Why Pretrib Logic Fails

[DonkeySpeaksAgain]

40 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Don,

The 7o week prophecy in Daniel has to be read as a whole prophecy.

"70 weeks are determined......there will be seven weeks and sixty two weeks......THEN AFTER the sixty two weeks......."

And then, here is the last week......

"And the people of the "prince who is to come"..................." And he will make a firm covenant with the many for ONE WEEK....."

The "HE" goes back to the prince, not all the way back to "Messiah the Prince".

Hope this helps

 

2

Sorry, doesn't answer anything, (by the way, very juvenile with the name calling - just go ahead and call me destroyer = destroyer of lies!)

And where is the "he" in the text - oh yes, it was ADDED by the translators. Yes, it goes back to the Messiah, because that was when the covenant with God was "confirmed" - at the start of the 70th week (baptism of Jesus). 

And by the way, you are removing the 2nd coming of Jesus (prince to come) in this prophecy and replacing Him with the A/C. Not advisable. Jesus is the "spirit of prophecy" and as a Christian we expect Him to return a 2nd time - right?

There should be ample enough evidence for you to reproof all your initial assumptions concerning the 70th week. Or at least please enlighten me - When did the 69th week end?

[JoeCanada]

6 minutes ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

Sorry, doesn't answer anything, (by the way, very juvenile with the name calling - just go ahead and call me destroyer = destroyer of lies!)

And where is the "he" in the text - oh yes, it was ADDED by the translators. Yes, it goes back to the Messiah, because that was when the covenant with God was "confirmed" - at the start of the 70th week (baptism of Jesus). 

And by the way, you are removing the 2nd coming of Jesus (prince to come) in this prophecy and replacing Him with the A/C. Not advisable. Jesus is the "spirit of prophecy" and as a Christian we expect Him to return a 2nd time - right?

There should be ample enough evidence for you to reproof all your initial assumptions concerning the 70th week. Or at least please enlighten me - When did the 69th week end?

Hi Don,

(by the way, very juvenile with the name calling - just go ahead and call me destroyer = destroyer of lies!)

HUH????

You must have me confused with someone else. I do not and have not called anyone on this forum any names. 

Please retract that statement......unless you can show me where I called someone "names".....Thank you

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

MM, Jesus says that He is going to send His angels to gather His elect unto Himself after the tribulation is over. This gathering of the elect He says takes place after the sun, moon, and stars go dark and He arrives in the clouds of heaven for all the world to see.

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Which proves that Joel 2:31 happens during the Wrath of God. The Elect that are gathered are gathered from ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER, lets emphasize the last part of the passage brother.  

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Jesus says that when we witness the cosmic sign and the associated earthquake we can expect His arrival at any moment. The signs will let us know our rescue is about to happen. If I'm still here I'll be looking up into the heavens for my Saviour.

Not exactly, Jesus does say in Matthew 24 that "THAT GENERATION" which sees all these things come to pass shall not die off until they see Jesus return.

Matt. 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

So that Generation will be the ones who live during the Tribulation, Matthew 24 is to the Jews. 

 

[DonkeySpeaksAgain]

9 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Don,

(by the way, very juvenile with the name calling - just go ahead and call me destroyer = destroyer of lies!)

HUH????

You must have me confused with someone else. I do not and have not called anyone on this forum any names. 

Please retract that statement......unless you can show me where I called someone "names".....Thank you

On another string you wrote to me...

Hi Donkey,

(Were you the one who called me "destroyer"?) 

No brother, it wasn't me who called you that. I don't call anyone names. And if I address you as Donkey, (short form), I hope you don't think I'm being derogatory.

 

[Steve Conley]

8 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Which proves that Joel 2:31 happens during the Wrath of God. The Elect that are gathered are gathered from ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER, lets emphasize the last part of the passage brother.  

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Not exactly, Jesus does say in Matthew 24 that "THAT GENERATION" which sees all these things come to pass shall not die off until they see Jesus return.

Matt. 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

So that Generation will be the ones who live during the Tribulation, Matthew 24 is to the Jews. 

 

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

O ye whose name I cannot say, you are not doing your homework again. And you said nobody knows eschatology like you do. Ha! Ha! What no response to the correction you received on page 11?

