Why Pretrib Logic Fails

[JoeCanada]

6 hours ago, Littlelambseativy said:

I am so sorry that you interpreted what you read incorrectly. The Holy Spirit does not confuse anyone but enlightens. The Rapture is silent except to those left behind. Only those who are born again will hear the shout and trumpet. Jesus comes and meets us in the air... first the dead in Christ then those who are alive ( born again) will meet Him in the air. That is why  Jesus referred to His meeting us in the air as a thief in he night.....silent. This starts the Tribulation because the Holy Spirit is removed from earth. 

 This is not the Second coming. During the second coming His feet touch the earth on the Mount of Olives. There are only two comings one as an infant and the second as the Victor, the Lion of Judah, with angels and the saints following Him on white horses. This begins the Thousand year reign...millennium.

The Holy Spirit is taken out from the earth because He is the Restrainer and those left behind during the following 7 years will  have to revert to following the commandments to be found righteous. The Holy Spirit will not be here to indwell anyone. That is why there will be lawlessness. That is why it is better to be found His before theRapture. All before the Tribulation begins. ..a time like has not been seen before. That is why people will willingly accept the Mark of the Beast..

 

 

Hi LL,

That is why  Jesus referred to His meeting us in the air as a thief in he night.....silent.

Not sure where you found a scripture that says that Jesus referred to His meeting us in the air as a thief in the night....silent.

It will be anything but silent. 1 Thes 4:16:

¹⁶ For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a ^[a]shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

His voice will command all those in the grave to rise. (the righteous) His voice will reverberate through the whole universe. Then the blast of a trumpet. 

Here are the scriptures that do refer to Him coming "like a thief":

 

Revelation 16:15 English Standard Version (ESV)

¹⁵ (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”)

 

Matthew 24:43 English Standard Version (ESV)

⁴³ But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into.

 

1 Thessalonians 5:2 English Standard Version (ESV)

² For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

 

1 Thessalonians 5:4 English Standard Version (ESV)

⁴ But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.

 

2 Peter 3:10 English Standard Version (ESV)

¹⁰ But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies^[a] will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.^[b]

Now look at 1 Thes 5:1-4:

1 Thessalonians 5:1-4 English Standard Version (ESV)

The Day of the Lord

5 Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers,^[a] you have no need to have anything written to you. ² For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. ³ While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. ⁴ But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief."

It is not the believers that will be in darkness, but the unbelievers. Paul tells us that we are not in darkness for that day to surprise us like a thief.  The "Day of the Lord" will come "like a thief in the night" to the unbelievers only.  The Day of the Lord, the Day of God's wrath upon all the unbelievers and sinners, will happen after the celestial/terrestrial disturbances (Joel 2:30-31)   after the resurrection and rapture of all the saints.

The Great Tribulation, the celestial/terrestrial signs, the resurrection/rapture, the Day (year) of the Lord. In that order.

Isaiah tells us in Isaiah vs 34:8, 61:2, and 63:4......that the Day of the Lord will last approx 1 year.

""For the day of vengeance (wrath) was in my heart, and My year of redemption has come"

"To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord, and the Day of vengeance (wrath) of our God"

"For the Lord has a Day of vengeance (wrath), a year of recompense for the cause of Zion"

I don't see anywhere in all of scripture that says the Day of the Lord is 7 years long. (pre-trib speculation). The only way to come up with this is to equate the entire 70th week of Daniel as the Day of the Lord. (which pre-trib does) There is no 7 year Great Tribulation. Not to be found!

 

[JoeCanada]

56 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

That is really taking a lot of theologic license, which is outside your pay grade.   Who set you up as the almighty standard of truth in these matters?   The only reasonable assertion regarding "doctrine of demons" is that which rejects the Messiah and core doctrines that surround the Messiah, like his Sonship in relation to the Father, His being coequal in the Godhead with the Father and the Holy Spirit, His being born of a virgin of the Tribe of Judah as promised, His death, burial, and resurrection as the atonement of man, etc.    These topics regarding the end times are not in the same category and using terms like "doctrines of demons" has the only purpose of shutting down meaningful dialogue and marginalizing the participants.  I am comfortable in saying this.... it is sin against the brethren.  

