Why Pretrib Logic Fails

[Steve Conley]

On 2/11/2019 at 9:23 AM, Littlelambseativy said:

If you are a father and see your child walk ahead of you in the parking lot only then to see that a car is backing out and your child, who is oblivious of impending danger,  is in harms way ready to be run over...what would you do? As a loving father I would hope that you would run and “snatch “ your child from danger or harm. 

Would our loving Father in Heaven do less than you a mortal here on earth? That is the reason for the rapture, Snatching or any other word related to the rapture.

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

I suppose the Lord didn't love these martyrs or their fellowservants.

Rev 6:9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

You don't know what you are talking about. Tell that to the hundreds of millions of believers who have been slaughtered by the Muslims over the past 1400 years.

Glory be to Jesus Christ

[OldCoot]

7 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

O foolish one, you didn't listen to what I said was the danger. The danger isn't physical it is spiritual. The saints are said to be overcomers in martyrdom. However, those who are professors who experience unprecedented persecution and are offended, it is they who are in danger. It is those among so-called Christian churches who are deceived by the lying signs and wonders that are in danger. Those who have been told that they don't have any worry, they can take the mark and not be lost. These, who refuse the love of the truth, Paul said that God would send them strong delusion.

You fail to see that it is the will of God and a blessed privilege that we identify with Christ in His sufferings. My hope is not in making it out of here without experiencing persecution, but Jesus Himself. Jesus has always been the church's blessed hope. When He comes it will be a rescue to prevent the Beast from killing every last child of God.

Glory be to the Lamb

Oh fellow foolish one... just throwing it back for the fun of it.  I love it when people attempt personal attacks.  When it happens, I become convinced that I struck a chord and am really upsetting their apple cart.  I said "oh foolish one" in jest as a response to your saying it.  But I would watch out how you throw that around on purpose, as it is a sin to call a brother in Yeshua a fool.  Scripture is clear.

If a person has accepted the death, burial, and resurrection of Yeshua for the remission of their sins and salvation, and have joined with Him, then they are sealed unto the day of redemption and whether they go into the Tribulation Period or not has no bearing on them spiritually.  They have been bought and paid for by the Messiah and are sealed by the Holy Spirit.  They are in the body.  To suggest what you are implying is to suggest that the Holy Spirit is unable to keep that person sealed. 

Now it could be true that one might claim to be a believer and is not, and they would indeed be at risk of going into the Tribulation period without the protection of the Holy Spirit. 

We do indeed share in the Messiah's sufferings. But that is in the present time.  The brothers and sisters in N. Korea, Sudan, etc are doing so as we write these things. I am grieved daily for what they are having to endure.  I petition the Lord daily to preserve and protect these wonderful brethren thru the trials they are enduring.   I long to see them receive their reward from Yeshua.  What a wonderful experience that will be to see the Lord embrace them after all they have suffered.  But that doesn't mean that every Christian alive just before the GT period starts must go thru the same thing to "prove themselves worthy" by having the privilege of identifying with the Messiah and His suffering.  Especially when what is going on the GT period is at the will of the Messiah Himself.  That period is to make the unbelieving world suffer under judgment by the Messiah to drive them, and especially the Hebrew people, to repentance.

And we know that this is the reason for the GT period because the Messiah Himself stated He would not return again UNTIL the Hebrew people en masse acknowledge their offense of rejecting Him and petition for His return.  Yeshua made the abundantly clear in Hosea 5 and emphasized it again in Matthew 23.   It doesn't get any simpler than that.  The GT period is not to offer the opportunity for believers to score brownie points with the Lord.  It is to drive the world and especially the Hebrew people to repentance.

But you are welcome to participate in that if you wish. I would not stand in your way.   It somewhat bothers me that you feel the need to go thru that period. It causes me to wonder if you know in whom you have placed your trust.  I know in whom I have placed my trust, and that I will watch all of this from the comfort of the presence of the Lord, as He promised in Isaiah and Paul expounded on.  

There will be those that do come to repentance in the GT period, they will then become saints, and they will indeed suffer martyrdom.  But they went into the GT period as unbelievers.  There is no way to construe from that fact that the body of believers that comprise the Church at the start of the GT period have to go thru it.  Any idea that they do exhibits that the person expressing that idea has no clue what the GT period's purpose is for.