Had you considered the parallel passage in Mark you would have seen that your explanation was deceptive? But maybe you knew that. Since you boast to be a master of prophecy I will not treat you as a novice, but as one attempting to hide the truth from others.         

Mar 13:24  But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25  And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27  And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Let's emphasize the last part of the passage shall we.  "from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven"

As long as there are a few of us on this board who know the truth we will continue to expose falsehood.

Glory be to the Lamb                                                                           

[Steve Conley]

11 hours ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

Hi Steve,

I was wondering about the word "elect" in relation to the Church. Have you looked at how "elect" is used throughout the Bible? And are you sure that it refers to Christians and NOT Jews? The passages you mentioned definitely refer to the resurrection at the 2nd coming (end of the tribulation), so this would be an important thing to examine.

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

DSA, I and others have Biblically answered this question about the elect many times on this forum. If any will simply set aside the artificial system of understanding the eschaton that they were given by men and let the Scriptures speak they will see that the elect in this context is consistent with the use of elect for the church throughout the NT.

I gave you this information in the topic 3 1/2 year trib/ not 7. I will present it again with some additional info.

DSA, it has long been the need and error of pre-tribbers to insist that the elect of the Olivet Discourse are Jews. From the days of JND they have taught this foolishness to displace the clear statements of Christ which contradict the idea of a secret rapture. They say that God doesn't work with the Jews and the Church at the same time.

That God doesn't work with Israel while the church is around is a proposition that is easily refuted. First, we know that the church (the believing Jews and believing Gentiles in one body [Christ], which was so well explained by Paul as recorded in Eph 2:11-3:12) began at the giving of the promise of the Father (the Holy Spirit to dwell in the believer) on Pentecost. Some have other ideas concerning when it began, however, none of them change the fact that at the beginning the church was made up of Jews. It wasn't until years later that Peter saw salvation come to Cornelius's household, being the first Gentile converts of record. (Some will protest that the Ethiopian eunuch is the first Gentile added to the body of Christ. It makes little difference concerning the point I'm making.)

 

Fact 1) The church started out with Jews exclusively. The church didn't begin with Gentiles it began with Jews.

 

God has never stopped dealing with the Jews. It is true, that as a nation they have rejected their Messiah and that they, in part, have been forensically blinded. But, God is still saving Jews. In fact, Paul tells us that God is provoking them to jealousy through the salvation of the Gentiles who believe upon Christ. So, God is active spiritually with a remnant of believing Jews. He has also been dealing with them in other ways. The destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD was a fulfilment of the judgement due them because they didn't recognize the arrival of their Messiah (Luke 19:42-44). God's hand is still active in working out the fulfilment of the promises made to the Fathers (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Rom 11:28)) which surely involves the restoration of the Jews to their land, even though they remain in unbelief. Nearly all pre-tribbers believe that God's hand was in the restoration of the nation of Israel in this last century. Daniel 12:1 makes it clear that Michael has been active in the preservation of the Israelite people all these centuries that they have been scattered to the four winds, and the same passage lets us know that at some future point he (Michael) will stand aside at which time there will be unprecedented persecution upon them.

 

Fact 2) God is still working with the Jews during this church age even though many of them, through unbelief, have been blinded.

 

Paul tells us explicitly that there will come a day when Israel will no longer be under this forensic blindness. That day is when the last Gentile is added to the Body of Christ (fullness of the Gentiles be come in, Rom 11:25-26). When these remaining Jews see the glorified Christ, when they look upon Him whom they had pierced, they shall believe and turn to Christ as a nation, and He will be their strong Saviour. However, Zechariah tells us that two-thirds of the inhabitants of Israel will be killed first and the remainder refined in the fire. But after this all Israel will be saved, all of them will eventually follow Christ. This time of unprecedented persecution which makes them ready to receive Jesus, Jeremiah called "Jacob's trouble." Dan 12:1 identifies it as an unprecedented time of persecution (trouble) upon God's people. Jesus called it great tribulation (thlipsis = persecution), that is unprecedented violent persecution upon the elect for Jesus' name's sake (Matt 24:9-24). Jesus makes it clear that this unparalleled persecution is upon those who follow Him, the elect (Matt 24:9, 22, 24).

