Last Daze Posted February 5, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.13 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 5, 2019 55 minutes ago, Montana Marv said: Let's all have cum bia ah moment after the 6th seal and wait. Or after the 4th trumpet and wait, or after the 6th bowl and wait. For the Rapture. In Christ Montana Marv The truth of God will never succumb to the wishes of men, ever. Last trumpet on the last day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForHisGlory37 Posted February 5, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 38 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 641 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 722 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/02/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted February 5, 2019 15 hours ago, JustPassingThru said: Sorry, but I don't receive that, ...the Holy Spirit teaches 1 Jn 2:27 there are Old Testament saints, church age saints and Tribulation saints, Old Testament saints are referred to as the Wife of Father, Church age saints as the Bride and later the wife of Christ and the Tribulations saints are before the Throne and will serve the Lamb day and night, ...something to consider, if I'm wrong I can change my mind, but if you're wrong you will be wrong for all Eternity. Lord bless What does it say in Scripture? Ephesians 4:4 Context 1I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, 2With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. God doesn't differentiate believers, they are One Body, of One Spirit, One Lord, One faith, One Baptism, One God and Father. God does differentiate however, the sheep from the goats, the wheat from the tares and believers from the unbelievers. You don't have to "receive it" it won't mater if you do or not, but regardless, God's Word will stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frienduff thaylorde Posted February 6, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 17 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 13,256 Content Per Day: 5.35 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 62 Joined: 07/07/2017 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/25/1972 Share Posted February 6, 2019 8 hours ago, Cletus said: how is it you tell me the time of the rapture is not in scripture and not to quote scripture and yet when i quoted you you were saying when the rapture will happen? how then do you know when rapture will be? tell me how then do you have such divine knowledge? where have you acquired your knowledge, if not for scripture? scripture is not sufficient for you or anyone to know when?... and as far as what i did quote it dont say a day or a time, but you dont need to work for nasa to see it does indeed line out pretrib aint happening and there will be some tribulation going on prior. but now that scripture shows you this plain as day you want to claim its not in the bible and not to quote scripture? ... i point to the title of this thread. I see ya CAUGHT that one Cletus . I was reading his reponse to you ,and was thinking the same thing . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeCanada Posted February 6, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,248 Content Per Day: 0.55 Reputation: 671 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/26/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 6, 2019 On 2/1/2019 at 11:23 PM, Revelation Man said: ALL OF THAT...........Just to avoid speaking about the Fact that the 24 Elders are in Heaven in the THRONE ROOM before the Seals are opened ? Do you understand what that means ? Not talking about it isn't going to make the facts go away brother. We are in Heaven because we are RAPTURED THERE !! Pretty basic stuff brother. God Bless. Hi RM, Hi RM, Yes brother, I agree........ there are 24 thrones with 24 Elders in Heaven in the throne room before the seals are opened. But that's not what you stated. You said......"So the above definition of pre-trib fits perfectly with the 24 Elders being the Church in Heaven doesn't it ? Before the Seals are opened !! " I disagree with that. The 24 Elders are not representative of the Church. Why didn't John see them until Rev 7:9? Because they weren't there yet. Rev 4:4...." Around the throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads". He goes on to describe everything else that he saw. If the saints were there, clothed in white garments with golden crowns on their heads, why didn't he also describe them. This would have been a huge victory for the saints. The praises of them, a huge multitude which no man could count, would have been deafening. Yet, no mention of them whatsoever. None. Not till further along in Rev 7:9. Now you must admit that Rev 4 to at least 9 is chronological...right? "Do you understand what that means ? Not talking about it isn't going to make the facts go away brother. We are in Heaven because we are RAPTURED THERE !! Pretty basic stuff brother.".....(you said) I sure do understand. Yes, we are RAPTURED THERE.....in HEAVEN. Rev 7:9. The first time that John SEES the Raptured Saints. "And they cried out with a loud voice.....Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb" Yes, it is pretty basic stuff. But only if you read Rev as it is written. At least from Rev 4-9....as written. You can't go changing the order to make it fit an assumed position. Not logical bro. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted February 6, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,134 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted February 6, 2019 6 hours ago, Cletus said: Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. Rev 15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled. Do you understand the meaning of this? this is where the mercy seat is... are you familiar with OT temple rules about not entering? 1 kings 8, Is. 6, Ex. 40. Yes, the High Priest went in only one time a year to the Holy of Holies. The Shekinah Glory Lifted up, and Resided in Tent of Meetings so the Israelites could travel. It also resided in Solomon's Temple when completed. It then left at time of the Babylonian occupation. It hovered over the East Gate before departing. This same Shekinah Glory will enter the Temple from the East Gate after the 2nd Coming. So what are you trying to impart about the Rapture. Christ has been in Heaven since the Ascension interceding for us. So what is new. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted February 6, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,134 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted February 6, 2019 16 minutes ago, Cletus said: not so much about the rapture, but it has to do with it. more about the door being shut. where the mercy seat is... when it becomes unavailable. when. search the scriptures for this and you will have a big clue as to when we will be caught up in the clouds. Yet before this time there is an angel flying in midair proclaiming the eternal gospel (Rev 14:6) Where is the Bride at this point. And during the 6th Trumpet all the earth is worshiping demons and idols. (Rev 9:20) Where is the Bride at this point. The Bride keeps being pushed forward in the 70th Week or before and not toward the end of the week. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Conley Posted February 6, 2019 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 401 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 226 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/19/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted February 6, 2019 8 hours ago, JoeCanada said: Hi Steve, Very well laid out. It would be hard to argue against this, but I know that pre-trib will argue it. In the past, you stated that you were a per-trib teacher for some 30 years (I think that is what you said). Was there a certain scripture that caused you to re-evaluate your pre-trib position, one that caused you to say "well, this can't be right because".............? Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Yes Joe, there was a very explicit verse that forced me to understand that the day of the Lord could not begin at the beginning of the week or prior to what John sees when the sixth seal is opened. Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. There was no way around the fact that a unique cosmic sign would precede the day of the Lord, the period of God's eschatological wrath. The implications of that truth forced me to question all the pillars of pretribulationism. One after another they fell. But, I was stubborn, not easily moved from a position I held all my life. As long as there was even a single verse that seemed to indicate that there might be a pre-trib rapture, I held out hope. All the other supporting tenants of pretribulationism being exposed as wishful thinking at best, the last verse I had was Rev 3:10. Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. The verse clearly said that the faithful Philadelphian church would be kept from the hour of temptation. However, when I recognized who was the focus of the trial I realized that the hour of temptation was the period of God's wrath in the day of the Lord, not the great tribulation that is focused upon the elect. The hour of temptation was for the earth dwellers. Earth dwellers is the designation given those unbelievers who worship the Beast and persecute the elect. We see it all through the book of Revelation and even in the Gospels. After that verse was clearly understood to mean that the church will not be partakers of God's wrath and that it had nothing to do with the period of unprecedented persecution that we, the elect of God, will suffer, I had no more refuge for my pretribulational beliefs. At that point, I submitted to the correction that I had received of the Lord and began to teach the historic faith that was delivered to the Saints by our Lord, the apostles and prophets concerning the day of the Lord, the great tribulation, and the rapture of the church. I wrote a book detailing my journey to eschatological truth to give to those that I had taught wrong over the years. I led the church that I pastor to these same truths. They were readily embraced and our doctrinal statement was corrected. God was so gracious in removing the blinders that held me in error. Glory be to the Father and our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zemke Posted February 6, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,028 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 451 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/24/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted February 6, 2019 2 minutes ago, Steve Conley said: Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Yes Joe, there was a very explicit verse that forced me to understand that the day of the Lord could not begin at the beginning of the week or prior to what John sees when the sixth seal is opened. Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. There was no way around the fact that a unique cosmic sign would precede the day of the Lord, the period of God's eschatological wrath. The implications of that truth forced me to question all the pillars of pretribulationism. One after another they fell. But, I was stubborn, not easily moved from a position I held all my life. As long as there was even a single verse that seemed to indicate that there might be a pre-trib rapture, I held out hope. All the other supporting tenants of pretribulationism being exposed as wishful thinking at best, the last verse I had was Rev 3:10. Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. The verse clearly said that the faithful Philadelphian church would be kept from the hour of temptation. However, when I recognized who was the focus of the trial I realized that the hour of temptation was the period of God's wrath in the day of the Lord, not the great tribulation that is focused upon the elect. The hour of temptation was for the earth dwellers. Earth dwellers is the designation given those unbelievers who worship the Beast and persecute the elect. We see it all through the book of Revelation and even in the Gospels. After that verse was clearly understood to mean that the church will not be partakers of God's wrath and that it had nothing to do with the period of unprecedented persecution that we, the elect of God, will suffer, I had no more refuge for my pretribulational beliefs. At that point, I submitted to the correction that I had received of the Lord and began to teach the historic faith that was delivered to the Saints by our Lord, the apostles and prophets concerning the day of the Lord, the great tribulation, and the rapture of the church. I wrote a book detailing my journey to eschatological truth to give to those that I had taught wrong over the years. I led the church that I pastor to these same truths. They were readily embraced and our doctrinal statement was corrected. God was so gracious in removing the blinders that held me in error. Glory be to the Father and our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ That's a great story. So many times there is a division caused by a statement of faith on this issue. That's a blessing, thanks for sharing. I too had somewhat of the same experience but the ending for myself and a few others was unhealthy. A person really has to want the truth for their eyes to see. I'm not sure how many times I went back through references adding more each time and one pre-trib aspect or question I had would fall or be answered until I finally Just said, "It's not pre-trib." It was a profound experience for me because it just wasn't about the rapture. It was about having God lay on the table a question, Are you going to trust the words of man or trust the words of God? Our Hellenistic systematic theologies have done us a service but at the same time have kept us in a holding pattern to see anything further. So when we speak of the things we plainly see and make sense of, it's silly or simple or just plain dumb to many sitting atop a mountain of theological complexity. Not realizing the rolling hills of scriptural references running from beginning to end. But as Daniel said there will come a time when those that have understanding will teach the many. Maybe after the son of perdition is revealed there will be more ears to hear. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revelation Man Posted February 6, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 4,065 Content Per Day: 1.41 Reputation: 551 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/01/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted February 6, 2019 (edited) On 2/3/2019 at 5:35 PM, DonkeySpeaksAgain said: The first three chapters of Revelation are focused on Christians, and looking at history it is pretty easy to see how it reflects the "growth" of the Church as a whole. The first 5 letters go from the first century through to the present age. The 4th and 5th representing Catholicism and the "reformed" churches respectively. The 6th and 7th represent the raptured believers and those left behind. The First Chapter is about the things John has SEEN, the Glorified Christ. The 2nd-3rd chapter are about the 7 Churches of Asia Minor and this about the different types of Churches, these two chapters are about the things which are. On 2/3/2019 at 5:35 PM, DonkeySpeaksAgain said: Now, the words "come up hither" are falsely interpreted by most to refer to the rapture. Those fond of doing word studies should compare this to being "snatched" away which is something far different, but that would not be convenient for their purpose. The context is merely a new or distinct vision being shown to John. This technique of writing is necessary when talking about various groups of people that overlap each other and have so many things happening to each of them often at the same time. That is why it is so confusing. But, even with all that, there still is quite a bit of time sequence integrity maintained. For example, the 7th seal gets "interrupted" by Chapter 7 (the marking of the 144K before the final 3.5 year tribulation can begin). That means God is telling us the 6th seal is associated with the rapture/start of the tribulation and the 7th seal occurs at some point before the 2nd coming. John saw a vision. He was CALLED up by a Trump, and Jesus sounds a Trump to call us to heaven, except it's not really a trump, it's Jesus voice which sounds as a trump, so I will take the command of COME UP HERE as a snatching away by the Holy Spirit. Jesus SPOKE the world into existence, Jesus speaks victory over the Beast and his minions. Jesus will SPEAK the Rapture, Come up here !! BOOM. 1 Thess. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Rev. 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. A Shout matches a VOICE...........It is of the Lord in both instances...........the Dead arises first then those that are alive, they must hear "COME UP HERE". It seems to all match to me brother, the voice is as a Trumpet, which only means it REVERBERATES LOUDLY !! #4536 σάλπιγξ salpigx {sal'-pinx} perhaps from G4535 (through the idea of quavering or reverberation); TDNT - 7:71,997; n f —Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) 1) a trumpet —Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon) Perhaps from G4535 (through the idea of quavering or reverberation); a trumpet:—trump (-et). —Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament) The word used for Trumpet seems to mean the Lord's Voice will sound or REVERBERATE LOUDLY with a sort of sound only those "in Christ" can hear. It's not actually a Trumpet, it is AS A TRUMPET. Our Lord's voice will reverberate. He sealed the Fleeing Jews, but they started fleeing at the 1290, and on into the 1260 event, past the 1260 where the Beast comes to power, all the way to just before the 7th Seal, where God then seals/protects them in the Petra/Bozrah area. On 2/3/2019 at 5:35 PM, DonkeySpeaksAgain said: Yes, Chapter 4 has a throne being set up in heaven, 24 elders in white robes with crowns, 7 lamps (which are described as the "spirits of the churches" and all ready established in heaven back in Ch. 1), and 4 beasts (released with the first four seal openings) which are constantly praising Jesus (the one on the newly appointed throne). Oh yes, and notice how Jesus is ONLY given three honors at this time (glory, honor, and power). The Seven Spirits of God = the Holy Spirit not the Churches. The Church is in Heaven by this time. When the Church is spoken of in Rev. 1:4 it says the Seven Spirits are BEFORE THE THRONE !! These Four Beasts in Ch. 4 have nothing to do with any released Beasts. These are Arch Angels that protect the throne, we saw these in Ezekiel I think. On 2/3/2019 at 5:35 PM, DonkeySpeaksAgain said: Another question to ask is what is this "thing" that is sealed? Go back to the 70 weeks prophecy and notice how there is a "sealing" associated with it and that all those here at least can agree that there is a time period that is hidden from the Jewish people and preventing the 70 weeks prophecy from being completed... right? Revelation is the ONLY prophecy book given to the Church concerning the Church Age and it is hidden from understanding by the Jews, but recognized by all that the Jews will have their blindness removed before the 2nd coming. It is logical to then assume these "seals" are a prophecy that deals with the Church Age. It's a "WILL" or the title deed to earth. Wills back in the day always had 7 Seals on them. That which was Sealed up via Daniel was the understandings. These Seals are the Judgments on this Wicked World just before Jesus takes over. Edited February 7, 2019 by Revelation Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2thelight Posted February 6, 2019 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 2 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,139 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 796 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/20/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted February 6, 2019 Again,what I see is in separating Israel from the Church Let's go to Gen to see what I'm saying Genesis 22:17 "That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;" The "gate of his enemies" is the passage ways that the enemies go through to get to your lands, your homes and your peoples. God is telling us the He will give us the victory over all our enemies, for through God, it is us that controls our gates. When we look around the world there are many gates that our enemies must pass through to get to us, and Christian nations have controlled them all. The canals, the passage ways, the high grounds; and even in the case of Alaska, the passage way to our homeland from the far east and Russia, God has given to America that for such a small price. This is a promise to both the House of Israel [Christian Nations], and the House of Judah [Jews] that they would always posses the gates of their enemies. Who has the nation of Israel blessed ,for without the Christian nations that come to their(Nation of Israel)aide they would not be. Genesis 22:18 "And in you seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed My voice." Today it is the Christians that stand up for one another, and that what ever blessing of the earth come through. There has always been sin in the world, and as a child of God we must act like a child of God, and have enough of a back bone to speak out when those around us are getting out of line. This not only applies to us in a personal sense, but as the body of Christ, and also the officials that are over us. The blessings come with the responsibilities. As of right now most of the state of Israel CANNOT be God's people as they don't even believe in Christ Can anyone on this forum tell me how this can be so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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