Jump to content
IGNORED

Why Pretrib Logic Fails


JoeCanada

Recommended Posts


  • Group:  Non-Conformist Theology
  • Followers:  2
  • Topic Count:  48
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  2,139
  • Content Per Day:  0.69
  • Reputation:   796
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  10/20/2015
  • Status:  Offline

“There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise” (Gal.3:28–292).

At the heart of a currently popular end–times theology is the belief that God has two distinct people—one of whom must be raptured before God can continue His plan with the other. Rather than teaching that God has two categories of people, Scripture reveals only one chosen people who form one covenant community, beautifully symbolized by one cultivated olive tree.

First, far from communicating a distinction between Israel and the church, the Scriptures from beginning to end reveal that God has only ever had one chosen people purchased “from every tribe and tongue and language and nation” (Rev.5:9). As Paul explains, the “mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus” (Eph.3:6, emphasis added). Indeed, the precise terminology used to describe the children of Israel in the Old Testament is ascribed to the church in the New Testament. Peter calls them “a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God” (1Pet.2:9). Ultimately, they are the one chosen people of God, not by virtue of their genealogical relationship to Abraham, but by virtue of their genuine relationship to “the living Stone—rejected by men but chosen by God” (1Pet.2:4).

Furthermore, just as the Old and New Testaments reveal only one chosen people, so too, they reveal only one covenant community. While that one covenant community is physically rooted in the offspring of Abraham—whose number would be like that of “the stars” of heaven (Gen.15:5) or “the dust of the earth” (Gen.13:16)—it is spiritually grounded in one singular Seed. Paul makes this explicit in his letter to the Galatians: “The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say ‘and to seeds,’ meaning many people, but ‘and to your seed’ meaning one person, who is Christ” (Gal.3:16). As Paul goes on to explain: “If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise” (Gal.3:29). The faithful remnant of Old Testament Israel and New Testament Christianity are together the one genuine seed of Abraham and thus heirs according to the promise. This remnant is not chosen on the basis of religion or race but rather on the basis of relationship to the resurrected Redeemer.

Finally, the one chosen people, who form one covenant community, are beautifully symbolized in the book of Romans as one cultivated olive tree (see Rom.11:11–24). The tree symbolizes Israel; its branches symbolize those who believe; and its root symbolizes Jesus—the root and the offspring of David (Rev.22:16). Natural branches broken off represent Jews who reject Jesus. Wild branches grafted in represent Gentiles who receive Jesus. Thus says Paul, “Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children….In other words, it is not the natural children who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring” (Rom.9:6–8). Jesus is the one genuine seed of Abraham! And all clothed in Christ constitute one congruent chosen covenant community connected by the cross.3

— Hank Hanegraaff

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Non-Conformist Theology
  • Followers:  2
  • Topic Count:  48
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  2,139
  • Content Per Day:  0.69
  • Reputation:   796
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  10/20/2015
  • Status:  Offline

In order to get one,rapturist must separate the Church from Israel,and that simply can't be done,to think the Jew's will believe upon Christ when they see Him is straight foolishness,and is nowhere in God's Word!!!

All will know who He is at His return,however if you don't believe upon the Son before that time,they will be lost just like anybody else

One must have faith now

John 14:6 ESV / 

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

So can someone tell me how the Jew's get to the Father without Christ?

Edited by n2thelight
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  39
  • Topic Count:  101
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  7,673
  • Content Per Day:  1.32
  • Reputation:   7,358
  • Days Won:  67
  • Joined:  04/22/2008
  • Status:  Offline

42 minutes ago, n2thelight said:

to think the Jew's will believe upon Christ when they see Him is straight foolishness,and is nowhere in God's Word!!!

 

Zechariah 12:10  “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn."

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Non-Conformist Theology
  • Followers:  2
  • Topic Count:  48
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  2,139
  • Content Per Day:  0.69
  • Reputation:   796
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  10/20/2015
  • Status:  Offline

1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

 

Zechariah 12:10  “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn."

Zechariah 12:9 "And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem."

On that "Day of the Lord" Jesus Christ returns to earth and He will bind Satan, the Antichrist, all the things of the flesh and all of his fallen angels. All the peoples of every nation on earth will gather in Jerusalem to make war with our Lord Jesus Christ.

Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

This verse is directed to both houses [nations]; "the House of Judah" [the Jews], and "the House of Israel" [Christians]. The time of Zechariah's writing this was about 500 years prior to Jesus Christ's death on the cross. The Lord is telling us through Zechariah that He would be pierced, or thrust through with a spear, so His Spirit of Grace could be offered to both Houses, Israel and Judah.

God's word is perfect; and when Jesus was asked a question to trip Him up, His answer always started; "It is written...", and that is the same reason why we need to know His Word.

When all the people on the face of this earth see Christ at His return at the last trumpet, we are told in Revelation 1:7; "Behold, he cometh with clouds [the heavenly hosts]; and every eye shall see [and know] Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindred's of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen". This is Jesus Christ's second coming, and the event of Zechariah 12:10.