 

The word elect is used many times in the New Testament and to whom it refers is determined by the context. Paul, in speaking to the believers in Rome (Jew and Gentile) says "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth."(Rom 8:33) Throughout the New Testament, the primary use of the word elect refers to believers in Christ. This includes both believing Jews and believing Gentiles who make up the Body of Christ, the church. In Romans 11:7 Paul distinguishes Israel, which believed not, from the elect which believed. "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded." Even though Israel is elect in the sense that God chose them from among all the other nations to be a people to bear His name, it is only those who believed among that nation who are truly the elect.

 

It is also true that God, having removed the unbelieving natural branches from the root (the fathers to whom the promises were made), graffed in among the believing branches of Israel branches from the wild olive tree. These branches from the wild olive tree are Gentiles who have responded to the gospel and have been placed into Christ by the Holy Spirit. The promises of the new covenant are through the root to the branches which are both Jew and Gentile believers. Today the elect are those who are in Christ.

 

Fact 3) The elect are believing Jews and believing Gentiles in the body of Christ.

 

The word elect is used 3 times in Matthew 24, each time it refers to believers in Jesus Christ. We see the nature of those who are violently persecuted in verse 9, where we read: "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake." It is for Christ's name sake that these are being persecuted. These persecuted saints are Christians. Careful attention to the spatial language and connecting adverbs used by Christ as recorded in Matthew 24 will make it clear that in verse 9 He begins to speak of the period of unprecedented persecution and continues to refer to aspects of it until verse 29.

 

In verse 15 Jesus gives further details concerning the persecution He began to speak of in verse 9. We know this by the use of "therefore" in verse 15. He says the unprecedented persecution begins when the rebuilt temple is defiled (abomination of desolation) in the middle of the week (Dan 9:27) by the revelation of the man of sin (the Beast) (2Thes 2:3-4). He says to the inhabitants of Judaea that when they see that happen, to flee. Most prophetic statements of the Scriptures are centered around Jerusalem in Judaea, so we would expect Christ's warnings to be centered there. However, Rev 13 makes it clear that this persecution will be world-wide.

 

Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19  And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

 

Jesus further describes the severity and scope of this persecution saying that it is unprecedented. It is here that the familiar name "great tribulation" is given this period of persecution of the saints. The Greek word translated tribulation is "thlipsis." It is the same word that is translated afflicted in verse 9. It means pressure, and, in this context, it refers to the crushing weight of violent persecution.

 

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

He says that it is so violent that it will threaten to extinguish every believer form off the earth. To save some of the elect (believers) alive upon the earth, He says, those days are cut short. We should note that this is the first use of the word elect in the account. We see that it is the elect who are being killed in the unparalleled persecution. Remember, from verse 9, those that are being persecuted unto death are persecuted for the name of Christ. These elect, are not unbelieving Israel, they are us, the saints of God, the church.

 

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

 

Again, Jesus warns of false Christs, and the lying wonders that they will use to deceive those who profess Christ. He says the deception will be so great that if it were possible even the true believer (the very elect) would be deceived. This is the second use of elect in the text. Here Jesus implies that the true elect cannot be deceived by the signs and wonders done by the false prophet. However, unbelieving Israel is still in blindness because the fullness of the Gentiles is not yet come in. Rev 7:9-17 describes an innumerable multitude of primarily Gentiles that came out of great tribulation. These are said to be saved just as we are, in the blood of the Lamb. If God is still calling out a people for His name from among the Gentiles during the great tribulation than Israel still remains forensically blinded (Rom 11:25). Therefore, the elect, who cannot be deceived, must be the Church.

 

Mat 24:23  Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

 

The age-old adage is, “to be forewarned is to be forearmed”. With these warnings Christ has armed us against deception, specifically that deception related to His arrival at His parousia. He says that His coming (parousia) will be unmistakable, as unmistakable as the smell of the dead to carrion eating birds.

 

Mat 24:25  Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26  Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28  For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

 

Jesus then tells us what event signals that the unprecedented persecution is over. It is an identifiable cosmic sign, the very sign that Joel and other prophets said would precede the day of the Lord. Following the cosmic sign, the whole world will see the wonder of Christ in the atmospheric heaven as He comes with His holy angels. The earth dwellers will mourn in fear, having been caught unawares, like a thief in the night catches the unsuspecting home dweller. He will then send His angels to gather His elect, the persecuted, to Him in the clouds.

