Why Pretrib Logic Fails

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

Hello, and welcome to the discussion.

The topic concerns the 70th week itself. You and others keep insisting on the 70th week beginning at or near the cross. What is the proof for that. After many weeks, I am still waiting for the proof. Maybe you can help? Or, are you also going to keep evading the question like the rest?

I have shown in an earlier post all my calculations and how they agree with everything the Bible says about Jesus' birth, baptism and the cross, and how everything coincides with history as well. No contradictions  in the 69th week ending at the baptism.

All discussions concerning interpretation of prophecy hinge on this key element. We all must make sure that we are NOT using assumptions and instead are using truth as a basis for our arguments. My assertion is that the 70th week was all ready partially fulfilled in the first century and therefore only 3.5 years remain for any future prophetic fulfillment before the 2nd coming. 

What is the basis for your assumption of the 70th week ending at the cross (or a few days before it)?

No, I am not one that says the 70th week or any part of that week was back at the cross. I maintain that the 70th week is still in our future. All of it! With the week divided by an abomination that will cause the daily sacrifices to cease.  They DID NOT cease when Jesus died. They kept right on for another 40 years or so.  But when the man of sin will enter the new temple in our future, he will cause an abomination: ONLY the high priest can enter, and then ONLY once a year. Once the man of sin enters, the temple will be desecrated, and the sacrifices stopped.  And that event divides the week. The 7th trumpet will sound in heaven to mark that time on earth. 

As you well know, NO ONE has EVER showed us historic events that fit the trumpet judgments - and for good reason: they are FUTURE events! Daniel's 70th week is marked by 7's: the 7th seal opens the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial closes it. 

The church has been waiting betweeen the 5th seal (martyrs of the church age) and the 6th seal - the seal that starts judgement. 

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi RM, 

Even when we get to Rev 5:11, there is still no mention of the "Church" in heaven. Remember, there were no chapter breaks. From Rev 4 on, John is describing "things" which he saw. And he didn't see the Church yet. But he did see the living creatures and the elders and myriads of myriads of angels. Still no church!

When does he see the 'Church" in heaven? Not until Rev 7:9. 

As far as the elders receiving their crowns, well, so what.

Stephanos: From an apparently primary “stepho” (to twine or wreathe); a chaplet (as a badge of royalty, a prize in the public games or a symbol of honor generally; but more conspicuous and elaborate than the simple fillet, G1238), literally or figuratively: – crown.

It is the context that determines the ultimate meaning of a word or phrase that represent a term. In the case of stephanos, there are 18 occurrences of this word in the New Testament. It is apparent that the use of the word is different according to the context. In Matt 27:29, Mark 15:17, and John 19:2 & John 19:5 it refers to the crown of thorns worn by our Savior. In Phil 4:1 Paul says that other believers are his stepahnos using it as a metaphor. Paul uses the same word again in the same way, and then adds that we receive it at Christ’s coming in 1 Thes 2:19. There are 3 occurrences where it is clear from the context that stephanos refers to the believer’s crown and those occur in 1 Tim 4:8, James 1:12, and 1 Pet 5:4. After that It appears in Revelation. The first to instances also seem to refer to the believer’s crown in Rev 2:10 & Rev 3:11. After that, the 24 elders are introduced as having stephanos in Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:10. In Rev 6:2 it is the antichrist that wears a stephanos. Later in Rev 9:7 the locusts have a stephanos. Then the woman in Rev 12:1, and finally by an a mighty angel in Rev 14:14. The use of word stephanos in and of itself does not equate identity with the the Church. In some cases it does refer to the believers crown, but that is determined based on context. The context of Rev 4 says that these stephanos are worn by the 24 elders. To make the 24 elders the Church by virtue of the stephanos is not justified any more than saying the antichrist is the Church because he is wearing a stephanos in Rev 6:2.

You stated........"in Rev. 7:9-16 we see that the Church came out of the Church Age Tribulation."

The distinction between "Church age" saints and "tribulation" saints is a distinction that is not made in scripture. It is a theological invention and construct that has NO biblical support. NONE!