Edited February 13, 2019 by OldCoot
Spelling

[Steve Conley]

31 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

Oh fellow foolish one... just throwing it back for the fun of it.  I love it when people attempt personal attacks.  When it happens, I become convinced that I struck a chord and am really upsetting their apple cart.  I said "oh foolish one" in jest as a response to your saying it.  But I would watch out how you throw that around on purpose, as it is a sin to call a brother in Yeshua a fool.  Scripture is clear.

If a person has accepted the death, burial, and resurrection of Yeshua for the remission of their sins and salvation, and have joined with Him, then they are sealed unto the day of redemption and whether they go into the Tribulation Period or not has no bearing on them spiritually.  They have been bought and paid for by the Messiah and are sealed by the Holy Spirit.  They are in the body.  To suggest what you are implying is to suggest that the Holy Spirit is unable to keep that person sealed. 

Now it could be true that one might claim to be a believer and is not, and they would indeed be at risk of going into the Tribulation period without the protection of the Holy Spirit. 

We do indeed share in the Messiah's sufferings. But that is in the present time.  The brothers and sisters in N. Korea, Sudan, etc are doing so as we write these things. I am grieved daily for what they are having to endure.  I petition the Lord daily to preserve and protect these wonderful brethren thru the trials they are enduring.   I long to see them receive their reward from Yeshua.  What a wonderful experience that will be to see the Lord embrace them after all they have suffered.  But that doesn't mean that every Christian alive just before the GT period starts must go thru the same thing to "prove themselves worthy" by having the privilege of identifying with the Messiah and His suffering.  Especially when what is going on the GT period is at the will of the Messiah Himself.  That period is to make the unbelieving world suffer under judgment by the Messiah to drive them, and especially the Hebrew people, to repentance.

And we know that this is the reason for the GT period because the Messiah Himself stated He would not return again UNTIL the Hebrew people en masse acknowledge their offense of rejecting Him and petition for His return.  Yeshua made the abundantly clear in Hosea 5 and emphasized it again in Matthew 23.   It doesn't get any simpler than that.  The GT period is not to offer the opportunity for believers to score brownie points with the Lord.  It is to drive the world and especially the Hebrew people to repentance.

But you are welcome to participate in that if you wish. I would not stand in your way.   It somewhat bothers me that you feel the need to go thru that period. It causes me to wonder if you know in whom you have placed your trust.  I know in whom I have placed my trust, and that I will watch all of this from the comfort of the presence of the Lord, as He promised in Isaiah and Paul expounded on.  

There will be those that do come to repentance in the GT period, they will then become saints, and they will indeed suffer martyrdom.  But they went into the GT period as unbelievers.  There is no way to construe from that fact that the body of believers that comprise the Church at the start of the GT period have to go thru it.  Any idea that they do exhibits that the person expressing that idea has no clue what the GT period's purpose is for.

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

OC, there was no levity in my statement, the foolishness (irresponsible act) you are committing is promising believers that they will not face persecution at the hand of the Beast (AC). That will only be true if they physically die before he is revealed. Until 200 years ago such a thing was not taught. If your thinking of some ancient writer (Pseudo Ephriam) or early church father (Cyprian, Irenaeus, Tertullian) whose writing appear to espouse a tenant of pre-tribulationism, I also once believed the pre-trib "experts", however upon personal examination of the writings of these men I found that they expected the church to be persecuted by the Beast (AC). So, the "conflagration", "tribulation", or whatever description they used for that period that we are not appointed unto didn't refer to persecution by the Beast, but to the pouring out of God's wrath. We are told that we are not appointed unto God's wrath in the day of the Lord. But that is not the case with Satan's wrath through the Beast in the great tribulation. Jesus said concerning the sign of His coming:

Mat 24:9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Notice that the word afflicted is the first use of thlipsis in the Matt 24 text. It refers to pressure and is also translated tribulation, trouble, persecution, anguish and burdened. What kind of pressure is it? It is the violent pressure of being hated by all nations and persecuted unto death. Who is being persecuted? Those who identify with Christ Jesus (for my name's sake). The nation of Israel has yet to identify with Jesus Christ. They rejected him at His first coming and 2/3 of them will be slain and the remaining brought through the fire of purification before they call upon the name of the Lord.

