Why Pretrib Logic Fails

[iamlamad]

Just now, Revelation Man said:

The Church returns with Jesus from Heaven, the verse clearly states that those n Heaven are being gathered. If you want to read Mark be my guest, I am reading Matthew, and it's very clear, the elect are gathered from Heaven, we return with Christ to earth, just like Rev. 19 states. The Elect can't be gatherd from Heaven unless they are in Heaven. ow if you want to say Matthew was wrong, that is on you. 

You are missing the point! Mark heard the very same Olivet discourse that Matthew heard. We must include BOTH to get the total message Jesus spoke that day. The gathering is from BOTH heaven and earth.  

However, it is sure that we are coming back with Jesus. I just don't think that is what Matthew was talking about. OF COURSE Matthew is not wrong! That is silly. The point is, the Jews and Hebrews will be gathered. And angels will accomplish that.  I don't think angels will be needed to gather the church. OF COURSE the church will be in heaven when Jesus descends. I agree with that too. I only disagree that this gathering Matthew tells us of will be the church.

[Revelation Man]

26 minutes ago, Cletus said:

The Man of Lawlessness
2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5  Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

the antichrist comes first, the abomonation of desolation comes first, the great falling away comes first.... and Paul preached this in the first century.  the bible says so.  pre-trib fails again. 

For starters, you don't seem to get what they were FEARING was upon them. The Wrath of God or the Day of the Lord. And Paul is basically telling them, don't be silly, I told you before when I was with you that both the Departure of the Church and the Man of Sin must come BEFORE the Wrath of God comes, even if it were he Falling away and the Man of Sin {which it isn't}, that would still only mean both come BEFORE the Day of the Lord or God's Wrath can fall upon them. But of course it's all about the DEPARTURE of the Church, thus the mention in the 1st verse about the Gathering unto Christ. I beseech you as per the gathering together unto Christ, that you fear not because that day will not come until the Church Departs and the Man of Sin comes. {THEN and only then will God's Wrath fall on Mankind}. 

Peoples eschatology just boggles my mind. 

38 minutes ago, Cletus said:

i dont care about being right...

And you are never going to be right about the Rapture my friend. 

 

[Revelation Man]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You are missing the point! Mark heard the very same Olivet discourse that Matthew heard. We must include BOTH to get the total message Jesus spoke that day. The gathering is from BOTH heaven and earth.  

However, it is sure that we are coming back with Jesus. I just don't think that is what Matthew was talking about. OF COURSE Matthew is not wrong! That is silly. The point is, the Jews and Hebrews will be gathered. And angels will accomplish that.  I don't think angels will be needed to gather the church. OF COURSE the church will be in heaven when Jesus descends. I agree with that too. I only disagree that this gathering Matthew tells us of will be the church.

The point is Matthew is telling us what Jesus said, he's not ADDING ANYTHING, and Mark is telling what he remembers, both were written years later, but Matthew is telling us that the ELECT will be gathered from Heaven in this instance. It is what it is. 

Edited February 9, 2019 by Revelation Man

[Steve Conley]

23 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I see a problem: I am amazed you don't see it:

"except there come a falling away first"

you said:

"the antichrist comes first"

"the abomonation of desolation comes first"

"the great falling away comes first"

Why not just stick with what Paul wrote?  Did you consider the CONTEXT?  Paul tells us there is someone restraining the man of sin, preventing him from being revealed (As the Beast) before the proper time. Paul goes on to say that at the right time, the one restraining will be "taken out of the way." If we look close in verse 3, we see that the one restraining HAS BEEN "taken out of the way" for the man of sin IS revealed. 

Therefore in the first part of verse 3 there MUST BE a hint of something "taken out of the way." It can only be hidden in Paul's use of the word "apostasy."  The first several translations into English rendered that word"departing."  Here is Coverdale example:

"³ Let noman disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte the departynge come first, and that that Man of synne be opened, euen the sonne of perdicion,"

Therefore  It is only ONE THING that comes first, as the one restraining is "taken out of the way" or is departing.  Notice that it  is not just any departing, it is THE departing - a very significant one. What is Paul's THEME for this passage? It is the rapture of the church or the "gathering." Paul is telling us that it is the CHURCH (the Holy Spirit working through the church) that is the restraining force - and when the church is "taken out of the way," then the man if sin will be revealed. 