You stated......."We know that "absence of proof is not the proof of absence" thus just because they are not mentioned specifically doesn't mean they are not there."

Really! This coming from a guy who says he knows more about the books of Revelation and Daniel. WOW!

Brother....give your head a shake.....

There IS a church age: we are IN IT. When it ends (at the pretrib rapture) it will be the Day of the Lord, and no longer "the church age" or age of grace.  There is a 70th week. the church age will be history when the 70th week begins.  You do remember the great crowd too large to number - in Rev. 7?  Stop and think: all those that love Christ in all generations since the day of Pentecost: it is going to be a HUGE, HUGE, HUGE bunch of people! In fact, a  crowd too large to number.  It will be many many times bigger than the group of 70th week martyrs: billions compared to millions.  John saw them around the throne in heaven very shortly after the pretrib rapture. The "trib" will begin with the 7th seal as shown in chapter 8.

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Provide me with one Scripture that reveals the time of the Rapture.  Not a description of the Rapture. If one can, they then would then be considered a liar, since it is only God the Father who knows this time for the Rapture (Matt 24:36).  And God the Father is not the written or spoken Word.  If one can grasp this, then maybe their views will change.  Don't look for the time of the Rapture in Jesus Christ the Word, It is not there.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Paul tells us that a moment after the dead in Christ rise, two groups of people get two different results: those in Christ get caught up, and so miss the sudden destruction wrath of God. But those living in darkness get left behind and cannot escape the sudden destruction. Paul makes it clear that this sudden destruction is the start of God's wrath. He tells us that God will not set any appointments for us with His wrath; no, we get caught up and those left behind are caught in His wrath. So WHERE in John's narrative of Revelation do we find the wrath of God beginning? It is at the 6th seal. And right after that, John saw a huge crowd, too large to number, in heaven. Does this tell us the day or the hour? No, but it certainly tells us where the rapture will come in relation to other events. It certainly tells us the rapture will come BEFORE the 70th week.

[iamlamad]

17 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

At it again are you, providing falsehoods to keep folks in the dark. I would identify you by the fitting name I gave you in the past, but you would cry to the moderator in an attempt to silence me. So, I will address you as the one with the name I cannot use.

You and the Apostle Peter interpret Joel's prophecy differently. Should folks follow the man with the name I cannot use, or should they listen to Peter's divine interpretation of Joel's use of the word "before" as recorded in Acts 2:20. I'll follow Peter.

It is true that the Hebrew word paw-neem' can mean before in the sense of "prior to" or before in the sense of "in the face of" (in front of). Context is the primary driver in the proper interpretation of any word. When there is a difference of opinion concerning which interpretation is correct, we recognize the subjectiveness of the statement. However, with Scripture we have additional assurances when it comes to the interpretation of a text. All Scripture is divinely given and any judgement of it can be counted upon to be true.

It just so happens that Joel's prophecy is quoted by Peter and recorded by Luke in Acts 2:20. There it is recorded in Koine Greek. One thing about those Greeks is that "they had a word for it." The Greek language is much more precise having different words to reflect the various nuances of whatever was being communicated. So, Peter's quotation of Joel's prophecy provides us with a divine interpretation of the word paw-neem'. Does it mean "in the face of" or does it mean "prior to"? What is the Greek word that Peter uses? 

Act 2:20  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before (prin) that great and notable day of the Lord come:

Peter uses the Greek word "prin" which only means prior to. He could have used "pro-ag'-o" which means before in place or time. He also could have used "pro" meaning in front of.

If the man whose name I can't say is correct Peter would have used "em'-pros-then" which most closely communicates "in the presence of." But he didn't. He, under the direction of the Holy Spirit, said "prin", a time-related word. Peter says "before" in the sense of time, not place.

And you think that you excel all others in eschatological understanding. You don't even do your homework. In your desperation to find standing for that bankrupt pre-tib system, you have become blind to the evidence provided by a simple investigation. When you want a lie long enough God is apt to let you have it. Take this correction as another opportunity God is affording you to embrace the truth. It is written, a wise man loveth reproof. Be wise.

All praise, honour, and glory be to the Lord Jesus Christ.

