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Why Pretrib Logic Fails


JoeCanada

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48 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Iamlamad,

Then God said, “Let there be [a]lights in the [b]expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years;.....

16 God made the two [e]great lights, the greater [f]light [g]to govern the day, and the lesser [h]light [i]to govern the night; He made the stars also......Gen 1:14

So God gave us the sun and moon,  not just for light but also for  signs.

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from [a]the sky, and the powers of [b]the heavens will be shaken.".....Math 24

Is this a sign for us to watch for? I think so!

I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth,
Blood, fire and columns of smoke.
31 “The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood
Before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes......Joel 2:30-31

Isn't this another sign to watch for?

"Then there will be signs in the sun and moon.................

But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near"....Luke 21:25-28

"Therefore when you SEE the Abomination of Desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the Prophet.....".....Math 24:15

"Look".....that is what Jesus is telling us to do. Look for signs. When you see................

So here is the question one should be asking.......

How can pretribbers be looking for Him? According to their theory on "imminence".....He could have come back at anytime in the last 2000 years. Nothing needed to be fulfilled. Not even the 7 church "ages" in Rev., which kinda blows the theory of imminence right out of the water.  

Hind sight is always 20/20.  A better question is: could He come TOMORROW or tonight? I think yes. Can you prove something else must come first?

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10 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi OC,

Hmmmmmm.....

I have never come across a scripture that says that when someone puts their faith in Christ, is washed by the blood of the Lamb, believes in the resurrection, etc......that they are then immune from any tribulation, that persecution would not come near to them, that they are protected until the day they are resurrected/raptured. 

What I do see is...."Through much persecution we must enter the kingdom of God"...Acts 14:22

(Rom 5:3-4) And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; (4) And patience, experience; and experience, hope.

(Rom 8:35-36) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? (36) As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter

(Matt 5:10-12) Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

(1 Pet 1:6-7)(NASB) In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary you have been distressed by various trials. (7) so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

That's just a few of many that are throughout scripture. To say that God would never allow his Church to suffer kinda flies in the face of what the Holy Spirit says throughout the bible.

Our brothers and sisters who are "living the persecuted Church" in 51 different countries around the world, I'm sure they would tell you differently. What makes the Church in the west so special to think that God won't allow "them" to have their faith tested? As one writer on here said..."Our loving Father would never allow His children to suffer through any tribulation".

We need to rethink this.

No rethinking necessary: the persecution throughout the church age has come from Satan who hates God and hates His people.  What is coming is different: it is judgment from God. That is what He will save us from. He is not going to set any appointments for us with His wrath. 

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1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Iamlamad,

Here is the whole verse where we are told to comfort one another with these words: 1 Thes 4:13-18

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

We are to comfort those that grieve......those that sorrow. 

Friend, grieve not, for....." Christ will bring back those that have died in Him, back with Him to meet us in the air"

Those are comforting words.

I don't see any post trib or pretrib here at all. 

For a second there I thought I was going to read that we comfort those that have fallen asleep!  Good point.  But look at chapter 5:

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Here the comfort is that we are not appointed to wrath.  Now that is a real comfort!

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2 hours ago, ENOCH2010 said:

Why do you fear death so much, the Bible says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Read the verse again, He shall appear a second time (as in the second coming). 

Why do you assume I fear death?  I just don't wish to be left behind when He comes for His own.  You are right; there is no sting in death! Not for a believer. 

Let's count:

He came to die. That is one coming.

He is coming for His saints, to take us to the homes He has prepared: that will be His second coming.  (However, here He only comes to the air. So this verse may well be for His chapter 19 coming.)

Seven years later, He will come with the armies of heaven: that will be his THIRD coming. 

Edited by iamlamad
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55 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

No rethinking necessary: the persecution throughout the church age has come from Satan who hates God and hates His people.  What is coming is different: it is judgment from God. That is what He will save us from. He is not going to set any appointments for us with His wrath. 

I agree.....

"He is not going to set any appt's for us with His wrath.

Tribulation.....yes

Persecution....yes

Wrath.....NO

There is a big difference between Tribulation and Wrath.

 

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4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Good post, but I have a question and/or a comment or two.

1 Thes. 4:18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

How in the world can a posttrib believer comfort another believer when teaching them that there is no pretrib rapture and they are going to face the Beast and probably lose their head? Ever wonder about this?

Next, what do you make of this verse:

Heb. 9:28  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

If I thought something else MUST come before Christ comes, this verse would bother me!  Are posttribbers "looking" for Him? I don't see how. Are prewrathers "looking" for Him? How can either of these groups of people be looking for HIM when they expect something else first?  This verse makes me wonder if they will even hear the trumpet. Your thoughts?