Some of these end times ideas may be in error, but that doesn't mean the concept is doctrinally evil in nature or the individuals who espouse them are acting out of evil malice trying to discredit the truth.  And anyone on either side of the issue using the similar tactics as political attacks in the secular world is acting just like those in the world would act.  And we are commanded to be of a separate mind than those in the world.

But it is to be expected in this day.  If one happens to disagree with someone they are either a racist, homophobe, bigot, etc.  So now we have come to the point where anyone who might theologically disagree on a nonessential topic in terms of justification and sanctification, and through their own study has arrived at a different conclusion regarding the end times is now espousing doctrine of demons.  

Well, seems that we have a long way to go.  We seem to be a long way from "they will know us by our love for one another".

Hi OC,

Hey, you don't know what my pay grade is. (humor)

I was merely quoting an article. 

And I whole heartily agree with the last point:

"John Mac Arthur's position (supported by other Pretribulationists such as Phil Johnson, Jimmy De Young, and Brannon House) that it will be possible to take the Mark of the Beast, worship the Antichrist and yet still be saved,—are doctrines of demons that are dangerous and false.

If that's not a "doctrine of demons" then I don't know what is. Jesus strongly warns us about taking this mark, that anyone who does so will damn their souls for eternity. This is an extremely dangerous/damning teaching. 

John Mac Arthur and his band of merry men are False Teachers of the worst kind.

Whatever a person believes about the rapture, whether pre, mid, post, prewrath......these are not salvation issues.

 

[OldCoot]

23 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi OC,

Hey, you don't know what my pay grade is. (humor)

I was merely quoting an article. 

And I whole heartily agree with the last point:

"John Mac Arthur's position (supported by other Pretribulationists such as Phil Johnson, Jimmy De Young, and Brannon House) that it will be possible to take the Mark of the Beast, worship the Antichrist and yet still be saved,—are doctrines of demons that are dangerous and false.

If that's not a "doctrine of demons" then I don't know what is. Jesus strongly warns us about taking this mark, that anyone who does so will damn their souls for eternity. This is an extremely dangerous/damning teaching. 

John Mac Arthur and his band of merry men are False Teachers of the worst kind.

Whatever a person believes about the rapture, whether pre, mid, post, prewrath......these are not salvation issues.

 

But I think the debate centers around what the mark is.  I do concur that on the surface, to take the mark is a deal killer and not sure one can get out of that.  But without really knowing what that mark actually is, we cannot know for certain if one can have a change of heart and get out of it.  Only death seals the final result.  I am also not certain that those guys were speaking about those who already are part of the redeemed, but likely referring to those that are not part of the redeemed going into that.  

I am solidly pre-trib, and I wouldn't agree on the surface to what you quoted from those guys.  I would have to look deeper into the context of what they were saying.  And my take on the "mark" is not what most would go with. I think it is a genetic marker that will alter the DNA as such so that the person who takes that will no longer qualify as a human which can be redeemed.  A bit of a stretch to some, I have no doubt.  But given where we are in technology, and that the world system is going to be under unlimited control by a psychotic super Cherub,   It would be silly of any of us to impose technology constraints.

And if it is a genetic marker that alters DNA, I am not convinced that anyone who takes the mark will have any desire to turn from that choice.

There are many aspects to all of this that I am not certain we will fully understand until after the fact.   I really don't worry about any of it.  It is just interesting for debate purposes.   I don't plan to be around when it all goes down, and even if I wrong about that, I know in whom I have placed my trust.  To take the mark or take death.  Wow, that is a soft ball choice.   Far easier than confronting death when I was a youngster in the Army, and I didn't shirk from my duty then.  And it was secular.

I think many folks just put too much stock in stuff like this and lose the main focus of Yeshua.  If one keeps their eyes on the prize, it is hard to be scammed.  And I tend to question if one gets their panties so in a wad over what someone else thinks about these future issues, they need to really question who it is they have placed their trust.  Those that have been redeemed and sealed by the HS have not been given a spirit of fear.

Edited February 10, 2019 by OldCoot
Spelling

[Steve Conley]

18 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Let's check out your sound exegesis: The Greek word behind "at hand" was translated as follows:

present (3x), things present (2x), be at hand (1x),

In other words, "present" was the preferred translation.

"That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. "

The truth is, they WERE troubled: they were under severe persecution and then somehow they heard that THE DAY had already started and they were IN IT.  Some Greek manuscripts say Day of the Lord, and others say Day of Christ. Since in Paul's first letter he used "day of the Lord," I think it is probably what Paul wrote. Anyway, since Christ IS Lord, I think Paul is talking about the Day of the Lord mentioned many times in the Old Testament: the dark day where God destroys the world and the sinners in the world. 