OC, you are mixing the two periods of tribulation together. The unprecedented persecution of the Jews and the Elect takes place before Christ's coming at which time He begins to pour out His wrath upon the earth dwellers. This scenario is clear in Paul's teaching to the Thessalonians.

2Th 1:3  We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
2Th 1:4  So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

Notice that Paul praises and encourages them for their faithfulness in the severe persecution that they were suffering. Paul uses both Greek words which indicate pressure and fleeing or being pursued. They were experiencing violent persecution at the hands of the Romans, they were given the choice, choose Caesar and live or Christ and die.

2Th 1:5  Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Their faithfulness is proof that they are worthy of the kingdom of God. Passing the test their faith is shown to be genuine. Jesus said:

Mat 10:28  And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mat 10:29  Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
Mat 10:30  But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Mat 10:31  Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
Mat 10:32  Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 10:33  But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

All the academic Bible knowledge and theological understanding that one may have is of no profit if one ultimately fails the test of true faith. Take the mark and worship the beast and you are lost forever. Confess Jesus before men and He will confess you before the Father.

Let's see Paul's explanation of the order of things associated with Christ's coming.

First God is going to repay those who persecuted His church with tribulation (pressure from Him). Things are going to get unbearably difficult for the earth dwellers who persecuted us. This tribulation is described in Rev 8-9 and 15-16. It is God's wrath poured out without mixture.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

We, the church, will be able to rest from persecution at Christ's revelation with the mighty angels. It is then that we are resurrected, changed, and raptured. Notice Paul links our physical safety with the revelation of Christ, not a secret appearing. The church rests when Jesus in glory reveals Himself to all the unexpecting world in the clouds of the atmospheric heaven with His mighty angels. At which time he sends them to gather us to Him in the clouds.

2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

It is at this time that His wrath begins to fall upon the Christ-rejecting, Beast worshipping, Elect persecuting, earth dwellers. He will be avenging the violent murders of His saints.

2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

The punishment for those who reject Christ and persecute His elect shall be everlasting destruction.

2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

This happens when we see Christ at His appearing. This is our blessed hope even the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.

2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Yes it is the will of God that we suffer for Jesus

The martyrs are told that they must wait for their blood to be avenged. It will be necessary for more faithful believers to die as martyrs. It is God's will that will need to be fulfilled.

Rev 6:9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Your mischaracterization of what I believe when you say I'm looking for believers to score brownie points is more of your foolishness. All I'm doing is quoting Scripture, your beef is with God, the one you claim to worship. These are the words of His apostles and prophets that you are having a problem with. You set yourself against Paul and Christ Himself by what you teach. Yes, millions have joined in this deception, but Praise God, many have had the blinders removed from their eyes and have escaped the pre-trib delusion.

Glory to Jesus Christ

[OldCoot]

11 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

OC, there was no levity in my statement, the foolishness (irresponsible act) you are committing is promising believers that they will not face persecution at the hand of the Beast (AC). That will only be true if they physically die before he is revealed. Until 200 years ago such a thing was not taught. If your thinking of some ancient writer (Pseudo Ephriam) or early church father (Cyprian, Irenaeus, Tertullian) whose writing appear to espouse a tenant of pre-tribulationism, I also once believed the pre-trib "experts", however upon personal examination of the writings of these men I found that they expected the church to be persecuted by the Beast (AC). So, the "conflagration", "tribulation", or whatever description they used for that period that we are not appointed unto didn't refer to persecution by the Beast, but to the pouring out of God's wrath. We are told that we are not appointed unto God's wrath in the day of the Lord. But that is not the case with Satan's wrath through the Beast in the great tribulation. Jesus said concerning the sign of His coming:

Mat 24:9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Notice that the word afflicted is the first use of thlipsis in the Matt 24 text. It refers to pressure and is also translated tribulation, trouble, persecution, anguish and burdened. What kind of pressure is it? It is the violent pressure of being hated by all nations and persecuted unto death. Who is being persecuted? Those who identify with Christ Jesus (for my name's sake). The nation of Israel has yet to identify with Jesus Christ. They rejected him at His first coming and 2/3 of them will be slain and the remaining brought through the fire of purification before they call upon the name of the Lord.