 

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

Notice that there was not a single mention by Christ of God's wrath in these verses. However, there is much detail concerning the unprecedented persecution of the elect called great tribulation.

 

Fact 4) The elect of Matthew 24 are Christians.

 

The elect who are being afflicted (thlipsis) and killed are experiencing such because of their identification with Jesus Christ.

 

Mat 24:9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

 

Fact 5) The great tribulation is not the wrath of God, it is the wrath of Satan, through the Beast upon the elect.

 

When Satan is cast out of Heaven in the midst of the week he focuses his greatest expression of wrath upon the elect and Israel

 

Rev 12:12  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Rev 12:13  And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

 

Rev 12:17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

The wrath of God will not fall upon the earth-dwellers until after the period of unprecedented persecution of the elect is cut short by Christ's return to rescue (resurrect and rapture) His elect. The rescue is signaled by the cosmic sign of Joel 2:31 as Jesus said in Matt 24:29 and as John witnessed when the sixth seal is opened.

 

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

 

Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

 

Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

 

Every elect Jew today is a part of the Body of Christ, as is every Gentile believer. The church is the elect, the church is the chosen. The church is made up of all true believers in Jesus Christ. The elect are all of the true believers.

In the New Testament:

There are elect angels

(1Ti 5:21)  I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

Jesus is said to be elect or chosen

(Luk 23:35)  And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.

(1Pe 2:4)  To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,

(1Pe 2:6)  Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

John wrote to the elect lady and spoke of an elect sister

(2Jn 1:1)  The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;

(2Jn 1:13)  The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.

The apostles were chosen

(Joh 15:16)  Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

The church is the elect in the following passages

(These elect in Matt 24 and Mark 13 must be the church because Jesus implies that it is not possible for the very elect to be deceived (Matt 24:24) and Israel remains blind (deceivable) in part until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in and there are still Gentiles (Rev 7:9) being added to Christ in the great tribulation.)

(Mat 24:22)  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

(Mat 24:24)  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

(Mat 24:31)  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

(Mar 13:20)  And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

(Mar 13:22)  For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

(Mar 13:27)  And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

(Luk 18:7)  And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

(Rom 8:33)  Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

(Rom 11:5)  Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. (These are Jewish believers who are part of the church)

(Rom 11:7)  What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

(Col 3:12)  Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

(1Th 1:4)  Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

(2Ti 2:10)  Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

(Tit 1:1)  Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

(1Pe 1:2)  Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

(Mat 20:16)  So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

(Mat 22:14)  For many are called, but few are chosen.

(Rom 16:13)  Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.

(1Pe 2:9)  But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

(2Pe 1:10)  Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

The chosen here would also include restored Israel

(Rev 17:14)  These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Glory be to Jesus Christ

[Steve Conley]

11 hours ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

The passages you mentioned definitely refer to the resurrection at the 2nd coming (end of the tribulation), so this would be an important thing to examine. 

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

DSA, there is only one future coming (parousia) of Christ, not two separated by seven years. That is an artificial construct given you by those who promote the secret rapture. JND began this foolishness of teaching two future comings. That is not what the Scriptures teach nor is it the historic belief of the true church.

As an exercise, look at the use of the Greek word "parousia" (coming, meaning arrival and continuing presence) and notice that it is used in the context of the rapture and the return of Christ with all His angels in glory. Also, notice that it means something different than "erchomai" (coming, an approach).

Also, notice that you find the day of the Lord in context with the rapture, in fact the revelation of Christ in all his glory begins the day of the Lord. The first act of the day of the Lord is to resurrect/change and remove (rapture) His elect from the earth so that He can begin to pour out His wrath upon the earth dwellers with the first trumpet judgement.

All praise, honour and glory be unto Jesus Christ

[DonkeySpeaksAgain]

4 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

DSA, I and others have Biblically answered this question about the elect many times on this forum. If any will simply set aside the artificial system of understanding the eschaton that they were given by men and let the Scriptures speak they will see that the elect in this context is consistent with the use of elect for the church throughout the NT.