If Paul had taught them of a posttrib rapture, and they thought they were IN the trib, why on earth would they be troubled by the news? They would know they just had to wait out the rest of the 7 years. In other words, if Paul had taught them a post trib rapture - then this text makes NO SENSE.

On the other hand, if Paul had taught them that the rapture would come before the Day of the Lord, and then they heard they were IN the day of the Lord, it is easy to see why they were troubled: either Paul was wrong or they had MISSED the rapture. 

Therefore in this case a pretrib rapture fits the text far better than any other time of the rapture.

Why set up a strawman? Who ever said the rapture would be "secret?" There will be a loud trumpet sound, then a loud shout of our Lord. I suspect the world will hear these things but not know what they are hearing.  However, I do suspect that it will pretty much be invisible: the moment we are changed, perhaps we disappear. John does not tell us so we cannot know for sure. 

Such a pre-trib rapture has no support from the text   I guess just good exegesis is not enough: you have to add such nonsense as this to make your point. A better way to make your point would be to say "I can find no textual support for a pretrib rapture."  I could say exactly the same: I can find no textual support for a posttrib rapture. Let's just quit with the pokes and jabs and teach scripture as we understand it: will you agree?

What do you mean by "the trib?" Do you mean the 70th week of Daniel? 

The pretrib rapture IS supported by 1 Thes. chapter 5 and by Revelation showing the great crowd, too large to number, in heaven before John has started the 70th week. 

The pretrib is further supported by the marriage and supper IN HEAVEN before Christ descends to earth to the Battle of Armageddon.  This text also destroys a post trib rapture.

The pretrib rapture is further supported by 2 thes 2, correctly understood. 

As you say, Glory be to the wonderful name of Jesus!

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Mr. Mad, First let me say that the timing for the rapture being after the great tribulation but before the wrath of God is poured out in the day of the Lord is well established from a great number of texts. No eschatological teaching that I hold is determined by the proper interpretation of what was meant by Paul's use of en-is'-tay-mee at the end of 2Thes 2:2. However, the Scripture testifying that the appearing of Christ for His saints follows the great tribulation is a certainty that informs us about what Paul initialy taught the Thessalonians concerning Christ's return. When we know Paul's teaching concerning the events that will precede the parousia of Christ it is easy to see how the Thessalonians thought the severe persecution that they were facing was the great tribulation.

The choice of "at hand" (its meaning in that day being near in time or distance) for the English translation of en-is'-tay-mee tells us what the translators believed Paul was trying to communicate. At hand fit properly with the context of the Thessalonians being in distress thinking that they were going through the great tribulation. Jesus taught that the unprecedented persecution precedes His return. Only after the great tribulation begins will it be so that the parousia (coming) of Christ and our gathering to Him will be near in time. The great tribulation begins when the man of sin is revealed in the temple shewing himself to be God after which there will be a notable falling away. These are the conditions that Paul says must be met before the day of Christ will be near in time.

Mr. Mad, it appears that I have caught you being deceptive by ommiting information which speaks contrary to your idea of the meaning of (en-is'-tay-mee) which is translated at hand. You conveniently left out Paul's use of the word to Timothy. Here Paul uses ἐνστήσονται translated "shall come". A. T. Robertson (Possibly the most respected NT Greek Schollar of our time) says concerning it: "Future middle of enistēmi (intransitive use), old verb, to stand on or be at hand, as in 2Th 2:2." He further says concerning the use of en-is'-tay-mee in 2Thes 2:2: "Perfect active indicative of enistēmi, old verb, to place in, but intransitive in this tense to stand in or at or near. So “is imminent” (Lightfoot)."

2Ti 3:1  This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

You're free to believe what you want, but indeed, the Thessalonians, according to Paul's teachings, believed that the GT would come before the day of Christ. Paul was saying that they were not in the great tribulation, the period of time in which the day of Christ will be at hand.

Man's definition of the trib - The trib is a seven year period in which God's wrath will be poured out upon the earth. This seven year period is said to be the day of the Lord. In this period God uses the Beast as an instrument of His wrath. The last 3.5 years contains the most severe portion of God's wrath and is called the great tribulation.