OC, you are mixing the two periods of tribulation together. The unprecedented persecution of the Jews and the Elect takes place before Christ's coming at which time He begins to pour out His wrath upon the earth dwellers. This scenario is clear in Paul's teaching to the Thessalonians.

2Th 1:3  We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
2Th 1:4  So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

Notice that Paul praises and encourages them for their faithfulness in the severe persecution that they were suffering. Paul uses both Greek words which indicate pressure and fleeing or being pursued. They were experiencing violent persecution at the hands of the Romans, they were given the choice, choose Caesar and live or Christ and die.

2Th 1:5  Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Their faithfulness is proof that they are worthy of the kingdom of God. Passing the test their faith is shown to be genuine. Jesus said:

Mat 10:28  And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mat 10:29  Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
Mat 10:30  But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Mat 10:31  Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
Mat 10:32  Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 10:33  But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

All the academic Bible knowledge and theological understanding that one may have is of no profit if one ultimately fails the test of true faith. Take the mark and worship the beast and you are lost forever. Confess Jesus before men and He will confess you before the Father.

Let's see Paul's explanation of the order of things associated with Christ's coming.

First God is going to repay those who persecuted His church with tribulation (pressure from Him). Things are going to get unbearably difficult for the earth dwellers who persecuted us. This tribulation is described in Rev 8-9 and 15-16. It is God's wrath poured out without mixture.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

We, the church, will be able to rest from persecution at Christ's revelation with the mighty angels. It is then that we are resurrected, changed, and raptured. Notice Paul links our physical safety with the revelation of Christ, not a secret appearing. The church rests when Jesus in glory reveals Himself to all the unexpecting world in the clouds of the atmospheric heaven with His mighty angels. At which time he sends them to gather us to Him in the clouds.

2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

It is at this time that His wrath begins to fall upon the Christ-rejecting, Beast worshipping, Elect persecuting, earth dwellers. He will be avenging the violent murders of His saints.

2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

The punishment for those who reject Christ and persecute His elect shall be everlasting destruction.

2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

This happens when we see Christ at His appearing. This is our blessed hope even the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.

2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Yes it is the will of God that we suffer for Jesus

The martyrs are told that they must wait for their blood to be avenged. It will be necessary for more faithful believers to die as martyrs. It is God's will that will need to be fulfilled.

Rev 6:9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Your mischaracterization of what I believe when you say I'm looking for believers to score brownie points is more of your foolishness. All I'm doing is quoting Scripture, your beef is with God, the one you claim to worship. These are the words of His apostles and prophets that you are having a problem with. You set yourself against Paul and Christ Himself by what you teach. Yes, millions have joined in this deception, but Praise God, many have had the blinders removed from their eyes and have escaped the pre-trib delusion.

Glory to Jesus Christ

What is the focus and purpose of the GT period? More specifically, the 70th week of Daniel which is a 7 year period.

Edited February 13, 2019 by OldCoot

[Steve Conley]

2 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

What is the purpose of the GT period?

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

OC, persecution has been the lot of those who will live Godly in Christ Jesus. For the past ~2000 years believers have died for their identification with Christ in every violent and gruesome manner possible. This has been the experience of hundreds 0f millions at the hand of the Romans, Muslims, Communists, and other evil nations, men, and religions. After the man of sin is revealed in the Temple demanding to be worshipped as God the persecution will increase to an unprecedented level in both scope and severity. Today in the West we live in an aberration from the normal experience of true churches throughout the last 2000 years. The persecution has been very light. We have become accustomed to this life of ease absent the overwhelming pressure of violent persecution and have taken it for granted. That will all change in the coming years.

The answer to your question is threefold

Concerning the Dragon (Satan) who gives power (authority) to the Beast, he promulgates this persecution of Israel and the Elect because "he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

Rev 12:12  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Concerning the Church, It is an opportunity to increase our joy when we meet Christ at His revelation. It is an opportunity to demonstrate the power of the Holy Spirit within every true believer to be faithful unto death thereby exhibiting our worthiness of the Kingdom of God. It is a period of practical purification from sin.