The truth then is that Paul preached to them exactly what we read in 1 Thes: that the rapture will come just before the wrath of God in the start of the DAY of the Lord. And John shows us that the DAY starts before the entire 70th week starts - so absolutely before the midpoint when the man of sin is revealed. 

Did you not read in Daniel 9 that the 70th week is for HIS PEOPLE: the Jews and Hebrews? Did you not read in Daniel 12 that God's purpose for the 70th week is to completely shatter the power of Israel so that they will have no choice but to trust in God? God has no reason to subject the church to His wrath. Paul makes that clear. This is GOOD news, not bad, and it is comforting. That is why Paul told us to comfort one another: we are NOT going through God's wrath upon the Jews and an unrepentant world. 

 

 

 

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Mr. Mad, apostasia refers to a religious departure, not the rapture. It is that which Jesus spoke of in Matt 24:10 "and many shall be offended" when they face severe persecution. There is not a single reference in all of the known historic Koine Greek literature where apostasia is used to communicate a physical departure. Every use communicated either a religious or political departure.  The KJV translators recognized the historic teaching of the church concerning apostasia and appropriately translated it "falling away" as to leave no ambiguity concerning its meaning.

The idea that this use of apostasia is the rapture is very recent. It is the latest attempt of the secret rapturists to provide some kind of support for the bankrupt pre-trib model for the rapture.

You have abandoned all use of grammar in your reading of the 2Thes 2 text. Try again.

Glory be to Jesus Christ

Edited February 9, 2019 by Steve Conley

[Steve Conley]

22 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

 

I would add the following scriptures about the righteous judgment of God v

Verse list:    
1Pe 4:12-19 KJV    Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Rom 2:5-7 KJV    But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT OF GOD; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
2Th 1:4-5 KJV    So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT OF GOD, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

*[[Luk 22:18]] KJV* For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

*[[2Ti 4:1]] KJV* I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Blessings 

The PuP 

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

PuP, the suffering that we have been appointed unto according to the will of God is not God's day of the Lord wrath.

Praise Jesus

[iamlamad]

23 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Mr. Mad, (I-am-la (French for "the")-mad, I'm sorry, but that is what I think when I see that name) what I presented is exactly what one will conclude when reading the text without being told ahead of time what to think about it. 

It is true that God's wrath begins after the 6th seal at the opening of the seventh and blowing of the first trumpet and continues on throughout the rest of the week, culminating in the vials. And Jesus surely has wrath when He descends to the battle of Armageddon. Therefore God's wrath goes from Rev. chapter 8 (the 1st trumpet) all the way to Rev. 19.

The day of the Lord begins after the opening of the sixth seal, but the wrath doesn't begin to fall until later that day after the 1/2 hour of silence in Heaven. At Christ's appearing, after the cosmic sign which John sees upon the opening of the sixth seal, the earth dwellers begin to hide and the saints are resurrected/changed and raptured. The day of the Lord begins with Christ's glorious appearing, the wrath falls after He has raptured the church and sealed the 144,000.

"Earth dwellers" (they that dwell upon the earth) is a technical term for those unbelieving Beast worshipers who persecute the elect. I try to be very intentional with every word I use, although undoubtedly there are times I misspeak. 

Many have wrong ideas about various terms used in eschatological passages. For instance, in Koine Greek, there are two primary words which communicate the idea of persecution. First, there is diōkō and its various forms which emphasize the fleeing or being pursued aspect of persecution. An example of this is:

2Ti 3:12  Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

The second Koine Greek word thlibō or thlipsis communicates the pressure aspect of persecution. An example of it is:

Act 11:19  Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

It is thlipsis that Jesus uses in Matt 24.

Mat 24:9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted (thlipsis), and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation (thlipsis), such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation (thlipsis) of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

It is thlibō and thlipsis that Paul uses when writing to the Thessalonians.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation (thlipsis) to them that trouble (thlibō ) you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled (thlibō )  rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

In this text, Paul mentions both the persecution that the elect suffers and the persecution (trouble, tribulation) that God will bring upon those who persecuted us.

This isn't that difficult. You just have to accept the fact the the wool has been pulled over your eyes in the past and now you need to embrace the truth.

Glory be unto Jesus Christ the Lord

 

Steve, "lamad" means teacher in Hebrew, or "to teach" or "to learn." I am a teacher. I am lamad.  (Just so you know!)

