Why Pretrib Logic Fails

[Revelation Man]

4 hours ago, Cletus said:

you said "Which means they can repent, but chose not to it would seem."  and seem so it is... which means the mercy seat is still available.  therefore the church has not been caught up.  yet.  simple math. 

 

Simple mah to who ? You seem to forget, the Church being caught up does not stop God's Mercy, Israel repent during the 70th week, as does the REMNANT CHURCH, that is why its called the Remnant Church in Rev. 12:17. 

4 hours ago, Cletus said:

 who told you the seals are called the lambs wrath?  who?  certainly not the Word of God.  Nowhere, i repeat, nowhere does the bible say this however it refers to the bowls/vials as Gods wrath...

 

Rev. 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

The Seals are being opened and they are DESCRIBED as the Wrath of the Lamb. 

The Trumpets and the Vials come out of the 7th Seal. 

4 hours ago, Cletus said:

 Rev 15:1  And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

again, go back and read what i wrote.  look up those passages, and words. 

Jesus is God, Rev. 15 however has nothing to do with what I stated. The Seals are the Lambs Wrath. If I tell you a rooster dips snuff look under his wing and you'll find the can pardner. 

4 hours ago, Cletus said:

there is not one scripture that refers to the seals as Gods wrath.  or is there?  can you provide one?  i looked, and came up empty handed.  if you cant provide even one then you are speaking a teaching of man, and does not agree with scripture.   until you can do this, i see no reason to go on with the rest of what you wrote because i have already shown how pre trib logic fails. 

Since you couldn't find the Lamb's Wrath might I assume you are also missing the pre trib clues also ? 

4 hours ago, Cletus said:

Gods word does not contradict itself.  and what you have said does not line up with scripture, so far.  i highly doubt the rest will either.  you had one small part right but even in that there was misunderstanding... if they could repent the door isnt shut yet... so then, the groom didnt come yet. 

Nothing about Revelation or Daniel surprises me, if I say it then I understand it or I wouldn't say it.

As per the TRICKERY, I understand that........it's just you guys not understanding the Rapture and Second Coming are TWO SEPARATE EVENTS. Now when I say the Rapture happens pre 70th week and the 2nd coming happens at the end of  the 70th week....thus the Rapture can't happen until the Rapture is only you guys not understanding our position, or either pretending not to understand it, it's so simple I don't get how it could be missed.

Rapture/70 week begins........................................God's Wrath/Tribulation starts in the Middle/3.5..................................................Second Coming.

The Rapture doesn't happen at the Second Coming !! So ya'll can bookshelf that saying about the Rapture can't come until the Rapture. Ig you ever use it again, you know what you are saying is in error. 

[Revelation Man]

15 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi RM,

If we can look into scripture for the first use (Law of Primacy) of the word "Apostasy", we find it in the Old Testament,  in Jer 2:19, and Josh 22:22. Every time it means apostasy or rebellion in a religious or political sense.....never used as a spatial or physical sense.

Even the pre-tribulationist scholar Paul D Feinburg, who wrote the argument FOR the pre-tribulation view in the first edition of "Three views of the Rapture" admits, and quotes....

"If one searches for the uses of the noun 'apostasy' in the 355  occurrences over the 300 years period between the second century BC and the first century AD, one will not find a single instance where this word refers to a physical departure"

If Thomas Ice had used the Greek, (which he doesn't appeal to) he would have found this: (by the way, this is the same Greek Dictionary that you appealed to in an earlier response)

I don't care what the word has come to mean since the KJV translators made their error in the translation, WORDS always change. 75 years ago Gay meant happy, today most people see Gay as meaning a Homosexual {I still use the word homosexual}. So if we are speaking in reference to 75 years ago, one can't insist, HEY MAN, that means a Gay man !! dogmatically, it means a HAPPY PERSON when that reference was given 75 years ago. So the Dictionaries references MEAN NOTHING !! The Hebrew was used in the Old Testament, not Greek. But the word can mean a LEAVING of the Faith, but it can also mean a LEAVING from an actual place or a standing {as on earth to Heaven}. Just as I show in the other post, the DEFINITE ARTICLE points to a definite TYPE of Leaving, and that was shown in verse 1, a GATHERING UNTO Christ. Nowhere in the passage is FAITH even spoken of.

All you have to do is read the post, it is self evident what is being spoken of, and many instances of MEN DEPARTING are shown in the New Testament using this word. The problem with having an entrenched position on something is God can't teach us when we are locked in to our own beliefs. The Church and Israel being ONE is the biggest problem with many, they don't get that Israel we repent after the Rapture. 