All that is very good, but it does nothing to disprove a pretrib rapture. OF COURSE the Sun turns dark, and the moon into blood before the Day of the Lord. But the truth is, the rapture comes before the Day of the Lord too. The DAY comes with His wrath, and the rapture will take those in Christ OUT before His wrath.  In other words, pretrib is TRUTH. It is other theories that are bankrupt and cannot be proven by scripture. 

I hope we can continue....

Edited February 7, 2019 by iamlamad

[Montana Marv]

56 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Paul tells us that a moment after the dead in Christ rise, two groups of people get two different results: those in Christ get caught up, and so miss the sudden destruction wrath of God. But those living in darkness get left behind and cannot escape the sudden destruction. Paul makes it clear that this sudden destruction is the start of God's wrath. He tells us that God will not set any appointments for us with His wrath; no, we get caught up and those left behind are caught in His wrath. So WHERE in John's narrative of Revelation do we find the wrath of God beginning? It is at the 6th seal. And right after that, John saw a huge crowd, too large to number, in heaven. Does this tell us the day or the hour? No, but it certainly tells us where the rapture will come in relation to other events. It certainly tells us the rapture will come BEFORE the 70th week.

Yes

And yet this is the only time which cannot be calculated, and thus Christ does not know, It will happen when it happens.  Boom Boom. Rapture, then 70th Week.  All else is then known as of when.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

[Steve Conley]

7 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Provide me with one Scripture that reveals the time of the Rapture.  Not a description of the Rapture. If one can, they then would then be considered a liar, since it is only God the Father who knows this time for the Rapture (Matt 24:36).  And God the Father is not the written or spoken Word.  If one can grasp this, then maybe their views will change.  Don't look for the time of the Rapture in Jesus Christ the Word, It is not there.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

MM, Jesus says that He is going to send His angels to gather His elect unto Himself after the tribulation is over. This gathering of the elect He says takes place after the sun, moon, and stars go dark and He arrives in the clouds of heaven for all the world to see.

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I agree that we are not told the day or hour, but we are told of the signs which will signify that it is at hand.

Luk 21:25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28  And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Jesus says that when we witness the cosmic sign and the associated earthquake we can expect His arrival at any moment. The signs will let us know our rescue is about to happen. If I'm still here I'll be looking up into the heavens for my Saviour.

Your idea, since Jesus is the Word, and He said that only the Father knows the day and hour, that the Scriptures have nothing to say about the time of our rapture, is way off track. Paul said explicitly that we, the elect, the church, are not in darkness that the day should overtake us as a thief.

1Th 5:4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

The day of our rapture is the day of Christ's arrival and the day His wrath begins to fall upon those who will have been persecuting us.

MM, this isn't rocket science, it just requires one to read and believe what the Scriptures say.

Glory be to the Lord Jesus Christ

[Montana Marv]

1 hour ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

MM, Jesus says that He is going to send His angels to gather His elect unto Himself after the tribulation is over. This gathering of the elect He says takes place after the sun, moon, and stars go dark and He arrives in the clouds of heaven for all the world to see.

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I agree that we are not told the day or hour, but we are told of the signs which will signify that it is at hand.

Luk 21:25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28  And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Jesus says that when we witness the cosmic sign and the associated earthquake we can expect His arrival at any moment. The signs will let us know our rescue is about to happen. If I'm still here I'll be looking up into the heavens for my Saviour.

Your idea, since Jesus is the Word, and He said that only the Father knows the day and hour, that the Scriptures have nothing to say about the time of our rapture, is way off track. Paul said explicitly that we, the elect, the church, are not in darkness that the day should overtake us as a thief.

1Th 5:4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

The day of our rapture is the day of Christ's arrival and the day His wrath begins to fall upon those who will have been persecuting us.

MM, this isn't rocket science, it just requires one to read and believe what the Scriptures say.