There are various motivations why folks just seem to gravitate towards a scenario that involves getting the snot beat out of them by the God they claim to worship.  But it sure isn't the Blessed Hope that Paul was talking about.

And like you pointed out, I am not sure how "comfort one another with these words" works when one is being told they are going to go thru the worse period in the entirety of world history and quite probably be butchered and killed in the process.

I am reminded of a quip that might seem a little irreverent, but it definitely gets the point across......

"I will betroth myself with my Church.  But before I will come back to get you I will beat the living snot out of you until almost none of you are left alive.  Then we will go have dinner.  Oh.... by the way.... Comfort one another with these words."

Kinda makes Yeshua sound more like Allah of Islam.   It seems strange that the redeemed who Yeshua bought and paid for with His own blood, He would allow them to go thru a period that is clearly marked to judge the world and drive the Hebrew people to finally officially acknowledge Yeshua as the Messiah.   Sure doesn't sound like a loving savior if He wants His Church He bought and paid for to go thru that also.

And the GT period... ALL OF IT... is judgement on the inhabitants of the earth. All the seals, vials, bowls... all of it. It is by Yeshua's authority to open the scroll that the Holy Spirit steps aside and allows the False Messiah / Antichrist to be revealed.   None of these things would happen if Yeshua did not start the process by opening the scroll with the seals.  So it is by His hand that these things come upon the earth. They mirror the plagues that God brought upon the Egyptians thru Moses, but on a world wide scale this next time.    So none of this word twisting about going into the Tribulation but not the Wrath nonsense.   Isaiah 26 is quite clear that the righteous dead and living will be hidden from all of this. David also states so in Psalms 27 which is an allusion to Jeremiah 30.   And Yeshua confirms both Isaiah and David in John 14.  

Some argue that the Church must be purified and that is why it has to go thru the Tribulation period.  Do what?  The Church is only made up of those who are redeemed and justified by the Blood of Yeshua.  They are already purified by the Blood of the Lamb.  Now true, not everyone who goes to a church building is part of the Church, or better, Ekklesia.  But every person who is part of the actual Church is already redeemed and made righteous by the death, burial, and resurrection of the Messiah.  Any thing about having to go thru the GT to be purified is equivalent to a works righteousness gig and is saying the Blood of Yeshua is insufficient.  Can you think of anything more insulting to the Father than the idea that His Son's sacrifice is insufficient?   I can't.

Edited by OldCoot
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18 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

I agree.....

"He is not going to set any appt's for us with His wrath.

Tribulation.....yes

Persecution....yes

Wrath.....NO

There is a big difference between Tribulation and Wrath.

 

We may are may not agree:

Some people imagine they can separate God's wrath from Satan's wrath during the 70th week. It is a complete fallacy! They happen at the same time! When Satan's anger is at its peak, and the beheadings are at their peak, God pours out the vials of His wrath to shorten those days of GT. 

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2 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

I have never come across a scripture that says that when someone puts their faith in Christ, is washed by the blood of the Lamb, believes in the resurrection, etc......that they are then immune from any tribulation, that persecution would not come near to them, that they are protected until the day they are resurrected/raptured. 

You make a common mistake.  You are confusing general tribulation that is of the world, directed by evil, towards the believer with the Great Tribulation also known as the time of Jacob's trouble.   It is the latter one that believers will be spared from.  

Your concept also comes from a misunderstanding of what the GT period is all about.  It is to bring judgment upon the world to drive some to faith and drive the Hebrew people to finally recognizing and calling out for the Messiah they rejected for 2000 years.

None of that period has anything to do with the redeemed believers before it begins.  Sure, there will be some who turn to Messiah when this stuff starts and even during this time, but they went into the GT period initially as unbelievers.  

Edited by OldCoot
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On 2/10/2019 at 11:07 PM, iamlamad said:

We can prove by Rev. 12:6 that the revealing is in chapter 11.

 

On 2/10/2019 at 10:57 PM, iamlamad said:

HOWEVER: it seems the experts greatly favor "present." 

 

On 2/10/2019 at 10:45 PM, iamlamad said:

there is simply NO PROOF this gathering is Paul's rapture. Indeed, there is proof it is NOT! There is no way one can get a post GT rapture from 1 Thes 4 or 5. 

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Mr. Mad, I've been unable to give any attention to your posts for a few days. I would be interested in your proving that the revelation of the AC is in Rev 11. It appears that is just supposition based upon the idea that there are 3.5 years left in the seventieth week at Rev 12:6. There are parenthetical portions of John's recording of the things which shall be hereafter. Chapters 6-9 and 15-16 are chronological but all the others are not, but are pericopes providing details which fit into the chronological narrative and outside it.

