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Why Pretrib Logic Fails


JoeCanada

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55 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Well you broke this down wrong brother, I don't just say things without knowing the facts thereof. The Bible INTERPRETS ITSELF in most cases.

Rev. 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself {CHURCH} ready. 8 And to her {CHURCH} was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Rev. 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. {CHURCH}

We are told who the Church is in vere , then we are told who the Armies are in verse 14, they are Clothed in Fine Linen, Clean and White = The Church !!

We go to the Marriage Supper with Jesus, which is Armageddon !! {Matt. 24:28, the eagles will be where the Carcass is at} We see the FOWLS of Rev. 19 devours the flesh of men at Armageddon !! Metaphorically speaking, thus this is the Marriage Super. 

You just don't see what you don't want to see it seems brother, that is called tunnel vision. Rev. 19 clearly says the Marriage of the Lamb HAS COME !! We also see the 24 Elders in Rev. 4:4 who have the EXACT THINGS PROMISED to the 7 Churches...

Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

The Rewards promised to the Seven Churches are given unto the 24 Elders in Rev. 4:4.

* A Crown - ( Rev. 2:10, 3:11, 4:4 and 4:10 )

* A Throne - ( Rev. 3:21 and 4:4 )

* A White Robe - ( Rev. 3:4-5 and Rev. 4:4 )

As per the 24 Elders meaning ? or why 24 Elders !! Well this fits 1 Chronicles 24:7-19 where we are told there are 24 orders of priests.

So the Church is in Heaven before the Seals are opened, thus the Rapture happens before the Seals are opened !! John saw them in Rev. chapters 4 and 5, the Elders are not in Heaven having married the Lamb without the Church als being there, there is just ONE MARRIAGE !! 

 

That is a very flawed idea.  You are suggesting that every Christian that has lived since the day of Jesus are not part of the Church of Christ, that if you served your entire life for God through Jesus that you still go to Hell if you die before Jesus returns.  There are two marriages; the first is when Jesus returns the "armies of Heaven" (Rev 19:14)  which are the saints that died before Jesus return and they will follow him to join with the Christians on Earth that he will "gather together his elect from the four winds" (Matthew 24:31) after Jesus returns, then this is the "first resurrection" (Rev 20:6) or marriage when they get their crown of life.  The "second resurrection" or second marriage does not happen until after the thousand year reign of Christ, "Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."  But once the thousand years are finished satan will be loose for a short time to test the world (Rev 20:7+8), those that do not follow him will stand before God at the white throne of judgement and will be judged by their works to see if they will be part of the "second" marriage (Rev 20:13).  Christians are all shown to have Crowns, thrones, and white robes.  You are right, but does not mean it is eternal, only the marriage is the "resurrection" to eternal life.  The elders in Heaven have crowns, but still have not been given eternal life since the marriage of Christ has not happened yet.  "Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.", right now on Earth and in Heaven, all the Christians/saints have the crown of life.  But it can be "taken" away as is warned in Rev 3:11, so we must continue in the faith until the Resurrection/Marriage.

 

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

The Churches are the Church age, the Tribulation is after the Church Age. Those sealed in the foreheads are the 144,000 Jews which are really just ALL THE JEWS who repented {1/3 or 2 to 3 million Jews maybe even 5 million Jews if they all move to Israel} as Zechariah 13:8-9 tells us. 2/3 do not repent and thus they will perish. The Saints are the Jews whom God protects in Petra/Bozrah and the Gentiles who repent AFTER the Rapture better known as the Remnant Church {Rev. 12:17}. The Remnant Centiles are the Martyrs under the Altar at the 5th Seal. 

You better not breakdown the other brother, there are no weaknesses in my Eschatology. I follow the Holy Spirit in all things. 

God Bless.

 

The book of Revelations is symbolic, you pointed out several symbolic meanings already in your post.  But the 144,000 Jews is not symbolic, the only thing in the entire book that happens to be literal?  So if it is literally Jews that repented, then you are saying there are only 144,000 Jews that will go to Eternity, while the millions others are all going to the Lake of Fire?  If you want to be literal, then it has to be all literal right?  Obviously that is foolish, the 144,000 is not a literal number of saved neither is it talking of Jews. "Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads."  When Jesus returns and gathers the saints, they will stand with Jesus on the mount of Sion.  It is said the same number from the churches the 144,000, but this is not raptured people as it says "having his Father's name written in their foreheads", but "Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads."  During the Tribulation the demons are commanded by God that they can not hurt anyone that has the Seal of God on their foreheads, so those with his name in their foreheads will be here during the Tribulation.