Edited February 10, 2019 by Revelation Man

[Littlelambseativy]

I am so sorry that you interpreted what you read incorrectly. The Holy Spirit does not confuse anyone but enlightens. The Rapture is silent except to those left behind. Only those who are born again will hear the shout and trumpet. Jesus comes and meets us in the air... first the dead in Christ then those who are alive ( born again) will meet Him in the air. That is why  Jesus referred to His meeting us in the air as a thief in he night.....silent. This starts the Tribulation because the Holy Spirit is removed from earth. 

 This is not the Second coming. During the second coming His feet touch the earth on the Mount of Olives. There are only two comings one as an infant and the second as the Victor, the Lion of Judah, with angels and the saints following Him on white horses. This begins the Thousand year reign...millennium.

The Holy Spirit is taken out from the earth because He is the Restrainer and those left behind during the following 7 years will  have to revert to following the commandments to be found righteous. The Holy Spirit will not be here to indwell anyone. That is why there will be lawlessness. That is why it is better to be found His before theRapture. All before the Tribulation begins. ..a time like has not been seen before. That is why people will willingly accept the Mark of the Beast..

 

 

[JoeCanada]

1 hour ago, Littlelambseativy said:

I am so sorry that you interpreted what you read incorrectly. The Holy Spirit does not confuse anyone but enlightens. The Rapture is silent except to those left behind. Only those who are born again will hear the shout and trumpet. Jesus comes and meets us in the air... first the dead in Christ then those who are alive ( born again) will meet Him in the air. That is why  Jesus referred to His meeting us in the air as a thief in he night.....silent. This starts the Tribulation because the Holy Spirit is removed from earth. 

 This is not the Second coming. During the second coming His feet touch the earth on the Mount of Olives. There are only two comings one as an infant and the second as the Victor, the Lion of Judah, with angels and the saints following Him on white horses. This begins the Thousand year reign...millennium.

The Holy Spirit is taken out from the earth because He is the Restrainer and those left behind during the following 7 years will  have to revert to following the commandments to be found righteous. The Holy Spirit will not be here to indwell anyone. That is why there will be lawlessness. That is why it is better to be found His before theRapture. All before the Tribulation begins. ..a time like has not been seen before. That is why people will willingly accept the Mark of the Beast..

 

 

Hi LLamb,

There are 3 Gospel accounts telling us that at the return of Jesus, "all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory....and He will send forth His angels to gather together His elect....."

"Behold, He is coming with the clouds and every eye will see Him....even those who pierced Him, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him".... Rev 1:7

There is no secret rapture!

Jesus will come in Shekanah Glory. It will be a magnificent sight. 

"Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the Glory of our Great God and Savior, Christ Jesus"...Titus 2:13

You said...."will  have to revert to following the commandments to be found righteous."

You really don't believe this.....do you?

"by the works of the Law, no flesh will be justified in His sight."......Rom 3:20

I could present here much of the New Testament to add to it, but this scripture sums it all up.

If the delusion that is coming upon the whole world is so strong that , if it were possible, to deceive even the elect, what then of the unbelievers? They will surely crumble. Without the conviction of the Holy Spirit, they don't even have a chance. None!

 

 

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, Cletus said:

no.  pretrib is all I knew when i first got saved and started going to church.  one of the members was parroting what the pastor always said... we wont be here for that praise God... i said yeah and we shared a laugh as they announced service was about to begin... take your seats.... as i turned my spirit knotted up, i thought i sinned and i asked God what is it... what did i do so i can repent... i received unction to open my bible... my eyes fixed upon one line that totally debunked pretrib teaching.  i stood there confused because at that time i didnt even know mid or post trib teaching existed.  i was having a little prayer session and when i looked up everyone was staring at me to take my seat.  this i studied, prayerfully studied for over a decade more.  all of what i say was shown to me by The Holy Spirit thru His word.  there are no pretrib clues.  there are some pretrib mis-interpretations and false teachings. 

i see you were unable to provide where it says the seals are wrath.

 

For starters, if you allowed ONE VERSE to change your opinion on anything, that is not how God does things, He delivers His message via MANY VERSES, thus that is what "Line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little means". Any verse that the Post tribbers can put forth I can knock it down as per to why it doesn't really mean what they think. Satan comes as an Angel of light, have you ever heard that passage brother ? He never stops, so don't think Satan isn't trying to decieve. So they question is who is he deceiving ? NOT IF !! 