I gave you this information in the topic 3 1/2 year trib/ not 7. I will present it again with some additional info.

DSA, it has long been the need and error of pre-tribbers to insist that the elect of the Olivet Discourse are Jews. From the days of JND they have taught this foolishness to displace the clear statements of Christ which contradict the idea of a secret rapture. They say that God doesn't work with the Jews and the Church at the same time.

That God doesn't work with Israel while the church is around is a proposition that is easily refuted. First, we know that the church (the believing Jews and believing Gentiles in one body [Christ], which was so well explained by Paul as recorded in Eph 2:11-3:12) began at the giving of the promise of the Father (the Holy Spirit to dwell in the believer) on Pentecost. Some have other ideas concerning when it began, however, none of them change the fact that at the beginning the church was made up of Jews. It wasn't until years later that Peter saw salvation come to Cornelius's household, being the first Gentile converts of record. (Some will protest that the Ethiopian eunuch is the first Gentile added to the body of Christ. It makes little difference concerning the point I'm making.)

 

Fact 1) The church started out with Jews exclusively. The church didn't begin with Gentiles it began with Jews.

 

God has never stopped dealing with the Jews. It is true, that as a nation they have rejected their Messiah and that they, in part, have been forensically blinded. But, God is still saving Jews. In fact, Paul tells us that God is provoking them to jealousy through the salvation of the Gentiles who believe upon Christ. So, God is active spiritually with a remnant of believing Jews. He has also been dealing with them in other ways. The destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD was a fulfilment of the judgement due them because they didn't recognize the arrival of their Messiah (Luke 19:42-44). God's hand is still active in working out the fulfilment of the promises made to the Fathers (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Rom 11:28)) which surely involves the restoration of the Jews to their land, even though they remain in unbelief. Nearly all pre-tribbers believe that God's hand was in the restoration of the nation of Israel in this last century. Daniel 12:1 makes it clear that Michael has been active in the preservation of the Israelite people all these centuries that they have been scattered to the four winds, and the same passage lets us know that at some future point he (Michael) will stand aside at which time there will be unprecedented persecution upon them.

 

Fact 2) God is still working with the Jews during this church age even though many of them, through unbelief, have been blinded.

 

Paul tells us explicitly that there will come a day when Israel will no longer be under this forensic blindness. That day is when the last Gentile is added to the Body of Christ (fullness of the Gentiles be come in, Rom 11:25-26). When these remaining Jews see the glorified Christ, when they look upon Him whom they had pierced, they shall believe and turn to Christ as a nation, and He will be their strong Saviour. However, Zechariah tells us that two-thirds of the inhabitants of Israel will be killed first and the remainder refined in the fire. But after this all Israel will be saved, all of them will eventually follow Christ. This time of unprecedented persecution which makes them ready to receive Jesus, Jeremiah called "Jacob's trouble." Dan 12:1 identifies it as an unprecedented time of persecution (trouble) upon God's people. Jesus called it great tribulation (thlipsis = persecution), that is unprecedented violent persecution upon the elect for Jesus' name's sake (Matt 24:9-24). Jesus makes it clear that this unparalleled persecution is upon those who follow Him, the elect (Matt 24:9, 22, 24).

 

The word elect is used many times in the New Testament and to whom it refers is determined by the context. Paul, in speaking to the believers in Rome (Jew and Gentile) says "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth."(Rom 8:33) Throughout the New Testament, the primary use of the word elect refers to believers in Christ. This includes both believing Jews and believing Gentiles who make up the Body of Christ, the church. In Romans 11:7 Paul distinguishes Israel, which believed not, from the elect which believed. "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded." Even though Israel is elect in the sense that God chose them from among all the other nations to be a people to bear His name, it is only those who believed among that nation who are truly the elect.

 

It is also true that God, having removed the unbelieving natural branches from the root (the fathers to whom the promises were made), graffed in among the believing branches of Israel branches from the wild olive tree. These branches from the wild olive tree are Gentiles who have responded to the gospel and have been placed into Christ by the Holy Spirit. The promises of the new covenant are through the root to the branches which are both Jew and Gentile believers. Today the elect are those who are in Christ.