Bible definition of tribulation - The pressure associated with being persecuted for Jesus sake, experiencing God's vengeance in the day of the Lord, or experiencing the hardships common to man. The context determines which it is.

Bible definition of the great tribulation - The unprecedented period of violent persecution of the elect by the Beast and his followers which begins ~3.5 years before Christ's millenial kingdom is set up. It begins with the abomination of desolation which is the defiling of the Jewish Temple by the man of sin. It results in a notable falling away (many shall be offended). It is accompanied by lying signs and wonders. It is cut short to keep some of the elect alive upon the earth. The cosmic which announces Christ's return signals that it is over. The length is unspecified which keeps us from knowing the day or hour of Christ's return. Daniel called it an unprecedented time of trouble. Jeremiah called it Jacob's trouble. Out of it shall the innumerable multitude of Rev 7 come.

Glory be to Jesus Christ

[Revelation Man]

13 hours ago, Mal'ak said:

There is a lot I could break down in your post, but this one part did get my attention.  In Revelation 19:14 it does not say "church", it said the "armies of Heave

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

n".  Not to say there is a difference, but the line of reasoning that the Church of Christ is something different then the saints on Earth during the Tribulation is clearly not there.  There are those in Heaven that will come when Jesus returns, they are the Christians/Church/Saints that have already died.  Everyone in Heaven will follow Jesus when he returns, so the Christians from 356 AD and the Christians from 1923 AD.

Well you broke this down wrong brother, I don't just say things without knowing the facts thereof. The Bible INTERPRETS ITSELF in most cases.

Rev. 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself {CHURCH} ready. 8 And to her {CHURCH} was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Rev. 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. {CHURCH}

We are told who the Church is in verse 8, then we are told who the Armies are in verse 14, they are Clothed in Fine Linen, Clean and White = The Church !!

We go to the Marriage Supper with Jesus, which is Armageddon !! {Matt. 24:28, the eagles will be where the Carcass is at} We see the FOWLS of Rev. 19 devours the flesh of men at Armageddon !! Metaphorically speaking, thus this is the Marriage Super. 

You just don't see what you don't want to see it seems brother, that is called tunnel vision. Rev. 19 clearly says the Marriage of the Lamb HAS COME !! We also see the 24 Elders in Rev. 4:4 who have the EXACT THINGS PROMISED to the 7 Churches...

Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

The Rewards promised to the Seven Churches are given unto the 24 Elders in Rev. 4:4.

* A Crown - ( Rev. 2:10, 3:11, 4:4 and 4:10 )

* A Throne - ( Rev. 3:21 and 4:4 )

* A White Robe - ( Rev. 3:4-5 and Rev. 4:4 )

As per the 24 Elders meaning ? or why 24 Elders !! Well this fits 1 Chronicles 24:7-19 where we are told there are 24 orders of priests.

So the Church is in Heaven before the Seals are opened, thus the Rapture happens before the Seals are opened !! John saw them in Rev. chapters 4 and 5, the Elders are not in Heaven having married the Lamb without the Church also being there, there is just ONE MARRIAGE !! 

13 hours ago, Mal'ak said:

As we know from the Word of God, the Church of Christ are all those that follow him, so Christians.  There are seven "Churches" mentioned in Revelation, and they are all talked about as John is brought to the "Lord's day", so John is brought to the future during the Tribulation to view what will happen and while he is there he sees the seven churches.  If you go into detail, all of them are doing wrong but two, and those that are doing wrong are told to repent.  The two Churches that are doing God's will are Smyrna and Philadelphia (these are spiritual names for spiritual Christians groups, not some specific church in history as they are talked about in the Lord's day), Smyrna will be in tribulation for sure as they will be "cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried".  Some will point out Philadelphia and say they are the raptured Christians, because God said he will "keep" them from the hour of Temptation.  But if you look at the Greek meaning, it means "Guard". We see else where in Revelation where the saints are guarded with the "seal of God", Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. So all Christians alive will be going through the tribulation, just those that obey God's Word in regards to what we are suppose to do during the end times will be guarded while other Christians will be tried and have to prove themselves.