                                         The Rapture
What is it ? Who will it affect ? When is it most likely to take place ?
                                By Dr. David R. Reagan

The Rapture is a glorious event which God has promised to the Church.

The promise is that someday very soon, at the blowing of a trumpet and the shout of an archangel, Jesus will appear in the sky and take up His Church, living and dead, to Heaven.

The Term
The term “Rapture” comes from a Latin word, “rapio,” that means “to catch up, to snatch away, or to take out.” It is, in turn, a translation of the Greek word, “harpazo.”

So, “Rapture” is a Biblical word that comes right out of the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible. The word is found in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. In the New American Standard Version, the English phrase, “caught up,” is used. The same phrase is used in the King James and New International Versions.

A Promise to the Church
The concept of the Rapture was not revealed to the Old Testament prophets because it is a promise to the New Testament Church and not to the saints of God who lived before the establishment of the Church. Jesus will return as a bridegroom for His bride, and that bride consists only of Church Age saints.

The saints of Old Testament times will be resurrected at the end of the Tribulation and not at the time of the Rapture of the Church. Daniel reveals this fact in Daniel 12:1-2 where he says that the saints of that age will be resurrected at the end of the “time of distress.”

Biblical References
The first clear mention of the Rapture in Scripture is found in the words of Jesus recorded in John 14:1-4. Jesus said, “I will come again, and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.”

The most detailed revelation of the actual events related to the Rapture is given by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. He says that when Jesus appears, the dead in Christ (Church Age saints) will be resurrected and caught up first. Then, those of us who are alive in Christ will be translated “to meet the Lord in the air.”

Paul mentions the Rapture again in 1 Corinthians 15 — his famous chapter on the resurrection of the dead: “Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet” (verses 51-52).

Paul’s reference here to being changed is an allusion to the fact that the saints will receive glorified bodies that will be imperishable, immortal, and perfected (1 Corinthians 15:42-44, 50-55 and Isaiah 35:5-6).

A Summary
To summarize, these passages teach that the shout of an archangel and the blowing of a trumpet will herald the sudden appearance of Jesus in the heavens (1 Thessalonians 4:16). The dead in Christ will be resurrected and rise up to meet the Lord in the sky. Then, those saints who are alive will be “caught up” to the Lord. Paul concludes his description in 1 Thessalonians 4 by encouraging his readers to “comfort one another with these words.”

And truly the Rapture is a comforting thought! Consider the promises contained in the concept of the Rapture. Jesus will bring with Him the spirits of those who have died in Him (1 Thessalonians 4:14). He will resurrect their bodies in a great miracle of re-creation; He will reunite their bodies with their spirits; and He will then glorify their bodies, making them immortal. And those believers who are living will not even taste death. Rather, they will be caught up to the Lord, and in transit, they will be translated from mortal to immortal.

All my life I have heard that there are two things no one can avoid: taxes and death. Well, that is not true. According to 1 Thessalonians 4, a whole generation of believers will escape death. Taxes appear to be the only inevitability!

The Timing
The most controversial aspect of the Rapture is its timing. Some place it at the end of the Tribulation, making it one and the same event as the Second Coming. Others place it in the middle of the Tribulation. Still others believe that it will occur at the beginning of the Tribulation.

The reason for these differing viewpoints is that the exact time of the Rapture is not precisely revealed in scripture. It is only inferred. There is, therefore, room for honest differences of opinion, and lines of fellowship should certainly not be drawn over differences regarding this point, even though it is an important point.

Post-Tribulation Rapture
Those who place the timing at the end of the Tribulation usually base their argument on two parables in Matthew 13 and on the Lord’s Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24.

In Matthew 24 the Lord portrays His gathering of the saints as an event that will take place “immediately after the tribulation of those days” (Matthew 24:29). This certainly sounds like a post-Tribulation Rapture. But it must be kept in mind that the book of Matthew was written to the Jews, and therefore the recording of Jesus’ speech by Matthew has a distinctively Jewish flavor to it as compared to Luke’s record of the same speech.

Note, for example, Matthew’s references to Judea and to Jewish law regarding travel on the Sabbath (Matthew 24:15-20). These are omitted in Luke’s account. Instead, Luke speaks of the saints looking up for deliverance “to escape all these things” when the end time signs “begin to take place” (Luke 21:28, 36). The saints in Matthew are instructed to flee from Judea and hide. The saints in Luke are told to look up for deliverance.