How funny that you imagine the wool has been pulled over my eyes. I am sure it is the reverse. 

"The day of the Lord begins after the opening of the sixth seal, but the wrath doesn't begin to fall until later that day after the 1/2 hour of silence in Heaven."  What if His wrath is in the earthquake at the 6th seal? Did you read Isaiah 2 about the earthquake as a part of the Day of the Lord - and that the DAY is a day of His wrath? Therefore I think His wrath begins at the earthquake. However, this is a very minor point.

At Christ's appearing, after the cosmic sign which John sees upon the opening of the sixth seal, the earth dwellers begin to hide and the saints are resurrected/changed and raptured.   Ah! So you have a coming at the 6th seal? And you think the wool is over my eyes? Can we just believe Revelation as written? His coming for the rapture? Or His coming for Armageddon? I am guessing you mean His coming for the rapture. 

Again we are very close in our belief here: I think His coming for the rapture is a moment BEFORE the 6th seal, and that the great earthquake at the 6th seal will be caused by the dead in Christ rising. In Matthew 27 we read "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened..."  I see that as a precedent: that when God raises those long dead from the grave, it will CAUSE an earthquake. Some of the dead in Christ will have been dead almost 2000 years. Their atoms or quarks will be scattered - perhaps for miles. When God brings those particles that once made up the bodies of the saints - it will cause a mighty earthquake. 

Paul tells us that a moment after the dead in Christ rise: two groups of people get two very different results: those living in the light of the Gospel get raptured, and so are saved from the sudden destruction earthquake. But those living in the darkness are left behind and cannot escape, for this is a worldwide earthquake.

Then Paul tells us this sudden destruction is the start of God's wrath - and that we won't be here - no appointments set.  Paul hints strongly that this wrath and destruction are the start of the Day of the Lord. All this fits perfectly with Revelation. John tells us that the 5th seal are the martyrs of the church age - and they are told they must wait for the final number of martyrs: in other words, judgment will not come until the very last church age martyr will be killed. In other words, those under the altar will just have to wait for the rapture that will end the church age.  What does John say next? He starts the 6th seal which is judgment. 

In other words, the church has been waiting between the 5th and 6th seals all this time! The Dead in Christ will suddenly rise, an earthquake will begin, but those alive and in Christ will be caught up just as they feel the ground begin to shake. They get salvation, while those left behind cannot escape the start of God's wrath. 

Therefore I think His coming for the rapture will be a moment BEFORE the the 6th seal, not during and not after. Again, we are close.

Did you forget that the comic signs at the 6th seal are for the DAY, not for the rapture? Or do you insist that the rapture and the DAY are the same thing? When we read about the Day of the Lord in the Old Testament, it simply does not fit the rapture. It is a DARK day of wrath. I think Paul tells us the rapture will TRIGGER the DAY. 

The day of the Lord begins with Christ's glorious appearing, the wrath falls after He has raptured the church and sealed the 144,000. I wonder: Can you find anything in Paul's writings of the rapture that His coming FOR His bride will be a glorious appearing except the verse in Titus?  I think He will be hidden in a cloud! Yes, He will certainly appear glorious to the saints who are caught up, but I don't think the world will see Him.   However, we cannot be dogmatic on this as the bible does not make it clear. Do YOU think the world will see Him at the rapture? Do you think the world will see us leave?

the wrath falls after He has raptured the church and sealed the 144,000.  John shows us that the earthquake will come before the first trumpet. The question then is the earthquake the opening salvo of His wrath? I think it is. 

As I see chapter 7, I liken it to a play with different acts and the closing curtain between the acts of the play. What happens when the curtain closes? They players REARRANGE the set to fit the next act. Since the 7th seal officially opens the 70th week of Daniel, I see chapter 7 as God rearranging the set to fit the next act: the 70th week. In the mind of God, TWO events must be accomplished before that 7th seal is opened: the church MUST be safely seen in heaven, and the 144,000 must be sealed for their protection.  Again we seem very close.

Do you believe that the sun will turn dark and the moon appear red before the Day of the Lord begins?  That is what Joel says! Since I am a stickler for sticking to John's chronology, it seems he shows the earthquake first, and THEN the signs in the sun and moon. Perhaps they happen at the same time. However, it seems to follow Joel, the DAY then MUST come after the earthquake.....which means you are probably right here. I may have to change my thinking. Thanks. Perhaps then THE DAY and the 70th week start simultaneously at the 7th seal. 