The Churches are the Church age, the Tribulation is after the Church Age. Those sealed in the foreheads are the 144,000 Jews which are really just ALL THE JEWS who repented {1/3 or 2 to 3 million Jews maybe even 5 million Jews if they all move to Israel} as Zechariah 13:8-9 tells us. 2/3 do not repent and thus they will perish. The Saints are the Jews whom God protects in Petra/Bozrah and the Gentiles who repent AFTER the Rapture better known as the Remnant Church {Rev. 12:17}. The Remnant Gentiles are the Martyrs under the Altar at the 5th Seal. 

You better not breakdown the other part of the post brother, there are no weaknesses in my Eschatology. I follow the Holy Spirit in all things. 

God Bless.

 

 

Edited February 11, 2019 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

13 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi RM, 

I don't know why anyone would ascribe to the teachings of David Reagan. 

Here are just a few clips:

 

-Dr. David Reagan is an avowed annihilationist, a false teacher who rejects eternal hell and denies what the Scriptures clearly teach:—namely, that for those who worship the Antichrist and take the Mark of the Beast, the "smoke of their torment" in hell shall go up εἰς αἰῶνας αἰώνων "for ever and ever" (Revelation 14: 9-11). In his thinking, no such place as eternal hell  exists. 

I notice you never want to answer the pointed questions, you just try to attack a "SUB-SET" someone has that may or may not be right. Your Tribulation belief is wrong in my eyes, but I am not going to go around attacking you for that belief brother, just challenging your views point by point in a retort of sorts. Sometimes I get the same treatment, like Babel man, what is it about you post tribbers that make you not want to discuss the facts point by point, I am not claiming per se you attack like that, but you do often try to avoid the pertinent questions/issues and go elsewhere. I don't care that Dr. Reagan believes that, it doesn't matter one way or another, and he may have valid points, I haven't studied it. There are a few things in that text I posted that I don't agree with myself, like the bringing back of Spirits and gaining a Glorious body on the way to Heaven. Like the Rev. 7 Saints as coming out of the Tribulation, I say they came out of the Church Age Tribulation. Differences on a few things doesn't make us enemies at all. So he believes things I don't as well as you. It is what it is, he's still my brother as you are. Calling out specific beliefs like that to deflect from what I posted adds nothing brother, you only dodged the facts presented before you. 

Then you talk about others specific positions, then you linked to something else, but in the end you dodged every fact posted, COME ON MAN !! 

So in the end you just ranted and answered nary the point that was made !!

Edited February 11, 2019 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

3 hours ago, Cletus said:

if you look thru this thread you will find i have posted quite a few verses.  in fact, in my bible in the back on one of the blank pages i have a whole page dedicated to my hand written notes and verses on this. 

you have not knocked down one verse as of yet i have posted.  you have shown a false interpretation of a word from what i have read.  that is exactly why pretrib logic fails.  you cant pick and choose what words you want to mean what.  if you have noticed i have not touched the topic of latin... you have.  and yet you have said also about the error in the catholic stuff.  it matters which well you draw water from. 

I can knock down every verse that points to anything but pre trib. TRY ME !!

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, Steve Conley said:

Mr. Mad, First let me say that the timing for the rapture being after the great tribulation but before the wrath of God is poured out in the day of the Lord is well established from a great number of texts.

If it is so well established then why do learned scholars and expositors on all sides still debate it?   There are many scripture contexts that suggest there is a removal of the righteous before this period starts, i.e. before the false messiah is revealed.   In the Tanakh alone there are many references to this, especially in terms of it occurring before the time of Jacob's Trouble, which is commonly known as the Tribulation Period as acknowledged by many scholars and expositors.   And Revelation has over 400 verses that contain over 800 references to passages in the Tanakh.  And that only scratches the surface.  The entire Bible, especially the Tanakh, has many references.  Things are far more complex than some simplistic idea that the timing of these events is well established.  Comments such as those seem meant only to shut down any meaningful debate and negate any who disagree.  it is a tactic straight out of the worldly political system.   Among believers, that is a definite no-no.  

I am very much on the record that all of us, including me, probably have some aspect of this subject in error.  Even though many can make very good arguments on all sides of the issue. 

And it comes into play here..... the only barrier to truth is if one thinks they already have it.  And it then becomes an ego game at that point.  No one likes to face the possibility they could be wrong. That is human. But spiritually, one has to be open to the possibility.   I, for one, have modified my position and tweaked it over my lifetime.  Though I still am pre-trib, there are details in the overall structure of that period that I have been forced to modify. But the basic premise of a pre-trib removal of the righteous still remains.