It appears, therefore, that Matthew and Luke are speaking of two different sets of saints. The saints in Matthew’s account are most likely Jews who receive Jesus as their Messiah during the Tribulation. The saints in Luke are those who receive Christ before the Tribulation begins. Most of those who accept the Lord during the Tribulation will be martyred (Revelation 7:9-14). Those who live to the end will be gathered by the angels of the Lord (Matthew 24:31).

The parable of the wheat and tares (Matthew 13:24-30) and the parable of the dragnet (Matthew 13:47-50) can be explained in the same way. They refer to a separation of saints and sinners that will take place at the end of the Tribulation. The saints are those who receive Jesus as their Savior during the Tribulation (Gentile and Jew) and who live to the end of that awful period.

The Bible clearly teaches that the Rapture is an event that is separate and apart from the Second Coming. The two simply cannot be combined into one event.

Mid-Tribulation Rapture
There are variations of the mid-Tribulation Rapture concept. The most common is that the Church will be taken out in the exact middle of the Tribulation, at the point in time when the Antichrist is revealed.

This concept is based upon a statement in 1 Corinthians 15:52 which says that the Rapture will occur at the blowing of “the last trumpet.” This trumpet is then identified with the seventh trumpet of the trumpet judgments in the book of Revelation. Since the blowing of the seventh trumpet is recorded in Revelation 11, the mid-point of the Tribulation, the conclusion is that the Rapture must occur in the middle of the Tribulation.

But there are two problems with this interpretation. The first is that the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15 is blown for believers whereas the seven trumpets of Revelation 8, 9 and 11 are sounded for unbelievers. The Revelation trumpets have no relevance for the Church. The last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15 is a trumpet for the righteous. The last trumpet for the unrighteous is the one described in Revelation 11.

Another problem with this interpretation is that the passage in Revelation 11 that portrays the sounding of the seventh trumpet is a “flash forward” to the end of the Tribulation. Flash forwards are very common in the book of Revelation. They occur after something terrible is described in order to assure the reader that everything is going to turn out all right when Jesus returns at the end of the Tribulation.

Thus, the eighth and ninth chapters of Revelation, which describe the horrors of the trumpet judgments, are followed immediately by a flash forward in chapter 10 that pictures the return of Jesus in victory at the end of the Tribulation. The mid-Tribulation action resumes in chapter 11 with a description of the killing of the two great prophets of God by the Antichrist. Then, to offset that terrible event, we are presented with another flash forward, beginning with verse 15. The seventh trumpet is sounded and we find ourselves propelled forward to the end of the Tribulation when “the kingdom of the world becomes the kingdom of our Lord.”

The point is that the seventh trumpet of Revelation relates to the end of the Tribulation and not the middle. It is the same trumpet that is referred to in Matthew 24:31, the trumpet that will be blown to announce the Second Coming of Jesus. It is therefore no basis for an argument in behalf of a mid-Tribulation Rapture.

Pre-Wrath Rapture
A variation of the mid-Tribulation Rapture is the pre-wrath Rapture concept that places the Rapture at some point in the last quarter of the Tribulation, about five and a half years into the Tribulation.

The argument for this view is that the Church is promised protection only from the wrath of God and not the wrath of Man or of Satan. It is then argued that only the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments constitute the wrath of God, and these are placed in the last quarter of the Tribulation, despite the fact that the book of Revelation clearly places the Trumpet Judgments in the first half of the Tribulation. They maintain that the Seal Judgments are the wrath of Man and Satan.

This view disintegrates when you consider the fact that it is Jesus Himself who breaks the seals that launch each of the Seal Judgments recorded in Revelation 6. These judgments occur at the beginning of the Tribulation, and they are referred to as “the wrath of the Lamb” (Revelation 6:16).

All the judgments of Revelation are clearly superintended by God. That is the reason we are told in Revelation 15:1 that the Bowl Judgments at the end of the Tribulation will finish the wrath of God, not begin His wrath.

The Pre-Tribulation Rapture
I believe the best inference of Scripture is that the Rapture will occur at the beginning of the Tribulation. The most important reason I believe this has to do with the issue of imminence.

Over and over in Scripture we are told to watch for the appearing of the Lord. We are told “to be ready” (Matthew 24:44), “to be on the alert” (Matthew 24:42), “to be dressed in readiness” (Luke 12:35), and to “keep your lamps alight” (Luke 12:35). The clear force of these persistent warnings is that Jesus can appear at any moment.