 

Fact 3) The elect are believing Jews and believing Gentiles in the body of Christ.

 

The word elect is used 3 times in Matthew 24, each time it refers to believers in Jesus Christ. We see the nature of those who are violently persecuted in verse 9, where we read: "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake." It is for Christ's name sake that these are being persecuted. These persecuted saints are Christians. Careful attention to the spatial language and connecting adverbs used by Christ as recorded in Matthew 24 will make it clear that in verse 9 He begins to speak of the period of unprecedented persecution and continues to refer to aspects of it until verse 29.

 

In verse 15 Jesus gives further details concerning the persecution He began to speak of in verse 9. We know this by the use of "therefore" in verse 15. He says the unprecedented persecution begins when the rebuilt temple is defiled (abomination of desolation) in the middle of the week (Dan 9:27) by the revelation of the man of sin (the Beast) (2Thes 2:3-4). He says to the inhabitants of Judaea that when they see that happen, to flee. Most prophetic statements of the Scriptures are centered around Jerusalem in Judaea, so we would expect Christ's warnings to be centered there. However, Rev 13 makes it clear that this persecution will be world-wide.

 

Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19  And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

 

Jesus further describes the severity and scope of this persecution saying that it is unprecedented. It is here that the familiar name "great tribulation" is given this period of persecution of the saints. The Greek word translated tribulation is "thlipsis." It is the same word that is translated afflicted in verse 9. It means pressure, and, in this context, it refers to the crushing weight of violent persecution.

 

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

He says that it is so violent that it will threaten to extinguish every believer form off the earth. To save some of the elect (believers) alive upon the earth, He says, those days are cut short. We should note that this is the first use of the word elect in the account. We see that it is the elect who are being killed in the unparalleled persecution. Remember, from verse 9, those that are being persecuted unto death are persecuted for the name of Christ. These elect, are not unbelieving Israel, they are us, the saints of God, the church.

 

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

 

Again, Jesus warns of false Christs, and the lying wonders that they will use to deceive those who profess Christ. He says the deception will be so great that if it were possible even the true believer (the very elect) would be deceived. This is the second use of elect in the text. Here Jesus implies that the true elect cannot be deceived by the signs and wonders done by the false prophet. However, unbelieving Israel is still in blindness because the fullness of the Gentiles is not yet come in. Rev 7:9-17 describes an innumerable multitude of primarily Gentiles that came out of great tribulation. These are said to be saved just as we are, in the blood of the Lamb. If God is still calling out a people for His name from among the Gentiles during the great tribulation than Israel still remains forensically blinded (Rom 11:25). Therefore, the elect, who cannot be deceived, must be the Church.

 

Mat 24:23  Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

 

The age-old adage is, “to be forewarned is to be forearmed”. With these warnings Christ has armed us against deception, specifically that deception related to His arrival at His parousia. He says that His coming (parousia) will be unmistakable, as unmistakable as the smell of the dead to carrion eating birds.

 

Mat 24:25  Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26  Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28  For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

 

Jesus then tells us what event signals that the unprecedented persecution is over. It is an identifiable cosmic sign, the very sign that Joel and other prophets said would precede the day of the Lord. Following the cosmic sign, the whole world will see the wonder of Christ in the atmospheric heaven as He comes with His holy angels. The earth dwellers will mourn in fear, having been caught unawares, like a thief in the night catches the unsuspecting home dweller. He will then send His angels to gather His elect, the persecuted, to Him in the clouds.

 

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

Notice that there was not a single mention by Christ of God's wrath in these verses. However, there is much detail concerning the unprecedented persecution of the elect called great tribulation.

 

Fact 4) The elect of Matthew 24 are Christians.

 

The elect who are being afflicted (thlipsis) and killed are experiencing such because of their identification with Jesus Christ.

 

Mat 24:9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

 

Fact 5) The great tribulation is not the wrath of God, it is the wrath of Satan, through the Beast upon the elect.

 

When Satan is cast out of Heaven in the midst of the week he focuses his greatest expression of wrath upon the elect and Israel

 

Rev 12:12  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Rev 12:13  And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

 

Rev 12:17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

The wrath of God will not fall upon the earth-dwellers until after the period of unprecedented persecution of the elect is cut short by Christ's return to rescue (resurrect and rapture) His elect. The rescue is signaled by the cosmic sign of Joel 2:31 as Jesus said in Matt 24:29 and as John witnessed when the sixth seal is opened.