1Pe 4:1  Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

1Pe 4:12  Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
1Pe 4:13  But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
1Pe 4:14  If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
1Pe 4:15  But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
1Pe 4:16  Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
1Pe 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18  And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
1Pe 4:19  Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

2Th 1:5  Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Concerning unbelieving Israel, Jacob's trouble is God's discipline with the purpose of turning that unbelieving nation back to Him.

Jer 30:3  For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
Jer 30:4  And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
Jer 30:5  For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
Jer 30:6  Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
Jer 30:7  Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
Jer 30:8  For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
Jer 30:9  But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
Jer 30:10  Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.
Jer 30:11  For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.
Jer 30:12  For thus saith the LORD, Thy bruise is incurable, and thy wound is grievous.
Jer 30:13  There is none to plead thy cause, that thou mayest be bound up: thou hast no healing medicines.
Jer 30:14  All thy lovers have forgotten thee; they seek thee not; for I have wounded thee with the wound of an enemy, with the chastisement of a cruel one, for the multitude of thine iniquity; because thy sins were increased.
Jer 30:15  Why criest thou for thine affliction? thy sorrow is incurable for the multitude of thine iniquity: because thy sins were increased, I have done these things unto thee.
Jer 30:16  Therefore all they that devour thee shall be devoured; and all thine adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity; and they that spoil thee shall be a spoil, and all that prey upon thee will I give for a prey.
Jer 30:17  For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the LORD; because they called thee an Outcast, saying, This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after.
Jer 30:18  Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof.
Jer 30:19  And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry: and I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.
Jer 30:20  Their children also shall be as aforetime, and their congregation shall be established before me, and I will punish all that oppress them.
Jer 30:21  And their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them; and I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me: for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me? saith the LORD.
Jer 30:22  And ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Jer 30:23  Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD goeth forth with fury, a continuing whirlwind: it shall fall with pain upon the head of the wicked.
Jer 30:24  The fierce anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have done it, and until he have performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.

Praise Jesus Christ our Saviour

[OldCoot]

2 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

 

It seems to me that you are just asking this question fecitiously.  What you are missing and what many use a crutch for a defense for a "churchless" GT, is that the Olivet Discourse focuses only on Jews & Judea.   But to whatever degree that is true,  there is a reason: 

*[[Jer 25:29]] KJV* For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.

*[[Rom 2:9]] KJV* Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Just because the GT (along with the AoD) has its origins with the Jews & Judea,  in no way implies that the church is still here.   The wording in Matt 24 and Mark 13 is that the Son of man will appear "in those days", meaning that it is but a short time,  about 3.5 years till the end: 

*[[Mat 24:29]] KJV* Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

*[[Mar 13:24]] KJV* But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

Blessings

The PuP 

If the Olivet Discourse was the only reasoning behind “churchless” GT, you would be correct.

I see it in Isaiah and especially so in Revelation itself which has allusions there back throughout the Prophets, with the Olivet discourse down the list a ways.

[OldCoot]

The conditions you set can be set against any other position also.  Just like there is no verse that specifically uses “trinity”, yet the concept is definitely in scripture.  

There is no verse that says the removal of the righteous is pre-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath, or post-trib.  No one verse either that specifically states an amillenial position either.  

Only inferences can be made from a collection of verses that suggests a position.

Every eschatological position can suffer the death of a thousand conditions.

Anyone who is open to a honest dialogue, I have no problem with.

still waiting for a response from anyone regarding the question I posed on what is the focus and purpose of the Tribulation period, specifically as it might relate to the 70th week of Daniel.

[OldCoot]

Yes, I meant “it” to mean the removal of the righteous, and yes, it can be shown in the Tanakh that this comes before the travails of the Tribulation period start, via the relationship of passages in the Tanakh referenced by the NT.

But before I will go further with that, I would like an answer to the question I posed.  Let’s try and take things one step at a time and not get caught up following all sorts of rabbit trails.