Only the pre-Tribulation concept of the Rapture allows for the imminence of the Lord’s appearing for His Church. When the Rapture is placed at any other point in time, the imminence of the Lord’s appearing is destroyed because other prophetic events must happen first.

For example, if the Rapture is going to occur in mid-Tribulation, then why should I live looking for the Lord’s appearing at any moment? I would be looking instead for an Israeli peace treaty, the rebuilding of the Temple, and the revelation of the Antichrist. Then and only then could the Lord appear.

Focus
This raises the issue of what we are to be looking for. Nowhere are believers told to watch for the appearance of the Antichrist. On the contrary, we are told to watch for Jesus Christ. In Titus 2:13 Paul says we are to live “looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.” Likewise, Peter urges us to “fix our hope completely on the grace to be brought to us at the revelation of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 1:13). John completes the apostolic chorus by similarly urging us to “fix our hope on Him” at His appearing (1 John 3:2-3).

Only Matthew speaks of watching for the Antichrist (Matthew 24:15), but he is speaking to the Jews living in Israel in the middle of the Tribulation when the Antichrist desecrates the rebuilt Temple.

Wrath
Another argument in behalf of a pre-Tribulation Rapture has to do with the promises of God to protect the Church from His wrath. As has already been demonstrated, the book of Revelation shows that the wrath of God will be poured out during the entire period of the Tribulation.

The Word promises over and over that the Church will be delivered from God’s wrath. Romans 5:9 says that “we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him [Jesus].” 1 Thessalonians 1:10 states that we are waiting “for His Son from heaven… who will deliver us from the wrath to come.” The promise is repeated in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 — “God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Deliverance
Some argue that God could supernaturally protect the Church during the Tribulation. Yes, He could. In fact, He promises to do just that for the 144,000 Jews who will be sealed as bond-servants at the beginning of the Tribulation (Revelation 7:1-8).

But God’s promise to the Church during the Tribulation is not one of protection but one of deliverance. Jesus said we would “escape” the horrors of the Tribulation (Luke 21:3-6). Paul says Jesus is coming to “deliver” us from God’s wrath (1 Thessalonians 1:10).

Symbolism
There are several prophetic types that seem to affirm the concept of deliverance from Tribulation.

Take Enoch for example. He was a prophet to the Gentiles who was raptured out of the world before God poured out His wrath in the great flood of Noah’s time. Enoch appears to be a type of the Gentile Church that will be taken out of the world before God pours out His wrath again. If so, then Noah and his family are a type of the Jewish remnant that will be protected through the Tribulation.

Another Old Testament symbolic type which points toward a pre-Tribulation Rapture is the experience of Lot and his family. They were delivered out of Sodom and Gomorrah before those cities were destroyed.

The Apostle Peter alludes to both of these examples in his second epistle. He states that if God spared Noah and Lot, then He surely “knows how to rescue the godly from trial and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment” (2 Peter 2:4-9).

Another beautiful prophetic type is to be found in the Jewish wedding traditions of Jesus’ time. After the betrothal, the groom would return to his father’s house to prepare a wedding chamber for his bride. He would return for his bride at an unexpected moment, so the bride had to be ready constantly. When he returned, he would take his bride back to his father’s house to the chamber he had prepared. He and his bride would then be sealed in the chamber for seven days. When they emerged, a great wedding feast would be celebrated.

Likewise, Jesus has returned to Heaven to prepare a place for His bride, the Church. When He returns for His bride, He will take her to His Father’s heavenly home. There He will remain with His bride for seven years (the duration of the Tribulation). The period will end with “the marriage supper of the Lamb” described in Revelation 19. Thus the seven days in the wedding chamber point prophetically to the seven years that Jesus and His bride will remain in Heaven during the Tribulation.

Revelation
Speaking of Revelation, the structure of that book also implies a pre-Tribulation Rapture in a symbolic sense.

The first three chapters focus on the Church. Chapter 4 begins with the door of Heaven opening and John being raptured from the Isle of Patmos to the throne of God in Heaven. The Church is not mentioned thereafter until Revelation 19:7-9 when it is portrayed as the “bride of Christ” in Heaven with Jesus celebrating the “marriage supper of the Lamb.” At Revelation 19:11 the door of Heaven opens again, and Jesus emerges riding a white horse on His way to earth, followed by His Church (Revelation 19:14).