As to your statements concerning the modern Bible translations, the "experts", and the millions of pretribbers. No one can translate the Scriptures without their understanding of Bible doctrine affecting their choice of words used to represent the original text. It is expected that pre-tribbers will translate it consistent with their doctrinal beliefs. If you go back before the teaching of JND, I expect you will find translations that aren't so accommodating to pre-tribulationism. 

Matt 24 records Christ describing the events which precede His coming. There are more than 2 dozen parallels between Christ's description of what precedes His arrival and the gathering of His elect in Matt 24 and Paul's eschatological teaching in 1st and 2nd Thessalonians. I'm sure you can find them if you're interested in truth.

Unlike most pre-tribbers, you do not teach that the day of the Lord nor the seventieth week begins with the 1st seal. You are correct that the day of the Lord begins after the sixth seal is opened, with Christ's glorious appearing taking place after the cosmic sign. However, you do not recognize John's cosmic sign as the same cosmic sign that Christ said immediately follows the great tribulation.

Also, it appears that you do not recognize that great tribulation refers to unprecedented persecution upon the elect by the beast instead of God's wrath upon the elect and the earth dwellers. Here is a real problem for pretribulationists. They teach that God is pouring out His wrath upon His own faithful saints, those who love not their lives unto death. Pre-tribbers have God tribulating (persecuting) His own, how dreadful.

You fail to recognize that the Gentile believers have been made partakers with the believing Israelites of the promises made to the fathers. Believing Gentiles have been graffed in amongst believing Israelites. Because of this, you separate the elect into different groups. Paul said clearly that it is the election (believers from among the Israelites) not the unbelieving descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob receive the promises. It is this election that the believing Gentile is added to. Gentile believers are no more strangers and foreigners but fellowcitizens with the saints and of the household of God. 

You also fail to connect the singular parousia (arrival and continuing presence), epiphania (appearing), and the resurrection/change and rapture all together.

After considering what I can ascertain from your beliefs, I have come to the conclusion that you actually have more things right than the typical pre-tribber. Recognizing roughly the proper location of the rapture and the beginning of the day of the Lord places you far ahead of most. However, your failure to link that which Paul sees at the opening of the fifth seal with the great tribulation forces your misapplication of Christ's words in Matt 24.

Glory be to Jesus Christ

Edited by Steve Conley
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On 2/10/2019 at 11:26 PM, OldCoot said:

Really?  The pre-trib position seems to motivate many who hold it to recognize that the time is short and those that remain behind are in grave danger.  It motivates those of us who hold that position to seek out the lost and show them the Gospel of salvation because we believe the time is short. It also keeps those of us who hold to this position to a standard of staying in right relationship with the Lord because He could gather us at any moment.  The only risk we could possibly be in is being asleep spiritually and not focused on what we are called to be.

If the position is in error, then how would those who hold to the position be at risk for their safety?   Because they didn't follow the fad du jour and become self absorbed super preppers?  And given the technology of today, how would anyone who hold an alternate position and goes into that period be any more safe than a pre-tribber?   It is extreme arrogance to think that one is going to be safe during that time based on an eschatology.

Too many false assumptions.  But that's ok.  We will explain it further on the way up.  All those that are redeemed will be part of that removal.  Even if they hold a alternate eschatology.   Those that do hold an alternate eschatology seem to imply that those who hold to a pre-trib position are somehow not redeemed or at best, marginal Christians.  It becomes a "I am better than you" philosophy.  So what is the source of redemption of the believer?  Eschatology or the atonement of the Messiah?    Pre-trib adherents are all inclusive.  We believe that all of the redeemed will be removed prior to that period.  All those that are redeemed thru the Messiah will be removed.

It is not the best way to approach this, but based on the many anti pre-trib arguments, I am even more motivated to hold to a pre-trib position.  At least it offers the greatest hope.  Every other postion offers this..... The Messiah betrothed us to Himself, but He has so little regard for us that He wants us to go thru the worse period of history to befall the earth and then afterwards have supper with us.  it almost smacks of a works righteousness gospel.  That we somehow have to prove our worthiness of His redemption.  I see that as the ultimate insult to Him.

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

O foolish one, you didn't listen to what I said was the danger. The danger isn't physical it is spiritual. The saints are said to be overcomers in martyrdom. However, those who are professors who experience unprecedented persecution and are offended, it is they who are in danger. It is those among so-called Christian churches who are deceived by the lying signs and wonders that are in danger. Those who have been told that they don't have any worry, they can take the mark and not be lost. These, who refuse the love of the truth, Paul said that God would send them strong delusion.

You fail to see that it is the will of God and a blessed privilege that we identify with Christ in His sufferings. My hope is not in making it out of here without experiencing persecution, but Jesus Himself. Jesus has always been the church's blessed hope. When He comes it will be a rescue to prevent the Beast from killing every last child of God.

Glory be to the Lamb

Edited by Steve Conley
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