 

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

 

Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

 

Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

 

Every elect Jew today is a part of the Body of Christ, as is every Gentile believer. The church is the elect, the church is the chosen. The church is made up of all true believers in Jesus Christ. The elect are all of the true believers.

 

In the New Testament:

 

There are elect angels

 

(1Ti 5:21)  I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

 

Jesus is said to be elect or chosen

 

(Luk 23:35)  And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.

 

(1Pe 2:4)  To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,

 

(1Pe 2:6)  Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

 

John wrote to the elect lady and spoke of an elect sister

 

(2Jn 1:1)  The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;

 

(2Jn 1:13)  The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.

 

The apostles were chosen

 

(Joh 15:16)  Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

 

The church is the elect in the following passages

 

(These elect in Matt 24 and Mark 13 must be the church because Jesus implies that it is not possible for the very elect to be deceived (Matt 24:24) and Israel remains blind (deceivable) in part until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in and there are still Gentiles (Rev 7:9) being added to Christ in the great tribulation.)

 

(Mat 24:22)  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

(Mat 24:24)  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

 

(Mat 24:31)  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

(Mar 13:20)  And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

 

(Mar 13:22)  For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

 

(Mar 13:27)  And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

 

(Luk 18:7)  And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

 

(Rom 8:33)  Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

 

(Rom 11:5)  Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. (These are Jewish believers who are part of the church)

 

(Rom 11:7)  What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

 

(Col 3:12)  Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

 

(1Th 1:4)  Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

 

(2Ti 2:10)  Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

 

(Tit 1:1)  Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

 

(1Pe 1:2)  Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

 

(Mat 20:16)  So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

 

(Mat 22:14)  For many are called, but few are chosen.

 

(Rom 16:13)  Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.

 

(1Pe 2:9)  But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

 

(2Pe 1:10)  Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

 

The chosen here would also include restored Israel

 

(Rev 17:14)  These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Glory be to Jesus Christ

First, I agree that God is working with Jews during the Church Age, in fact, I would argue that God is working with the entire world - including, Muslims, Buddhists, Catholics, Mormons, Adventists, and yes, even Atheists. The point is NOT that Jews and Christians are separate, or that God has only focused His attention on the Church in last 2000 years. You said Michael has been standing up protecting the Jewish remnant (must be the remnant, because they were nearly wiped out) since the first century. That would mean that Dan. 12:1 then comes right after the events of the first century (AoD, etc..) - I know you do NOT agree with that, and that is why you have to invent the idea of Michael "standing aside" during the tribulation period. I and others have shown you wrong on the idea of "standing aside".

Do you even believe that there will be a literal 1000 years that is specifically in place for the Jewish people and NOT the church (which is the New Jerusalem)? 

You said.." "Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded." Even though Israel is elect in the sense that God chose them from among all the other nations to be a people to bear His name, it is only those who believed among that nation who are truly the elect."

You are saying the SAME thing we are  with one exception.... You are saying BOTH at the same time. Israel (the Jews) are a "chosen people" from all the nations in the world, AND you are also saying "elect" ONLY refers to those who accept Jesus. In your post, you said chosen and elect are the SAME thing, but only when you say so.

You used, Matt. 24 &25 as well as parallel accounts in Mark and Luke, but all those references would be attached to Jews and NOT the Church Age believers if one understands that all those refer to events in the first century (when the "Church" was notably Jewish) and the tribulation period (after the Church is gone). Now, we see why you and others are so stiff-necked on the AoD and the 70th week debate.

When the "elect" are gathered, they are gathered by whom? The "angels"!

When the rapture occurs, believers are gathered by whom? Jesus!

These are two separate events in the Bible.

You mentioned Rev. 12 and Satan being cast down. Yes, the "elect" are gathered at the end of the tribulation as all ready shown.

You said, "Christians are rescued at the 6th seal and Joel 2:31". Yes, the rapture BEFORE the tribulation.

You said the elect and the chosen are the same. YES, Jesus, the apostles, and believing Jews are ALL examples of Jewish believers who are given a special calling or purpose by God.