The rapture of the Apostle John in Revelation 4 appears to be a symbolic type of the Rapture of the Church. Note that it is initiated by the cry of a voice that sounds like the blowing of a trumpet (Revelation 4:1). Since the Tribulation does not begin until Revelation 6, the rapture of John in Revelation 4 appears to be a symbolic type that points to a pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church.

Some counter this argument by pointing out that although the Church is not mentioned in Revelation during that book’s description of the Tribulation, there is constant mention of “saints” (for example, Revelation 13:7). But that term is not used in the Bible exclusively to refer to members of the Church. Daniel uses it to refer to Old Testament believers who lived long before the Church was established (Daniel 7:18). The saints referred to in the book of Revelation are most likely those people who will be saved during the Tribulation, after the Church has been taken out of the world.

Paul’s Assurance
An interesting argument in behalf of the pre-Tribulation timing of the Rapture can be found in 2 Thessalonians. The church at Thessalonica was in a turmoil because someone had written them a letter under Paul’s name stating that they had missed the “gathering to the Lord” and were, in fact, living in “the day of the Lord” (2 Thessalonians 2:1-2).

Paul attempted to calm them down by reminding them of his teaching that the day of the Lord would not come until after the Antichrist is revealed. He then stated that the Antichrist would not be revealed until a restraining force “is taken out of the way” (2 Thessalonians 2:3-7).

There has been much speculation as to the identity of this restraining force that Paul refers to. Some have identified it as the Holy Spirit. But it cannot be the Holy Spirit because there will be people saved during the Tribulation, and no one can be saved apart from the testimony of the Spirit (John 16:8-11 & 1 John 5:7).

Others have identified the restrainer as human government. It is true that government was ordained by God to restrain evil (Romans 13:1-4). But the governments of the world are in rebellion against God and His Son (Psalm 2), and they are therefore a contributor to the evil that characterizes the world. Furthermore, the Tribulation will not be characterized by a lack of government. Rather, it will feature the first true worldwide government (Revelation 13:7).

In my opinion that leaves only one other candidate for Paul’s restrainer — and that is the Church. It is the Church that serves as the primary restrainer of evil in the world today as it proclaims the Gospel and stands for righteousness. When the Church fails in this mission, evil multiplies, as Paul graphically points out in 2 Timothy 3:1-5. Paul says that society in the end times will be characterized by chaos and despair because “men will hold to a form of religion but will deny its power.” When the Church is removed from the world, all hell will literally break loose.

Escapism ?
The pre-Tribulation concept of the Rapture has often been condemned as “escapism.” I think this criticism is unjustified. The Bible itself says that Christians are to “comfort one another” with the thought of the Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:18). Is it a comfort to think of the Rapture occurring at the end of the world’s worst period of war instead of at the beginning?

Regardless of when the Rapture actually occurs, we need to keep in mind that the Bible teaches that societal conditions are going to grow increasingly worse the closer we get to the Lord’s return. That means Christians will suffer tribulation whether or not they go into the Great Tribulation. And that means all of us had better be preparing ourselves for unprecedented suffering and spiritual warfare.

If you are a Christian, you can do that on a daily basis by putting on “the full armor of God” (Ephesians 6:13), praying at all times in the Spirit that you will be able to stand firm against the attacks of Satan (Ephesians 6:14-18).

If you are not a Christian, your only hope is to reach out in faith and receive the free gift of God’s salvation which He has provided through His Son, Jesus (John 3:16).

 

[Mal'ak]

1 hour ago, Littlelambseativy said:

I am so sorry that you interpreted what you read incorrectly. The Holy Spirit does not confuse anyone but enlightens. The Rapture is silent except to those left behind. Only those who are born again will hear the shout and trumpet. Jesus comes and meets us in the air... first the dead in Christ then those who are alive ( born again) will meet Him in the air. That is why  Jesus referred to His meeting us in the air as a thief in he night.....silent. This starts the Tribulation because the Holy Spirit is removed from earth. 

 This is not the Second coming. During the second coming His feet touch the earth on the Mount of Olives. There are only two comings one as an infant and the second as the Victor, the Lion of Judah, with angels and the saints following Him on white horses. This begins the Thousand year reign...millennium.

The Holy Spirit is taken out from the earth because He is the Restrainer and those left behind during the following 7 years will  have to revert to following the commandments to be found righteous. The Holy Spirit will not be here to indwell anyone. That is why there will be lawlessness. That is why it is better to be found His before theRapture. All before the Tribulation begins. ..a time like has not been seen before. That is why people will willingly accept the Mark of the Beast..