[iamlamad]

20 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

 

 

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Mr. Mad, I've been unable to give any attention to your posts for a few days. I would be interested in your proving that the revelation of the AC is in Rev 11. It appears that is just supposition based upon the idea that there are 3.5 years left in the seventieth week at Rev 12:6. There are parenthetical portions of John's recording of the things which shall be hereafter. Chapters 6-9 and 15-16 are chronological but all the others are not, but are pericopes providing details which fit into the chronological narrative and outside it.

As to your statements concerning the modern Bible translations, the "experts", and the millions of pretribbers. No one can translate the Scriptures without their understanding of Bible doctrine affecting their choice of words used to represent the original text. It is expected that pre-tribbers will translate it consistent with their doctrinal beliefs. If you go back before the teaching of JND, I expect you will find translations that aren't so accommodating to pre-tribulationism. 

Matt 24 records Christ describing the events which precede His coming. There are more than 2 dozen parallels between Christ's description of what precedes His arrival and the gathering of His elect in Matt 24 and Paul's eschatological teaching in 1st and 2nd Thessalonians. I'm sure you can find them if you're interested in truth.

Unlike most pre-tribbers, you do not teach that the day of the Lord nor the seventieth week begins with the 1st seal. You are correct that the day of the Lord begins after the sixth seal is opened, with Christ's glorious appearing taking place after the cosmic sign. However, you do not recognize John's cosmic sign as the same cosmic sign that Christ said immediately follows the great tribulation.

Also, it appears that you do not recognize that great tribulation refers to unprecedented persecution upon the elect by the beast instead of God's wrath upon the elect and the earth dwellers. Here is a real problem for pretribulationists. They teach that God is pouring out His wrath upon His own faithful saints, those who love not their lives unto death. Pre-tribbers have God tribulating (persecuting) His own, how dreadful.

You fail to recognize that the Gentile believers have been made partakers with the believing Israelites of the promises made to the fathers. Believing Gentiles have been graffed in amongst believing Israelites. Because of this, you separate the elect into different groups. Paul said clearly that it is the election (believers from among the Israelites) not the unbelieving descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob receive the promises. It is this election that the believing Gentile is added to. Gentile believers are no more strangers and foreigners but fellowcitizens with the saints and of the household of God. 

You also fail to connect the singular parousia (arrival and continuing presence), epiphania (appearing), and the resurrection/change and rapture all together.

After considering what I can ascertain from your beliefs, I have come to the conclusion that you actually have more things right than the typical pre-tribber. Recognizing roughly the proper location of the rapture and the beginning of the day of the Lord places you far ahead of most. However, your failure to link that which Paul sees at the opening of the fifth seal with the great tribulation forces your misapplication of Christ's words in Matt 24.

Glory be to Jesus Christ

I would be interested in your proving that the revelation of the AC is in Rev 11.  I believe the 7th trumpet will sound to mark the time in heaven where the man of sin enters the temple.  I further believe that Daniel 9:27 will be fulfilled when the man of sin enters the temple. He will pollute the temple and the daily sacrifices will have to cease at that moment. This event will be the abomination of desolation that Jesus spoke of, and told those in Judea to flee when they see it. 

We find this fleeing in 12:6. I backed up verse by verse looking for a marker. The first real marker I came to was the 7th trumpet. I think 12:6 will take place maybe two seconds after the man of sin declares he is God. That is human reaction time.  It appears that is just supposition  No, not supposition.  You were not with me when I was reading Daniel 9: verse 27. When my eyes and my mind got to the word "midst" suddenly God spoke to me: "you could find that exact midpoint 'clearly marked' in the book of Revelation." So I looked and I am convinced I found what He sent me to find. I asked Him how I would find it, and He told me it will be very close to the 5 mentions of the  1/2 year period of time mentioned in Revelation - 5 different times. That would include chapters 11, 12, and 13.  (As an afterthought He said I could also find the entire 70th week "clearly marked" and suddenly I know why: God used the same marker for the start and ending.)

Chapters 6-9 and 15-16 are chronological but all the others are not, but are pericopes providing details which fit into the chronological narrative and outside it. That is CERTAINLY not the way I would have written it. I have maintained for years that Revelation is extremely chronological. However, considering that from chapter 13 on there are 5 separate countdowns to the end, John did the best possible to keep in Chronological.  I guess we could say 6 paths to the end of the week, because John's narrative is another path. When things are concurrent, it is simply impossible to write them chronologically.  However, the 5 paths to the end have staggered beginnings so John wrote them in the that order. 