Glory be to the Lord Jesus Christ

It is not in Scripture.  That is where your Logic fails.  It is really odd that you know this time of the Rapture, but Jesus Christ does not.  And He is Scripture that you quote so often.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[DonkeySpeaksAgain]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

No, I am not one that says the 70th week or any part of that week was back at the cross. I maintain that the 70th week is still in our future. All of it! With the week divided by an abomination that will cause the daily sacrifices to cease.  They DID NOT cease when Jesus died. They kept right on for another 40 years or so.  But when the man of sin will enter the new temple in our future, he will cause an abomination: ONLY the high priest can enter, and then ONLY once a year. Once the man of sin enters, the temple will be desecrated, and the sacrifices stopped.  And that event divides the week. The 7th trumpet will sound in heaven to mark that time on earth. 

As you well know, NO ONE has EVER showed us historic events that fit the trumpet judgments - and for good reason: they are FUTURE events! Daniel's 70th week is marked by 7's: the 7th seal opens the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial closes it. 

The church has been waiting betweeen the 5th seal (martyrs of the church age) and the 6th seal - the seal that starts judgement. 

4

 If the 69th week ends at the baptism, that means the 70th week began at that time. The cross then can be considered part of the 70 weeks prophecy which specifically gives a "set amount of time" in which the Jewish people must accomplish 6 very specific things. A rebuilt temple would in itself be a very huge abomination all by itself, and why would Satan want to upset that?

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

A 70th week outside of the cross goes against the context and purpose for the "determined" timeframe of the prophecy. If the 69th week ends at the cross, then I can accept a still future 7 years of unfulfilled prophecy, but no one can prove that. Also, making the 70th week about the A/C instead of Jesus - would be a very serious error, if what I am saying is correct - (let the reader understand).

About the trumpets - yes they are future but what do they represent?  And what is the timing of each and the vials?

[DonkeySpeaksAgain]

1 hour ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

MM, Jesus says that He is going to send His angels to gather His elect unto Himself after the tribulation is over. This gathering of the elect He says takes place after the sun, moon, and stars go dark and He arrives in the clouds of heaven for all the world to see.

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I agree that we are not told the day or hour, but we are told of the signs which will signify that it is at hand.

Luk 21:25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28  And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Jesus says that when we witness the cosmic sign and the associated earthquake we can expect His arrival at any moment. The signs will let us know our rescue is about to happen. If I'm still here I'll be looking up into the heavens for my Saviour.

Your idea, since Jesus is the Word, and He said that only the Father knows the day and hour, that the Scriptures have nothing to say about the time of our rapture, is way off track. Paul said explicitly that we, the elect, the church, are not in darkness that the day should overtake us as a thief.

1Th 5:4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

The day of our rapture is the day of Christ's arrival and the day His wrath begins to fall upon those who will have been persecuting us.

MM, this isn't rocket science, it just requires one to read and believe what the Scriptures say.

Glory be to the Lord Jesus Christ

Hi Steve,

I was wondering about the word "elect" in relation to the Church. Have you looked at how "elect" is used throughout the Bible? And are you sure that it refers to Christians and NOT Jews? The passages you mentioned definitely refer to the resurrection at the 2nd coming (end of the tribulation), so this would be an important thing to examine.

[JoeCanada]

20 minutes ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

 If the 69th week ends at the baptism, that means the 70th week began at that time. The cross then can be considered part of the 70 weeks prophecy which specifically gives a "set amount of time" in which the Jewish people must accomplish 6 very specific things. A rebuilt temple would in itself be a very huge abomination all by itself, and why would Satan want to upset that?

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

A 70th week outside of the cross goes against the context and purpose for the "determined" timeframe of the prophecy. If the 69th week ends at the cross, then I can accept a still future 7 years of unfulfilled prophecy, but no one can prove that. Also, making the 70th week about the A/C instead of Jesus - would be a very serious error, if what I am saying is correct - (let the reader understand).

About the trumpets - yes they are future but what do they represent?  And what is the timing of each and the vials?

Hi Don,

The 7o week prophecy in Daniel has to be read as a whole prophecy.

"70 weeks are determined......there will be seven weeks and sixty two weeks......THEN AFTER the sixty two weeks......."

And then, here is the last week......

"And the people of the "prince who is to come"..................." And he will make a firm covenant with the many for ONE WEEK....."

The "HE" goes back to the prince, not all the way back to "Messiah the Prince".

Hope this helps