 

Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

There are not "Jews" in Heaven, as Jesus said we will all be like the Angels, the Jews was a flesh bloodline.  True "Israel" are the "children of the promise", which are all those brought into the adoption of Christ as the "saints".  Jew is flesh, and they died when their flesh died.  Israel lives on in the spirit, but are all the saints that believe in Jesus Christ.  So the 144,000 Jews, is just a symbolic number speaking about spiritual Israel, the Church/Christians/Saints/Chosen.

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1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

I can knock down every verse that points to anything but pre trib. TRY ME !!

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

Matthew 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

Matthew 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

Matthew 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

 

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Matthew 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

 

...so you saying you will deny Jesus three times before the cock crows?  Here are three scriptures Jesus Christ himself said the saints will not be gathered until "after the tribulation", so here is your chance to call Jesus Christ a liar so you can "prove" you are right about pre trib.

 

Matthew 26:34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

 

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2 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Mr. Mad, First let me say that the timing for the rapture being after the great tribulation but before the wrath of God is poured out in the day of the Lord is well established from a great number of texts. ...

Glory be to Jesus Christ

This seems a very good place to begin. You are only imagining a rapture after the GT is well established. Millions of pretribbers have never found such scriptures. Therefore, I hope you can back this up by showing us scriptures. I really want to see them!  "Well established" should be at least two or  three scriptures. 

I will agree that the rapture is before God's wrath. I can find scripture to support that.

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So, the suggestion is that there are no references to the rapture. One person even said there was a website that would pay $1000 to prove such - I checked and that was a false statement.

Isa. 57:1 The righteous perishes,
And no man takes it to heart;
Merciful men are taken away,
While no one considers
That the righteous is taken away from [a]evil.
He shall enter into peace;
They shall rest in their beds,
Each one walking in his uprightness.

“But come here,
You sons of the sorceress,
You offspring of the adulterer and the harlot!

Isaiah is mapped out with a chronological precision that is obvious from about chapter 42 onward. Starting with Jesus and the first century, then the last days of the Church Age in ch. 56 and the rapture in 57 followed by detailed information concerning the (3.5 year) tribulation and ending with the Millennial promises.

 

Matt 24 has a series of parables starting with the fig tree (Israel's rebirth) "this generation shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled"

Then, the rapture parables... along with phrases like "watch, for you know not what time your Lord will come" It is sudden and without warning - BUT the 2nd coming will be a known time based on information in Revelation

11:11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12  And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. 13 In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14  The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly.

 15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

All "weeping and Gnashing of teeth" phrases are directly linked to the final 3.5 year tribulation RIGHT AFTER the rapture. These parables reference the wicked, unwise, etc... as being cast into the refining fire of the final tribulation while the wise, righteous, etc... are spared from it, because it is specifically designated as being for those who are punished.

The last mention of this phrase is in verse 30. 

Verse 31 begins to give the specifics of the 2nd coming at or near the end of the final tribulation period.

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1 hour ago, OldCoot said:

If it is so well established then why do learned scholars and expositors on all sides still debate it?   There are many scripture contexts that suggest there is a removal of the righteous before this period starts, i.e. before the false messiah is revealed.   In the Tanakh alone there are many references to this, especially in terms of it occurring before the time of Jacob's Trouble, which is commonly known as the Tribulation Period as acknowledged by many scholars and expositors.   And Revelation has over 400 verses that contain over 800 references to passages in the Tanakh.  And that only scratches the surface.  The entire Bible, especially the Tanakh, has many references.  Things are far more complex than some simplistic idea that the timing of these events is well established.  Comments such as those seem meant only to shut down any meaningful debate and negate any who disagree.  it is a tactic straight out of the worldly political system.   Among believers, that is a definite no-no.  

I am very much on the record that all of us, including me, probably have some aspect of this subject in error.  Even though many can make very good arguments on all sides of the issue. 

And it comes into play here..... the only barrier to truth is if one thinks they already have it.  And it then becomes an ego game at that point.  No one likes to face the possibility they could be wrong. That is human. But spiritually, one has to be open to the possibility.   I, for one, have modified my position and tweaked it over my lifetime.  Though I still am pre-trib, there are details in the overall structure of that period that I have been forced to modify. But the basic premise of a pre-trib removal of the righteous still remains.