Next, there are a few parentheses. For example, in writing of the two Witnesses, verses 4 through 13 are written as a parenthesis: not in John's chronology. As written, if someone does not recognize this parenthesis, they imagine the two witnesses are killed before the 7th trumpet sounds. It is not true! They are killed just 3.5 days before the end of the week - at the 7th vial. 

No one can translate the Scriptures without their understanding of Bible doctrine affecting their choice of words  I am sure this is true, but I also suspect they would deny it!  ?

I'm sure you can find them if you're interested in truth.  When two different gatherings take place, OF COURSE there will be similarities! But the similarities does not make them the very same gathering. It is the differences that make them two different gatherings. Do you imagine I am NOT interested in the truth?

with Christ's glorious appearing taking place after the cosmic sign.  Whoa Back! It is His coming hidden in a cloud! No one EVER has proven that Paul's coming in 1 thes. will be His coming where "every eye will see Him." When those who are caught up see Him, I am sure He will appear glorious. But I don't think the world will see Him. 

Rev. 6 does speak of cosmic signs, aligned with Joel 2, coming BEFORE the Day of the Lord. However, if we read 1 Thes 5 closely, we see that His coming (only to the clouds) must be BEFORE the 6th seal comes, NOT AFTER. The earthquake there will come from the dead in Christ rising. (The earthquake will be Paul's "sudden destruction."

However, you do not recognize John's cosmic sign as the same cosmic sign that Christ said immediately follows the great tribulation.  Of course not! They are two different signs that come over 7 years apart: and they ARE different.  The signs following the tribulation are speaking of total darkness! Neither the sun or moon will be visible. I am sure you know that one of the vials is darkness.  

Did you know that Joel shows us BOTH of these signs: one for the coming Day of the Lord, and the next for the coming of Christ? 

Joel 2:³¹ The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

Joel 3:

⁵ The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

¹⁶ The Lord also shall roar out of Zion...

Notice that in the first sign, for the DAY, the moon is visible: red in color. However, in the second sign, the one after the trib, both the sun and moon are dark. That is speaking of total darkness. I was in Idaho after Mount St. Helens blew her top. It got dark and night in the afternoon. NOTHING in the sky was visible!  It could be a volcano, but God can just turn off the sun for a season if He chose.  Notice, in Joel 3, Christ as return to earth. 

If we just leave Revelation as written, we stay out of trouble: first we get the 6th seal sign, then the 70th week begins with the 7th seal, then the midpoint with the 7th trumpet, then the end with the 7th vial. Then finally in chapter 19 Jesus returns. So IF John had seen the last cosmic sign and wrote it, it would be in chapter 19. He did not see it nor write of it. But Matthew 24 and Joel 3 tell us where in John's narrative it would be. 

What do we see then? Chapters 7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18 - all BETWEEN these two times the cosmic signs will be shown.  So OF COURSE I disagree with prewrath thought here: it is simply not scriptural.

it appears that you do not recognize that great tribulation refers to unprecedented persecution upon the elect by the beast instead of God's wrath upon the elect and the earth dwellers.   Notice, please that the rapture will come a moment before the 6th seal, so BEFORE God begins to pour out His wrath.

Notice please, where JESUS tells us the days of GT will begin:  Mathew 24:

²¹ For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

WHEN? AFTER the man of sin tribulates and divides the week into two halves!  In other words, some time a few seconds before Rev. 12:6.  In fact, the beheading will not begin until AFTER chapter 14.  Now, hold onto something: prewrath insists the days of GT are in the seals! They are MILES off from truth. Prewrath must rewrite most of Revelation to make it fit their twisted theories.  Did you just not think that what will CAUSE those days of GT will be people forced to worship the image and take the mark - or lose their head?  God sends His warning about this in chapter 14, PROVING those days have not begun yet on earth in chapter 14!  And all this mess and error simply because Rosenthal and Van Kampen did not recognize that the signs in the sun and moon will be shown TWICE.

Steve, I have a novel idea: throw it all into the trash, and start over, this time just following John's chronology. You would then be RIGHT ON in truth. 