 

 

A lot of what you said is very wrong Littlelamb, not to belittle your beliefs, but as a statement of fact.  We can break down what Jesus says himself, to explain it as my words means nothing.

 

Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

 

The beginning of sorrows is the beginning of the tribulation, and from the start Jesus himself says that Christians will be delivered up for his name's sake.  It is for his name's sake so would not be the non-believers, so much be Christians here on Earth during the tribulation. 

Second Witness: Revelation 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

 

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

Mid way through the Tribulation, satan will be kicked out of Heaven and with him he will bring his host of Angels and Hell.  He knows he only has a short time before Jesus returns, so he quickly goes after the Christians on Earth.  He will try to spiritual kill the Christians like the false prophet and his kingdom already setup on Earth (beast) have already been doing while he was still in Heaven, but now he will come down to join them and make it even harder.  The Father made this time even shorter, saying that if he lasted much longer hardly any Christian would be able to endure it.

Second Witness: Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

From Jesus' own words, the gathering of the Christians you spoke of happening before Jesus returns is in fact happening at the same time.  Jesus will return and start the thousand year reign, and his first act when he returns is to have the angels gather up the chosen to him.  The words can not be any clearer "Immediately after the Tribulation", and these are Jesus' words.

Second Witness: Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

 

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

 

The two Witnesses prove that the Holy Spirit will still be on Earth, they are the two groups of Christians captured by satan and will testify with the power of God.

 

[Mal'ak]

38 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Revelation

Speaking of Revelation, the structure of that book also implies a pre-Tribulation Rapture in a symbolic sense.

The first three chapters focus on the Church. Chapter 4 begins with the door of Heaven opening and John being raptured from the Isle of Patmos to the throne of God in Heaven. The Church is not mentioned thereafter until Revelation 19:7-9 when it is portrayed as the “bride of Christ” in Heaven with Jesus celebrating the “marriage supper of the Lamb.” At Revelation 19:11 the door of Heaven opens again, and Jesus emerges riding a white horse on His way to earth, followed by His Church (Revelation 19:14). 

There is a lot I could break down in your post, but this one part did get my attention.  In Revelation 19:14 it does not say "church", it said the "armies of Heaven".  Not to say there is a difference, but the line of reasoning that the Church of Christ is something different then the saints on Earth during the Tribulation is clearly not there.  There are those in Heaven that will come when Jesus returns, they are the Christians/Church/Saints that have already died.  Everyone in Heaven will follow Jesus when he returns, so the Christians from 356 AD and the Christians from 1923 AD.

 

Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

 

As we know from the Word of God, the Church of Christ are all those that follow him, so Christians.  There are seven "Churches" mentioned in Revelation, and they are all talked about as John is brought to the "Lord's day", so John is brought to the future during the Tribulation to view what will happen and while he is there he sees the seven churches.  If you go into detail, all of them are doing wrong but two, and those that are doing wrong are told to repent.  The two Churches that are doing God's will are Smyrna and Philadelphia (these are spiritual names for spiritual Christians groups, not some specific church in history as they are talked about in the Lord's day), Smyrna will be in tribulation for sure as they will be "cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried".  Some will point out Philadelphia and say they are the raptured Christians, because God said he will "keep" them from the hour of Temptation.  But if you look at the Greek meaning, it means "Guard". We see else where in Revelation where the saints are guarded with the "seal of God", Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. So all Christians alive will be going through the tribulation, just those that obey God's Word in regards to what we are suppose to do during the end times will be guarded while other Christians will be tried and have to prove themselves.

 

"Keep": τηρέω tēréō, tay-reh'-o; from τερός terós (a watch; perhaps akin to G2334); to guard (from loss or injury, properly, by keeping the eye upon; 

[JoeCanada]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

 

                                         The Rapture
What is it ? Who will it affect ? When is it most likely to take place ?
                                By Dr. David R. Reagan

 

 

Hi RM, 

I don't know why anyone would ascribe to the teachings of David Reagan. 

Here are just a few clips:

 

-Dr. David Reagan is an avowed annihilationist, a false teacher who rejects eternal hell and denies what the Scriptures clearly teach:—namely, that for those who worship the Antichrist and take the Mark of the Beast, the "smoke of their torment" in hell shall go up εἰς αἰῶνας αἰώνων "for ever and ever" (Revelation 14: 9-11). In his thinking, no such place as eternal hell  exists. 