You said non-believing Jews are "blinded" and "deceivable", correct, but the believing Jews are NOT - just like believing gentiles. 

Luke 18:7 actually does refer to Jews and not Christians as you propose.

All other NT mentions are spoken to believing Jews who are part of the generation that will experience the horrors of 70ad - UNLESS THEY KNEW WHAT WAS COMING AND FLED TO THE MOUNTAINS right away. We have shown this to you before, but you refuse to accept the truth. The only people who survived the 70ad attack were Christians (believing Jews). 

You left out some key verses =

Isa. 45:3 "And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the Lord, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.

⁴ For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me."   

---Isa. 57 is the rapture and start of the tribulation--

--By this point in ch. 65, God is speaking of the Millennium and the promises made to Israel (not the Church) --

Isa 65:8 "Thus saith the Lord, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.  (great winepress)

⁹ And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.   ("servants" = Christians. We are the first... they are the last)

¹⁰ And Sharon shall be a fold of flocks, and the valley of Achor a place for the herds to lie down in, for my people that have sought me.

Isa 65:22 "They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands." (Millennial promises for the JEWS)

Yes, Many are called (Christians), but few are chosen (set apart for a specific purpose). The nation of Israel and the Jewish believers are indeed set apart for a specific and important purpose AFTER the true believers are GONE and before the final tribulation begins. False teachers & prophets will still be here after the rapture and they will say that "in 3.5 years - the A/C will come to Jerusalem and proclaim to be the Messiah".

The 70th week is vitally important to make sure you have the calculations correct! Prove it to me and I will be with you and even "un-publish" my book! Will any of you authors out there make that claim also? 

 

 

"The greatest and noblest pleasure which we have in this world is to discover new truths, and the next is to shake off old prejudices."    Frederick the Great

 

Edited February 8, 2019 by DonkeySpeaksAgain
added notes

[Littlelambseativy]

Oh wow, I am getting into what appears to be a hot debate re rapture, 2nd coming, Judah and Israel, and the 70 weeks etc.  

When the Israel became a nation in 1948 the last 70 weeks began...we are now past that time...a time of grace from God perhaps, until the last person to be raptured has turned his life over to Jesus as Lord. The last 7 yrs start immediately after the rapture. 

Rapture..At that time there will be a rapture referred to by the 1o virgins waiting for the bridegroom. The 5 whose oil did not run out and we’re waiting, went in and the door was shut. Or 2 sleeping and one taken, 2 harvesting and one taken the other left behind etc. or had the strongman not been sleeping then no one would be missing.

Re the 2nd coming .. Jesus first coming was as a child born to Mary the 2nd will be when His feet touch the Mount of Olives and the Mount splits sending pure water to cleanse the Dead Sea.

With regard to Israel and Judah, Israel joined Judah to become one. That is why the people of Israel are called JU’s from the name Judah.

Edited February 8, 2019 by Littlelambseativy

[Revelation Man]

8 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

O ye whose name I cannot say, you are not doing your homework again. And you said nobody knows eschatology like you do. Ha! Ha! What no response to the correction you received on page 11?

Had you considered the parallel passage in Mark you would have seen that your explanation was deceptive? But maybe you knew that. Since you boast to be a master of prophecy I will not treat you as a novice, but as one attempting to hide the truth from others.         

Mar 13:24  But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25  And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27  And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Let's emphasize the last part of the passage shall we.  "from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven"

As long as there are a few of us on this board who know the truth we will continue to expose falsehood.

Glory be to the Lamb                                                                           

You have uttered a non sequitur, your point does not logically follow what what I stated at all. I never stated that Elect are not gathered on earth also, I just pointed out we are gathered from Heaven in addition, like verse 31 says. Of course both are correct but only in the pre trib account.

Since we {Church} are in Heaven, naturally we are gathered from the four corners of Heaven.  And when we come back Jesus has to gather the ELECT from earth also !! So that jibes with the scriptures, but not with a post trib rapture, only with a pre trib rapture. You just posted a passage that agrees with the pre trib logic. The elect are gathered from Heaven AND from earth.  WHICH FITS THIS.

Rev. 19, we come back from Heaven with Jesus and MEN are still living on earth !!