will be a huge portion (75 percent) of the Gentiles still on earth after the Rapture, and a huge portion of the Jews still on earth (maybe 85 to 90 percent) after the Rapture so I ask you, where is this DIFFERENCE that you are speaking about ? 

Gentiles will turn to God during the 70th Week also. They are the Martyrs under the 5th Seal. So both Jews and Gentiles repent during the Church Age and both Jews and Gentiles repent during the 70th Week so his whole thesis is just not logical on its face. He actually things he has a point here !! Wow.

P.S. I just told him...........I doubt if he saw it he would understand it.

No use going any further, I can see this mans logic is anything but logical.

[Wayne222]

Pretrib bad ! ha ha just joking.  But I cannot buy into it myself. I got to go with Walter Martin. He did a good study on it. That's a really good bible teacher.look him up on youtube.