-Such fanciful nonsense, would include Tim LaHaye's & Thomas Ice's stated position that the Great Apostasy in 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2 is not a great End Times falling away from the Faith, but is rather the Rapture itself!  This claim; based neither or context or co-text, is a pseudo-exegetical folly that was never believed by traditional pretribulational brethren, and now another notion being propagated by Tim La Haye is that the Rapture will trigger a great revival; this stands in diametric contrast to the traditional pretribulational plea not to miss the Rapture; 'I wish we had all been ready'. At their pretribulational conference, the key pretribulational debater Dr. Mark Hitchcock, admitted that if 2 Thessalonians meant what Thomas Ice and Tim L Haye are now teaching, the term would have been 'Harpazo' not 'Apostasia'. The fact is, that pretribulationists are now a very divided camp,—divided against each other. Thomas Ice has attacked David Reagan as having an "inconsistent eschatology". The David Reagans and Thomas Ices of the Pretrib cadre are not simply attacking non-pretribulationists now, but they are actively turning on each other. They are truly a 'house divided' and losing ground quickly to alternate positions.

-We have warned repeatedly that: David Reagan's annihilationism; Thomas Ice's contention that the Great Apostasy is the Rapture and not a great falling away; and John Mac Arthur's position (supported by other Pretribulationists such as Phil Johnson, Jimmy De Young, and Brannon House) that it will be possible to take the Mark of the Beast, worship the Antichrist and yet still be saved,—are doctrines of demons that are dangerous and false.

                                                     -----------------------------

 It is time for a meeting of the sane. In Acts 15 the issues that first council confronted were as divisive and theologically complex as almost any issue, with rival opinions -but not rival factions (such as Judaizers etc.). They sought  The Lord and were given the right course of action by the Holy Spirit. God placed the Apostolic record of Acts 15 in His Word for a reason, and in large part that reason is to provide a guideline for us. Let us ignore the factions ,and assemble as brethren, seeking the Lord's Wisdom, not our own. It is the only scriptural way to resolve this. If there was ever a time to remove heretical factions as per 1 Corinthians 11 it is indeed now. But co-equally, if there was ever a time for unity of the Spirit among non-heretics it is now.

https://www.moriel.org/component/k2/item/2632-a-response-to-david-reagan-s-in-defense-of-the-pre–tribulation-rapture-and-an-appeal-to-my-traditional-pre-tribulational-brethren.html

[JoeCanada]

3 hours ago, Mal'ak said:

 

 

Hi M, 

Welcome to worthy!

And welcome to the debate. 

[OldCoot]

2 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

We have warned repeatedly that: David Reagan's annihilationism; Thomas Ice's contention that the Great Apostasy is the Rapture and not a great falling away; and John Mac Arthur's position (supported by other Pretribulationists such as Phil Johnson, Jimmy De Young, and Brannon House) that it will be possible to take the Mark of the Beast, worship the Antichrist and yet still be saved,—are doctrines of demons that are dangerous and false.

 

That is really taking a lot of theologic license, which is outside your pay grade.   Who set you up as the almighty standard of truth in these matters?   The only reasonable assertion regarding "doctrine of demons" is that which rejects the Messiah and core doctrines that surround the Messiah, like his Sonship in relation to the Father, His being coequal in the Godhead with the Father and the Holy Spirit, His being born of a virgin of the Tribe of Judah as promised, His death, burial, and resurrection as the atonement of man, etc.    These topics regarding the end times are not in the same category and using terms like "doctrines of demons" has the only purpose of shutting down meaningful dialogue and marginalizing the participants.  I am comfortable in saying this.... it is sin against the brethren.  

Some of these end times ideas may be in error, but that doesn't mean the concept is doctrinally evil in nature or the individuals who espouse them are acting out of evil malice trying to discredit the truth.  And anyone on either side of the issue using the similar tactics as political attacks in the secular world is acting just like those in the world would act.  And we are commanded to be of a separate mind than those in the world.

But it is to be expected in this day.  If one happens to disagree with someone they are either a racist, homophobe, bigot, etc.  So now we have come to the point where anyone who might theologically disagree on a nonessential topic in terms of justification and sanctification, and through their own study has arrived at a different conclusion regarding the end times is now espousing doctrine of demons.  

Well, seems that we have a long way to go.  We seem to be a long way from "they will know us by our love for one another".

Edited February 10, 2019 by OldCoot