Upon the arrival of the Antichrist [Satan, the falling star], at the fifth trumpet [Revelation 9:1], it will be in the same manner, and a counterfeit of similar events [the white horses] as to what Christians expect from the arrival of the true Messiah [Christ]. If a Christian does not know this at the time of Satan's arrival, he will be deceived. In ignorance he will fall in love with Satan. In fact, Jesus said that he will be so convinced that he will drag his family and friends also to the Antichrist.

Then when the true Christ, Jesus Christ comes that Christian will see Him in far more splendor then when the Antichrist came, and he will be shamed for what he has done. All those Christians who have bowed to Satan will be rejected by Christ for playing the role of the harlot, and the "mourning and wailing" will be because you were deceived by the Antichrist and his Kenite children, into marrying the wrong Christ. We are living in the generation this verse of Zechariah is aimed at.

Zechariah 12:11 "In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon [Ha-dad-rim'-mon] in the valley of Megiddon."

Once again, as in this whole chapter, it is bringing us to the "Day of the Lord"; the last day of this earth age. Let's try to understand a few important things here. The "valley of Megiddon", is also called "Megiddo". The meaning of this word "Megiddo" in the Hebrew is "the gathering point". Megiddo is the area in the tiny nation of Israel where people from the entire earth shall gather for the final battle, which is referred to as the battle of "Armageddon" in the religious community.

The purpose of gathering at Megiddo is to go to war against our Lord and Savior, when He comes with the hosts of the heavens [you know, mom and pop who have died and gone to be with Him]. This gathering also took place because of the celebrations going on in the streets of Jerusalem because of the murdering of the two witnesses by Satan. Satan is ruling from Jerusalem, and this is also when and where he has just declared himself to be God which is "the abomination by the desolator".

This is also the final day that the Antichrist will have any powers over mankind, for his deceitfulness will be revealed on that day, and he will be removed. Ezekiel 38 and 39 discuss the details of that battle, along with the battle of Hammon-gog. The Millennium age will start on this day, the "Day of the Lord".

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  39
  • Topic Count:  101
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  7,673
  • Content Per Day:  1.32
  • Reputation:   7,358
  • Days Won:  67
  • Joined:  04/22/2008
  • Status:  Offline

37 minutes ago, n2thelight said:

Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

This verse is directed to both houses [nations]; "the House of Judah" [the Jews], and "the House of Israel" [Christians].

 

No, it is not.  It specifically says the house of David, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.  It says nothing about Judah or Israel.  It also directly contradicts your false assertions from the previous post that I quoted.

 

2 hours ago, n2thelight said:

to think the Jew's will believe upon Christ when they see Him is straight foolishness,and is nowhere in God's Word!!!

 

It is not foolishness, and it is in God's word, as I just showed you it is.

 

40 minutes ago, n2thelight said:

and the "mourning and wailing" will be because you were deceived by the Antichrist and his Kenite children, into marrying the wrong Christ.

 

Sorry, but you have the wrong guy, I won't be fooled by anyone.  Your angst against the Jewish people clouds your vision.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Non-Conformist Theology
  • Followers:  2
  • Topic Count:  48
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  2,139
  • Content Per Day:  0.69
  • Reputation:   796
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  10/20/2015
  • Status:  Offline

15 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

No, it is not.  It specifically says the house of David, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.  It says nothing about Judah or Israel.  It also directly contradicts your false assertions from the previous post that I quoted.

Let's go up a few verses

Zechariah 12:7 "The Lord also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah."

The house of Judah are the Jew's,the two houses will not be joined back until the return of Christ,the ten tribes are not Jew's

18 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

It is not foolishness, and it is in God's word, as I just showed you it is.

My point was everybody in the world alive when He returns will believe upon Him,why do you think every knee will bow?

20 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

Sorry, but you have the wrong guy, I won't be fooled by anyone.  Your angst against the Jewish people clouds your vision.

What did I say against the Jewish people that's not true?Most in that nation of Israel don't believe in Christ

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  39
  • Topic Count:  101
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  7,673
  • Content Per Day:  1.32
  • Reputation:   7,358
  • Days Won:  67
  • Joined:  04/22/2008
  • Status:  Offline

29 minutes ago, n2thelight said:

Let's go up a few verses

 

The verse in question is very specific as to which group it is addressing.

 

30 minutes ago, n2thelight said:

My point was everybody in the world alive when He returns will believe upon Him

 

They won't all believe on Him as in He is the Messiah, the group in question will, and it is spelled out in other places as well.  Also, the reason it specifies the inhabitants of Jerusalem specifically, is because at that time Jerusalem has been given over to the gentiles, and not everyone in the city will be a Jew.

 

37 minutes ago, n2thelight said:

The house of Judah are the Jew's,the two houses will not be joined back until the return of Christ,the ten tribes are not Jew's

 

Sorry, I do not subscribe to replacement theology.  We are grafted into the tree, they are still the natural branches.