However, I think you have it backwards: His coming for the rapture will be the trigger for the start of the DAY. 

At Christ's appearing, after the cosmic sign which John sees upon the opening of the sixth seal, the earth dwellers begin to hide and the saints are resurrected/changed and raptured.  I don't think so. I am still not convinced that the world actually SEES his face. how can they when He is hidden in a cloud of glory? There is no verse anywhere that gives cosmic signs as a sign of the rapture! It is the sign for the DAY.  Paul does mention THE DAY just 3 verses after His classic rapture verse of 1 Thes. 4:17  I take that as sowing the rapture will be the trigger for the DAY.  If you read Isaiah 2, the people are scared out of their wits because of the earthquake - not because they actually SEE God.  However, Isaiah does write, "for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty." Perhaps then He WILL BE visible at the rapture. Could they just be imagining His glory?  

I still think the dead in Christ rising will start this whole scenario, causing the great earthquake: Paul's sudden destruction. THEN, after those alive have been raptured, then the signs in the sun and moon. In other words, there will be NO SIGN to give a hint of when the dead in Christ rise.

"Earth dwellers" (they that dwell upon the earth) is a technical term for those unbelieving Beast worshipers who persecute the elect.  The problem is, at the 6th seal, John has not yet started the 70th week, much less arrived at the days of GT that will come in the second half of the week.  I too try to be very careful with my words.  But I do write things occasionally that I wish I had written better.

when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,  I think Paul is talking about His coming to the Battle of Armageddon. Our rest will not be complete until the wicked are judged.

You did well with this post  - until to talked about wool!  ?

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Cletus said:

the wrath does not come until the mercy seat is no longer available.  judgment and wrath are different.  the great trib and wrath is different. 

revelation 15:7 & 8.  Isaiah 6, ex 40, 1 Kings 8.

i understand when the wrath comes as being after the bride is caught up... and then the bowl/vials are poured out.  its not until Jesus returns.  do you understand where the mercy seat is in the OT temple?  this places the wrath right after the time Jesus comes back for His bride.  no more petitions or intercessions will be heard until the judgment is complete. 

the departure is not "the rapture"  if you study the greek you will learn this.  they are departing from the Lord.  falling away.  just think about it for a few ticks... Jesus wont come back and rapture us until after he raptures us?  any time you read that day or the day or the day of The Lord... its speaking to when Jesus comes for us.  if you study the greek AND hebrew you will also learn this.  its the same implication in both OT and NT.  in the greek its the word Hemera.  the day.  so how then can the day... the day of the Lord... come before the day comes?  now i once again point to the title of this thread.  pretrib logic fails. 

edit: seriously go study this word depart... it has the meaning of falling... gravity works and its Gods order of things.  you cant fall into the clouds... you can be caught up... rapturo.  the words have polar opposite meanings. 

If people are caught up, they are approaching the clouds but are DEPARTING earth. It is all a matter of perspective.

I disagree with your take on "the trib" and wrath. The truth is, when Satan's wrath it at its peak, and the killing machine of the Beast is at its peak, the "trib" is in full swing so to speak, then God pours out the vials of His wrath. In other words, they are simultaneous - happening at the same time. They CANNOT be separated as far as time. God's wrath begins at the 6th seal and will continue on through the entire 70th week. 

i understand when the wrath comes as being after the bride is caught up... and then the bowl/vials are poured out.   No, God's wrath begins before the entire 70th week and continues on through the week. The trumpet judgments in the first half of the week come with God's wrath. 

this places the wrath right after the time Jesus comes back for His bride.  I don't understand your thinking, but I agree: the rapture comes a moment before the 6th seal, and God's wrath begins at the 6th seal. 

they are departing from the Lord.  falling away.   You need to rethink this! There is NO information in the word Apostasia that tells us what is being departed FROM. It is not there: NADA.  Did you ever look up the Greek for "APO" the first part of the compound word "apostasia?" Strong's tells us it can mean a PART of a whole group moved (departed) from the whole group to a different location.  The "stasia" part of the word means standing still, not moving, as in a stationary engine.  In other words, the rapture will happen so fast, it is as if the rest of the world is standing still. 