I feel no need to force it down anyone's throat.  My friend Lyndon in my local assembly does not hold my view.  For some reason he thinks we may actually be in the Tribulation period.  We still can discuss these things as friends and brothers and have fun doing it.  We both love the Lord.  These are non essentials of the faith.  We agree on the core principles of the faith that are not in dispute.  Eschatology is far too complex to pigeon hole into one neat little box.

Edited February 11, 2019 by OldCoot

[Steve Conley]

9 hours ago, Littlelambseativy said:

I am so sorry that you interpreted what you read incorrectly. The Holy Spirit does not confuse anyone but enlightens. The Rapture is silent except to those left behind. Only those who are born again will hear the shout and trumpet. Jesus comes and meets us in the air... first the dead in Christ then those who are alive ( born again) will meet Him in the air. That is why  Jesus referred to His meeting us in the air as a thief in he night.....silent. This starts the Tribulation because the Holy Spirit is removed from earth. 

 This is not the Second coming. During the second coming His feet touch the earth on the Mount of Olives. There are only two comings one as an infant and the second as the Victor, the Lion of Judah, with angels and the saints following Him on white horses. This begins the Thousand year reign...millennium.

The Holy Spirit is taken out from the earth because He is the Restrainer and those left behind during the following 7 years will  have to revert to following the commandments to be found righteous. The Holy Spirit will not be here to indwell anyone. That is why there will be lawlessness. That is why it is better to be found His before theRapture. All before the Tribulation begins. ..a time like has not been seen before. That is why people will willingly accept the Mark of the Beast..

 

 

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

I think you need to reread the passages that refer to Christ coming as a thief. You will find that it has nothing to do with it being silent but with it being unexpected by the unbelieving. What level of twisting of the Scriptures will some go to, to prop up a bankrupt eschatological system?

Since you say the Holy Spirit is removed, what spirit indwells the two witnesses or indwells those dear tribulation saints who love not their life even unto death.

Have you learned nothing from the NT.

Gal 2:16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Act 13:39  And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Justification before God only ever (past, present, and future) is possible through faith in the person and work Jesus Christ alone. Only those in Jesus Christ will ever be partakers of eternal life and the promises made to the fathers.

Whoever is teaching you this foolishness needs to be rebuked.

Many who call themselves Christians today shall be faced with the decision to take the mark of the beast or not. Jesus said many will be offended because of the persecution (Matt 24:10).

I was a pre-tribber for 40 years and I know now that it is absolutely false. We are promised to be spared from God's wrath, but the great tribulation is not God's wrath. You have a rude awakening coming if you are a part of the last generation of the church. Those who have promised you a great escape before persecution comes your way have deceived you.

Rev 14:9  And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11  And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ

 

[JoeCanada]

49 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

I notice you never want to answer the pointed questions, you just try to attack a "SUB-SET" someone has that may or may not be right. Your Tribulation belief is wrong in my eyes, but I am not going to go around attacking you for that belief brother, just challenging you views point by point in a retort of sorts. Sometimes I get the same treatment, like Babel man, what is it about you post tribbers that make you not want to discuss the facts point by point, I am not claiming per se you attack like that, but you do often try to avoid the pertinent questions/issues and go elsewhere. I don't care that Dr. Reagan believes that, it doesn't matter one way or another, and he may have valid points, I haven't studied it. There are a few things in that text I posted that I don't agree with, like the bringing back of Spirits and gaining a Glorious body on the way to Heaven. Like the Rev. 7 Saints as coming out of the Tribulation, I say they came out of the Church Age Tribulation. Differences on a few things doesn't make us enemies at all. So he believes things I don't as well as you. It is what it is, he's still my brother as you are. Calling out specific beliefs like that to deflect from what I posted adds nothing brother, you only dodged the facts presented before you. 

Then you talk about others then you linked to something else, but in the end you dodged every fact posted, COME ON MAN !! 

So in the end you just ranted and answered nary the point that was made !!

Hi RM,

It was in YOUR post that YOU quoted the article by Reagan. Am I to believe that you don't believe what he wrote. You didn't follow up with anything suggesting otherwise. 

So that is why I pointed out that Reagan's teachings are false. The guy is who he is. I wouldn't respect any of his teachings.

"he may have valid points, I haven't studied it." Well, you should have, before you posted it. 

I answer most of your posts. But sometimes I just shake my head.