 

39 minutes ago, n2thelight said:

What did I say against the Jewish people that's not true?

 

The replacement theology you continue to promote is not true.  God made promises in the Old Testament to the prophets that He would preserve a remnant always, His promises are not broken.

Romans 11 explains it quite nicely.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Non-Conformist Theology
  • Followers:  2
  • Topic Count:  48
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  2,139
  • Content Per Day:  0.69
  • Reputation:   796
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  10/20/2015
  • Status:  Offline

33 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

The replacement theology you continue to promote is not true.  God made promises in the Old Testament to the prophets that He would preserve a remnant always, His promises are not broken.

Romans 11 explains it quite nicely.

Genesis 35:11 "And God said unto him, "I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;"

Where are these NATIONS today?

As for replacement,don't like the term,as Israel has always been the Church

Are you suggesting all of Israel are Jew's?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Steward

  • Group:  Steward
  • Followers:  110
  • Topic Count:  10,461
  • Topics Per Day:  1.26
  • Content Count:  27,742
  • Content Per Day:  3.34
  • Reputation:   15,387
  • Days Won:  126
  • Joined:  06/30/2001
  • Status:  Online
  • Birthday:  09/21/1971

9 hours ago, n2thelight said:

All those Christians who have bowed to Satan will be rejected by Christ for playing the role of the harlot, and the "mourning and wailing" will be because you were deceived by the Antichrist and his Kenite children, into marrying the wrong Christ. We are living in the generation this verse of Zechariah is aimed at.

For this reason, I've changed n2thelight's status as it's quite an unorthodox doctrine.  It's the same teachings pressed forward by organizations such as Shepherd's Chapel and other Kenite teachings.

  • Thumbs Up 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  0
  • Topic Count:  5
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  269
  • Content Per Day:  0.14
  • Reputation:   33
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  01/15/2019
  • Status:  Offline

15 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The First Chapter is about the things John has SEEN, the Glorified Christ. The 2nd-3rd chapter are about the 7 Churches of Asia Minor and this about the different types of Churches, these two chapters are about the things which are. 

John saw a vision. He was CALLED up by a Trump, and Jesus sounds a Trump t call us to heaven, except it's not really a trump, it's Jesus voice which sounds as a trump, so I will take the command of COME UP HERE as a snatching away by the Holy Spirit. Jesus SPOKE the world into existence, Jesus speaks victory over the Beast and his minions. Jesus will SPEAK the Rapture, Come up here !! BOOM.

1 Thess. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Rev. 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

A Shout matches a VOICE...........It is of the Lord in both instances...........the Dead arises first then those that are alive, they must hear "COME UP HERE". It seems to all match to me brother, the voice is as a Trumpet, which only means it REVERBERATES LOUDLY !! 

#4536 σάλπιγξ salpigx {sal'-pinx} perhaps from G4535 (through the idea of quavering or reverberation); TDNT - 7:71,997; n f

—Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) a trumpet

—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)

Perhaps from G4535 (through the idea of quavering or reverberation); a trumpet:—trump (-et).

—Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament)

The word used for Trumpet seems to mean the Lord's Voice will sound or REVERBERATE LOUDLY with a sort of sound only those "in Christ" can hear. It's not actually a Trumpet, it is AS A TRUMPET. Our Lord's voice will reverberate.  

He sealed the Fleeing Jews, but that started fleeing at the 1290, and on into the 1260 event, past the 1260 where the Beast comes to power, all the way to the th Seal, where God then seals then in the Petra/Bozrah area.

The Seven Spirits of God = the Holy Spirit not the Churches. The Church is in Heaven by this time. When the Church is spoken of in Rev. 4:1 it says the Seven Spirits are BEFORE THE THRONE !! 

These Four Beasts in Ch. 4 have nothing to do with any released Beasts.  These are Arch Angels that protect the throne, we saw these in Ezekiel I think.

It's a "WILL" or the title deed to earth. Wills back in the day always had 7 Seals on them. That which was Sealed up via Daniel was the understandings. These Seals are the Judgments on the Wicked World just before Jesus takes over.

 

Rev. 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was "opened in heaven": and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Rev. 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth

Acts 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Acts 14:27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

Now, When was the door to heaven "CLOSED"? If it is opened at the rapture, and it was opened in the first century by Jesus, then when was it closed?

Matt 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. (AFTER THE RAPTURE)

Luke 11:7 And he from within shall answer and say, Trouble me not: the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give thee.  (tied into the next verse)

Luke 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 

The rapture SHUTS the door to heaven until the END of the tribulation.

In Rev. 11:19 the temple in heaven is "opened" at the 2nd coming.

 Rev. 15:5 the temple is "opened" to release the bowl judgments. In verse 8 it says no one could enter the temple until the bowl judgments are finished. That means NO rapture or first resurrection during that time period. This means these two events happen at the same time. The bowl judgments START at the 2nd coming. They are severe and so it makes sense that they will only last 45 days (the extra time added to the end of the 3.5 year tribulation as per Daniel 12). 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...