Jesus wont come back and rapture us until after he raptures us?  any time you read that day or the day or the day of The Lord... its speaking to when Jesus comes for us. Sorry, but this part is MYTH. Did you ever read about the Day of the Lord in the Old Testament? It is a DARK DAY, when God's plan is to destroy the earth and the sinners on the earth. "Rapture" is not synonymous with THE DAY! The truth is, the rapture will TRIGGER THE DAY.

How then can the day... the day of the Lord... come before the day comes?  You need to rethink this too! Go back and study it again: Paul tells us one thing comes FIRST: that is the departing. Then, AFTER the departing, the man of sin will be revealed. It is very simple: the church  - the Holy Spirit working through the church - is restraining the man of sin today. But when the church is taken out of the way, (first) THEN the man of sin can be revealed. When someone SEES this revealing, then they will KNOW (no doubt about it) that THE DAY Has started and they are now IN IT. 

Edited February 9, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

44 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Mr. Mad, apostasia refers to a religious departure, not the rapture. It is that which Jesus spoke of in Matt 24:10 "and many shall be offended" when they face severe persecution. There is not a single reference in all of the known historic Koine Greek literature where apostasia is used to communicate a physical departure. Every use communicated either a religious or political departure.  The KJV translators recognized the historic teaching of the church concerning apostasia and appropriately translated it "falling away" as to leave no ambiguity concerning its meaning.

The idea that this use of apostasia is the rapture is very recent. It is the latest attempt of the secret rapturists to provide some kind of support for the bankrupt pre-trib model for the rapture.

You have abandoned all use of grammar in your reading of the 2Thes 2 text. Try again.

Glory be to Jesus Christ

Now, let's talk TRUTH here! Not man's ideas! The word "apostasia" means to depart, but there is NO INFORMATION as to what is being departed FROM. Therefore it is only man's ideas and human reasoning to say "religious departure."  Paul's theme is the departing of the church, not some religious departure.  Therefore I disagree.  Will you agree: there is always a FIRST use of a word? 

Did you ever wonder why Paul wrote, "and now you know?" Why on earth would Paul pen those words - unless he just TOLD THEM? 

⁶ And now ye know what (who) withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Paul is talking about who or what is doing the restraining -  holding back the man of sin. And He tells us NOW YOU KNOW. Why then is it that we have no consensus of opinion about it? Paul KNEW and He told us so we would know. Yet people don't understand. 

Make no mistake here: in verse 3b, the man of sin IS REVEALED (In Paul's argument) so logic demands that in verse 3a the one restraining MUST HAVE BEEN  "taken out of the way."  (the meaning of every verse MUST fit the context of the entire passage.)

If we examine 3a, there is only ONE WORD that could possibly mean something "taken out of the way." It is the word "apostasia." Perhaps you have not studied this word in depth. As a compound word, its simple meaning is a departing. From what Paul does not specify. The question is, CAN this word mean something else?  It is a compound word - "apo" and "stasia."

Here is what STrong's says about "apo:

"of separation; of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing,...

of separation of a part from the whole; where of a whole some part is taken

of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed

of a state of separation, that is of distance; physical, of distance of place

At the rapture, will some part of the entire population be taken? You know the answer is YES.

Will those taken be separated by DISTANCE? Again the answer is YES. 

The other part of the compound word 'stasia" is where we get "stationary" or "not moving" from.

Putting these two words together then can certainly mean a part of a whole group suddenly moved from where they were to a new location, and it happen so fast, the rest of the whole group seems stationary - not moving.

Therefore I am convinced that Paul's intent is that THE CHURCH (or rather the Holy Spirit working through the church) is the entity doing the restraining. And when the church is "taken out of the way" THEN the man if sin can be revealed.  

Perhaps then, this idea is NOT "recent" but is exactly what the first readers of Paul's letter understood. He had a REASON to write, "and now you know." He used a word differently than normal use, and wanted them to go back and read it over and over. He TOLD them who was restraining and that it would be "taken out of the way." 

If you think a falling away (from what Paul does not tell us) fits "taken out of the way" better than the rapture, go for it!  If you think a falling away fits the restraining force being removed, go for it. I don't think so. 

On the contrary, I am very good with grammar. I think Paul made good sense. I can only imagine WHY Paul wrote this as he did, but my guess is, if Roman's read it, Paul wanted them to be clueless about the rapture.  He wrote it so that ONLY those in Thes. that heard him teach and read his first letter would get it.