I feel no need to force it down anyone's throat.  My friend Lyndon in my local assembly does not hold my view.  For some reason he thinks we may actually be in the Tribulation period.  We still can discuss these things as friends and brothers and have fun doing it.  We both love the Lord.  These are non essentials of the faith.  We agree on the core principles of the faith that are not in dispute.  Eschatology is far too complex to pigeon hole into one neat little box.

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

OC, There is not a single verse of Scripture that suggests the church is removed before the period of unprecedented persecution of the elect takes place. The pre-trib error which also I taught for 30 years involved a misunderstanding of the nature of the great tribulation, thinking that it was the wrath of God on the day of the Lord. The great tribulation and God's wrath on the day of the Lord are separated by the cosmic sign, the first resurrection, and the rapture. We must be removed from the earth to a place of safety before the salvos of God's wrath begins to fall. 

The pre-trib deception isn't harmless, it causes one to disregard the warnings Christ gave for our safety. Those under the influence of the pre-trib system see those warnings and have been conditioned to think: "they are not for me, they belong to some other category of believer, or even unbelieving Jews." The warnings are therefore unheaded and like the man who built his house upon the sand when the waters (unprecedented persecution and great deception) come they will be destroyed. The harm that one who professes Christ can suffer is to fall away (be offended at the persecution for the name of Christ) and worship the Beast.

The extent to which this has infected the evangelical churches is that very well known teachers have said that Christians will not be damned if they take the mark of the Beast. Those who say such are dangerous fools and deceivers. They are deceived because they chose not the love of the truth, they rejected the plain sense of Scriptural texts making them subordinate to a fallacious eschatological system. They desire the praise and approval of men more than God. 

If you are concerned about my tone, I can't imagine that of Christ or Paul being any less stern.

Glory be to our blessed Saviour Jesus Christ

Edited by Steve Conley
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2 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

...

No eschatological teaching that I hold is determined by the proper interpretation of what was meant by Paul's use of en-is'-tay-mee at the end of 2Thes 2:2. However, the Scripture testifying that the appearing of Christ for His saints follows the great tribulation is a certainty that informs us about what Paul initialy taught the Thessalonians concerning Christ's return. When we know Paul's teaching concerning the events that will precede the parousia of Christ it is easy to see how the Thessalonians thought the severe persecution that they were facing was the great tribulation.

The choice of "at hand" (its meaning in that day being near in time or distance) for the English translation of en-is'-tay-mee tells us what the translators believed Paul was trying to communicate. At hand fit properly with the context of the Thessalonians being in distress thinking that they were going through the great tribulation. Jesus taught that the unprecedented persecution precedes His return. Only after the great tribulation begins will it be so that the parousia (coming) of Christ and our gathering to Him will be near in time. The great tribulation begins when the man of sin is revealed in the temple shewing himself to be God after which there will be a notable falling away. These are the conditions that Paul says must be met before the day of Christ will be near in time.

...

Glory be to Jesus Christ

I did not live back then. I can only go by what the "experts" tell us.  There is ample proof this word can be as I previously stated:
NIV:  the day of the Lord has already come.
NLT:  the day of the Lord has already begun
ESV:  the day of the Lord has come.
BSB:  the Day of the Lord has already come.
BLB:  that day of the Lord is present.
NASB: the day of the Lord has come
CSB:  the day of the Lord has come.
HCSB:  the Day of the Lord has come.
ISV:  the Day of the Lord has already come. 
Net Bible:  the day of the Lord is already here
NHEB: the day of the Lord had come.
Aramaic: The Day of our Lord has arrived.”
NAS:  the day of the Lord has come
Darby: the day of the Lord is present.
ERV:  the day of the Lord is now present;
Weymouth; the day of the Lord is now here.
Young's literal: the day of Christ hath arrived

If you need more, I can go to another site and find more. This was from the Bible Hub.

Now, for horse sense: no matter if they had been taught pretrib, and they heard that the day was AT HAND, they should have been glad, not upset. If they had been taught pretrib and then heard that the day had started and they were in it, OF COURSE they would be upset.

if they had been taught posttrib and then heard that the day had come, and they were in it, they would know they had only to wait out the rest of the 7 years, so no reason to be troubled.  It would be the same of the heard the day was at hand. No reason to be troubled. 