 

 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Cletus said:

paul did write the scripture i quoted, and you are ignoring it.  so why is it that you do not stick to what Paul wrote? 

in another thread you were given clear as day what certain words meant concerning departure from not only myself but also others.  you continue to hold fast to believing something the bible does not say.... making it say something else.  you can not twist scripture to make it mean what you want.  God is specific with His words.  I will not continue with you on this because you have shown to be unwilling to do this.  I do not mean to be abrasive, but until you come to the knowledge of Gods word this conversation will bear no fruit. 

OF COURSE I am not ignoring it!  I quoted one verse in big print!  If I am QUOTING scripture and saying what it says, "departing" how can you can I am making it say something else? I did not write "departing!" Several early translations used that word. Did you not look in STrongs to SEE what "Apostasia" means?  Did you know it is a compound word made up of Apo and stasia? Do you know what Strong's says of each of these?

Apo:  of separation; of local separation, 

after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing,...

of separation of a part from the whole; where of a whole some part is taken

of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed

of a state of separation, that is of distance; physical, of distance of place

Now tell the truth: at the rapture, will a PART of the whole population be taken to a different location?

[Steve Conley]

4 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Steve, "lamad" means teacher in Hebrew, or "to teach" or "to learn." I am a teacher. I am lamad.  (Just so you know!)

How funny that you imagine the wool has been pulled over my eyes. I am sure it is the reverse. 

"The day of the Lord begins after the opening of the sixth seal, but the wrath doesn't begin to fall until later that day after the 1/2 hour of silence in Heaven."  What if His wrath is in the earthquake at the 6th seal? Did you read Isaiah 2 about the earthquake as a part of the Day of the Lord - and that the DAY is a day of His wrath? Therefore I think His wrath begins at the earthquake. However, this is a very minor point.

At Christ's appearing, after the cosmic sign which John sees upon the opening of the sixth seal, the earth dwellers begin to hide and the saints are resurrected/changed and raptured.   Ah! So you have a coming at the 6th seal? And you think the wool is over my eyes? Can we just believe Revelation as written? His coming for the rapture? Or His coming for Armageddon? I am guessing you mean His coming for the rapture. 

Again we are very close in our belief here: I think His coming for the rapture is a moment BEFORE the 6th seal, and that the great earthquake at the 6th seal will be caused by the dead in Christ rising. In Matthew 27 we read "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened..."  I see that as a precedent: that when God raises those long dead from the grave, it will CAUSE an earthquake. Some of the dead in Christ will have been dead almost 2000 years. Their atoms or quarks will be scattered - perhaps for miles. When God brings those particles that once made up the bodies of the saints - it will cause a mighty earthquake. 

Paul tells us that a moment after the dead in Christ rise: two groups of people get two very different results: those living in the light of the Gospel get raptured, and so are saved from the sudden destruction earthquake. But those living in the darkness are left behind and cannot escape, for this is a worldwide earthquake.

Then Paul tells us this sudden destruction is the start of God's wrath - and that we won't be here - no appointments set.  Paul hints strongly that this wrath and destruction are the start of the Day of the Lord. All this fits perfectly with Revelation. John tells us that the 5th seal are the martyrs of the church age - and they are told they must wait for the final number of martyrs: in other words, judgment will not come until the very last church age martyr will be killed. In other words, those under the altar will just have to wait for the rapture that will end the church age.  What does John say next? He starts the 6th seal which is judgment. 

In other words, the church has been waiting between the 5th and 6th seals all this time! The Dead in Christ will suddenly rise, an earthquake will begin, but those alive and in Christ will be caught up just as they feel the ground begin to shake. They get salvation, while those left behind cannot escape the start of God's wrath. 

Therefore I think His coming for the rapture will be a moment BEFORE the the 6th seal, not during and not after. Again, we are close.

Did you forget that the comic signs at the 6th seal are for the DAY, not for the rapture? Or do you insist that the rapture and the DAY are the same thing? When we read about the Day of the Lord in the Old Testament, it simply does not fit the rapture. It is a DARK day of wrath. I think Paul tells us the rapture will TRIGGER the DAY. 