They knew NOTHING of prewrath thought back then. 

Therefore the most logical deduction is that they had been taught exactly what the first letter taught them: that the rapture would come just before wrath and the Day of the Lord.  Then they heard the THE DAY had already started and they were in it. Why were they upset? They either thought that Paul was mistaken, or that they had MISSED the prewrath rapture.

Why would they be distressed thinking they were going through the GT - UNLESS Paul had taught them the rapture would come before that? 

the Scripture testifying that the appearing of Christ for His saints follows the great tribulation  The only possible scripture I can think of you are getting this from is Matthew 24 - the gathering. Sorry, but there is simply NO PROOF this gathering is Paul's rapture. Indeed, there is proof it is NOT! There is no way one can get a post GT rapture from 1 Thes 4 or 5. 

Only after the great tribulation begins will it be so that the parousia (coming) of Christ and our gathering to Him will be near in time  IF this is true (which it is not) why would they be upset? They should be shouting - knowing the rapture was just around the corner - maybe only a day away!

These are the conditions that Paul says must be met before the day of Christ will be near in time.  That is true only if by apostasia Paul really meant a falling away rather than the gathering and departing of the church.

 

Sorry, but there are just too many IF'S in your theory. Your logic is not sound.

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37 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

OC, There is not a single verse of Scripture that suggests the church is removed before the period of unprecedented persecution of the elect takes place.

I would disagree.  There are several verses in both the Tanakh and the New Covenant which support and complement each other in this regard to the removal of the righteous prior to that period.   If you are looking for one verse that encapsulates the idea, that narrows the field quite a bit.  But then, there is no single verse that lays out the doctrine of the Trinity either.  The name of Yahweh is absent from the Book of Esther, but it is hidden in equidistant letter sequencing throughout the book.  

One can set so many conditions on what is considered valid evidence that only the evidence that fits their own world view is allowed.  That is a disingenuous approach to scripture exegesis.  

It is assumption on your part that the elect has only in view the Church.   Yahweh made it especially clear in scripture that Israel is His elect.  And made sure that there was no ambiguity in His meaning by using both Jacob and Israel (the two names of the same Patriarch of the Hebrew people) in the same verse and context of stating that they are His elect.    Election does not imply salvation, which would be yet another false assumption.   Just like in Matthew 24, the gathering of the Elect, it is a false to assume that the Church is all that is in view, if even in view at all.   Especially in the light of the myriad of passages in the Scripture that specifically states that the Hebrew people would be gathered in the end and Yeshua would rule over them with the authority of King David.  Add to this, there are also Elect angels, as Paul wrote to Timothy.  

So which elect are being persecuted during the Tribulation Period?  It would seem from Jeremiah that the elect being persecuted and saved thru the Tribulation period are the Hebrew people.

Edited by OldCoot
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3 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

...

Mr. Mad, it appears that I have caught you being deceptive by ommiting information which speaks contrary to your idea of the meaning of (en-is'-tay-mee) which is translated at hand. You conveniently left out Paul's use of the word to Timothy. Here Paul uses ἐνστήσονται translated "shall come". A. T. Robertson (Possibly the most respected NT Greek Schollar of our time) says concerning it: "Future middle of enistēmi (intransitive use), old verb, to stand on or be at hand, as in 2Th 2:2." He further says concerning the use of en-is'-tay-mee in 2Thes 2:2: "Perfect active indicative of enistēmi, old verb, to place in, but intransitive in this tense to stand in or at or near. So “is imminent” (Lightfoot)."

2Ti 3:1  This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

...

Glory be to Jesus Christ

I looked it up again. Here in the same order is what Strongs shows us:

Romans 8:38   "present"

1 Cor. 3:22   "present"

1 Cor. 7:26  "present"

Gal 1:4  "present"

2 Thes. 2:2  "at hand"

2 Tim 3:1  "shall come."

Heb. 9:9  "present"

What have we learned? This Greek word can have several meanings.  

It is anyone's choice which they feel best fits the context. 

HOWEVER: it seems the experts greatly favor "present." 

Edited by iamlamad
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3 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

You're free to believe what you want, but indeed, the Thessalonians, according to Paul's teachings, believed that the GT would come before the day of Christ. Paul was saying that they were not in the great tribulation, the period of time in which the day of Christ will be at hand.

Man's definition of the trib - The trib is a seven year period in which God's wrath will be poured out upon the earth. This seven year period is said to be the day of the Lord. In this period God uses the Beast as an instrument of His wrath. The last 3.5 years contains the most severe portion of God's wrath and is called the great tribulation.

Bible definition of tribulation - The pressure associated with being persecuted for Jesus sake, experiencing God's vengeance in the day of the Lord, or experiencing the hardships common to man. The context determines which it is.

Bible definition of the great tribulation - The unprecedented period of violent persecution of the elect by the Beast and his followers which begins ~3.5 years before Christ's millenial kingdom is set up. It begins with the abomination of desolation which is the defiling of the Jewish Temple by the man of sin. It results in a notable falling away (many shall be offended). It is accompanied by lying signs and wonders. It is cut short to keep some of the elect alive upon the earth. The cosmic which announces Christ's return signals that it is over. The length is unspecified which keeps us from knowing the day or hour of Christ's return. Daniel called it an unprecedented time of trouble. Jeremiah called it Jacob's trouble. Out of it shall the innumerable multitude of Rev 7 come.

Glory be to Jesus Christ

The 70th week is the seven year period. This is the bible title. "The trib" is man's title. 

How can you possibly know what the Thessalonians believed? You can only guess! 

What Paul REALLY wrote was HOW anyone can know they are IN the day of the Lord: if they see the man of sin being revealed, then they know for SURE that the DAY has come, and they are IN IT. 

Paul never got to read Revelation. But let's compare Paul's argument with Revelation:

The Day of the Lord starts at the 6th seal, and continues on through most or all of the book. 

We can prove by Rev. 12:6 that the revealing is in chapter 11. (They flee when they see it) Therefore, if anyone sees the man of sin revealed, the DAY will have already started: chapter 11 comes AFTER chapter 6. The 7th trumpet comes AFTER the 6th seal. Therefore Paul's logic is sound.

AFter studying Revelation, I can say the same thing: if anyone SEES the man of sin enter the temple and declare he is GOD, they can KNOW that "The DAY" has come. And Now I am confident the right Greek text has the Day of the Lord, NOT "the day of Christ." Why do I say that? Because the revealing is in the Day of the Lord, not the day of Christ - IF indeed Paul separates these terms. 

We still disagree on almost everything.

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Steve Conley said:

The pre-trib deception isn't harmless, it causes one to disregard the warnings Christ gave for our safety

Really?  The pre-trib position seems to motivate many who hold it to recognize that the time is short and those that remain behind are in grave danger.  It motivates those of us who hold that position to seek out the lost and show them the Gospel of salvation because we believe the time is short. It also keeps those of us who hold to this position to a standard of staying in right relationship with the Lord because He could gather us at any moment.  The only risk we could possibly be in is being asleep spiritually and not focused on what we are called to be.

If the position is in error, then how would those who hold to the position be at risk for their safety?   Because they didn't follow the fad du jour and become self absorbed super preppers?  And given the technology of today, how would anyone who hold an alternate position and goes into that period be any more safe than a pre-tribber?   It is extreme arrogance to think that one is going to be safe during that time based on an eschatology.

Too many false assumptions.  But that's ok.  We will explain it further on the way up.  All those that are redeemed will be part of that removal.  Even if they hold a alternate eschatology.   Those that do hold an alternate eschatology seem to imply that those who hold to a pre-trib position are somehow not redeemed or at best, marginal Christians.  It becomes a "I am better than you" philosophy.  So what is the source of redemption of the believer?  Eschatology or the atonement of the Messiah?    Pre-trib adherents are all inclusive.  We believe that all of the redeemed will be removed prior to that period.  All those that are redeemed thru the Messiah will be removed.

It is not the best way to approach this, but based on the many anti pre-trib arguments, I am even more motivated to hold to a pre-trib position.  At least it offers the greatest hope.  Every other postion offers this..... The Messiah betrothed us to Himself, but He has so little regard for us that He wants us to go thru the worse period of history to befall the earth and then afterwards have supper with us.  it almost smacks of a works righteousness gospel.  That we somehow have to prove our worthiness of His redemption.  I see that as the ultimate insult to Him.

Edited by OldCoot
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