The day of the Lord begins with Christ's glorious appearing, the wrath falls after He has raptured the church and sealed the 144,000. I wonder: Can you find anything in Paul's writings of the rapture that His coming FOR His bride will be a glorious appearing except the verse in Titus?  I think He will be hidden in a cloud! Yes, He will certainly appear glorious to the saints who are caught up, but I don't think the world will see Him.   However, we cannot be dogmatic on this as the bible does not make it clear. Do YOU think the world will see Him at the rapture? Do you think the world will see us leave?

the wrath falls after He has raptured the church and sealed the 144,000.  John shows us that the earthquake will come before the first trumpet. The question then is the earthquake the opening salvo of His wrath? I think it is. 

As I see chapter 7, I liken it to a play with different acts and the closing curtain between the acts of the play. What happens when the curtain closes? They players REARRANGE the set to fit the next act. Since the 7th seal officially opens the 70th week of Daniel, I see chapter 7 as God rearranging the set to fit the next act: the 70th week. In the mind of God, TWO events must be accomplished before that 7th seal is opened: the church MUST be safely seen in heaven, and the 144,000 must be sealed for their protection.  Again we seem very close.

Do you believe that the sun will turn dark and the moon appear red before the Day of the Lord begins?  That is what Joel says! Since I am a stickler for sticking to John's chronology, it seems he shows the earthquake first, and THEN the signs in the sun and moon. Perhaps they happen at the same time. However, it seems to follow Joel, the DAY then MUST come after the earthquake.....which means you are probably right here. I may have to change my thinking. Thanks. Perhaps then THE DAY and the 70th week start simultaneously at the 7th seal. 

However, I think you have it backwards: His coming for the rapture will be the trigger for the start of the DAY. 

At Christ's appearing, after the cosmic sign which John sees upon the opening of the sixth seal, the earth dwellers begin to hide and the saints are resurrected/changed and raptured.  I don't think so. I am still not convinced that the world actually SEES his face. how can they when He is hidden in a cloud of glory? There is no verse anywhere that gives cosmic signs as a sign of the rapture! It is the sign for the DAY.  Paul does mention THE DAY just 3 verses after His classic rapture verse of 1 Thes. 4:17  I take that as sowing the rapture will be the trigger for the DAY.  If you read Isaiah 2, the people are scared out of their wits because of the earthquake - not because they actually SEE God.  However, Isaiah does write, "for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty." Perhaps then He WILL BE visible at the rapture. Could they just be imagining His glory?  

I still think the dead in Christ rising will start this whole scenario, causing the great earthquake: Paul's sudden destruction. THEN, after those alive have been raptured, then the signs in the sun and moon. In other words, there will be NO SIGN to give a hint of when the dead in Christ rise.

"Earth dwellers" (they that dwell upon the earth) is a technical term for those unbelieving Beast worshipers who persecute the elect.  The problem is, at the 6th seal, John has not yet started the 70th week, much less arrived at the days of GT that will come in the second half of the week.  I too try to be very careful with my words.  But I do write things occasionally that I wish I had written better.

when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,  I think Paul is talking about His coming to the Battle of Armageddon. Our rest will not be complete until the wicked are judged.

You did well with this post  - until to talked about wool!  ?

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Concerning the day of Christ (the Lord) and the rapture, it really isn't that hard. Jesus told His disciples that He would come again and receive them unto Himself. Paul calls this coming again the parousia in 1Thes 4:15. Jesus is asked by His disciples "what shall be the sign of thy parousia"? Jesus tells them of the condition of the world and the church (His followers) prior to His parousia. He tells them of the cosmic sign which will indicate that their redemption is nigh.

The future coming (parousia, which means arrival and continuing presence) of Christ only happens once. It is made up of His arrival and all that follows, even His destruction of the Antichrist at Armageddon which takes place much later in the day of the Lord. Revelation 19 is not describing Christ's arrival, His appearing gloriously in the clouds with the mighty Angels for every eye to see (Rev 1:7), it is describing His victory over the Beast and the nations which follow him.

The church always taught one future coming (parousia) as witnessed by Paul in Heb 9:28 and elsewhere. The idea of two future parousias is not only foreign to Scripture, it is practically non-existent in church history prior to JND.  No wonder you are so confused, Jesus didn't say I'm going to come again and again.

The parousia will end the unprecedented persecution of the saints. But it appears that most of the Saints will have been martyred by then.

Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Luk 18:8  I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Rev 6:9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Jesus comes in the second half of the week to end the great tribulation by rescuing those of us who are alive and remain after which He begins to pour out His wrath upon the earth dwellers.

Glory be to the Lamb