If you just read John and believe: God's wrath begins in chapter 6 and CONTINUES ON through chapter 16 - the entire 70th week is God's wrath poured out: the trumpet judgement, then the vials. 

Where in this mix does the devil (behind the Beast) begin to vent his anger? It is AFTER THE MIDPOINT of the week. Jesus TOLD us this.  So in Revelation, Satan's wrath will begin at the midpoint, the 7th trumpet in chapter 11, and continue on through the week. 

Therefore the TRUTH IS: God's wrath and Satan's anger are concurrent - happening at the same time! Therefore it is error to imagine they can be separated.  In fact, God will pour out the vials to SHORTEN those days of GT, proving that they are concurrent.

Because of this, you separate the elect into different groups.  I DON'T separate them, Paul does, the scriptures do. Did you not read that the rapture is for those IN CHRIST? For the most part, they will be GENTILE believers. Jews COULD be in on it, but for the most part, they are still blinded. So according to PAUL, not me, those IN CHRIST are caught up to heaven pretrib. The Jews, for the most part, will go through the 70th week: it is for them anyway. Steve, you amaze me.

You also fail to connect the singular parousia (arrival and continuing presence)  you fail to recognize John 14: that He comes and GOES BACK TO HEAVEN. This is proven absolutely because He is IN HEAVEN in chapter 19, before the marriage. He has been there all through the 70th week.  Again I am amazed. 

However, your failure to link that which Paul sees at the opening of the fifth seal with the great tribulation forces your misapplication of Christ's words in Matt 24.  No, it is prewrath, rearranging most of Revelation to fit a false theory. John, through the Holy Spirit, wrote of future events in the very order they will take place. I believe Him. It seems prewrathers don't. They insist on rearranging. 

I guess you never read it, but I will tell it: Van Kampen called up Rosenthal and said "I've FOUND IT!"  He had been looking for some kind of key. What was it he found? He found John 2 and and Matthew 24, the cosmic signs, and imagined they are speaking of the same event!  So he reasoned that the proper order must be "the trib," then the signs, then THE DAY  and His coming....  They missed it big time and allegedly ruined their ministries. And they started a HUGE error in the church. 

Edited February 14, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

OC, persecution has been the lot of those who will live Godly in Christ Jesus. For the past ~2000 years believers have died for their identification with Christ in every violent and gruesome manner possible. This has been the experience of hundreds 0f millions at the hand of the Romans, Muslims, Communists, and other evil nations, men, and religions. After the man of sin is revealed in the Temple demanding to be worshipped as God the persecution will increase to an unprecedented level in both scope and severity. Today in the West we live in an aberration from the normal experience of true churches throughout the last 2000 years. The persecution has been very light. We have become accustomed to this life of ease absent the overwhelming pressure of violent persecution and have taken it for granted. That will all change in the coming years.

The answer to your question is threefold

Concerning the Dragon (Satan) who gives power (authority) to the Beast, he promulgates this persecution of Israel and the Elect because "he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

Rev 12:12  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Concerning the Church, It is an opportunity to increase our joy when we meet Christ at His revelation. It is an opportunity to demonstrate the power of the Holy Spirit within every true believer to be faithful unto death thereby exhibiting our worthiness of the Kingdom of God. It is a period of practical purification from sin.

1Pe 4:1  Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

1Pe 4:12  Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
1Pe 4:13  But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
1Pe 4:14  If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
1Pe 4:15  But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
1Pe 4:16  Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
1Pe 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18  And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
1Pe 4:19  Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

2Th 1:5  Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Concerning unbelieving Israel, Jacob's trouble is God's discipline with the purpose of turning that unbelieving nation back to Him.

Jer 30:3  For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
Jer 30:4  And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
Jer 30:5  For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
Jer 30:6  Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
Jer 30:7  Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
Jer 30:8  For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
Jer 30:9  But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
Jer 30:10  Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.
Jer 30:11  For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.
Jer 30:12  For thus saith the LORD, Thy bruise is incurable, and thy wound is grievous.
Jer 30:13  There is none to plead thy cause, that thou mayest be bound up: thou hast no healing medicines.
Jer 30:14  All thy lovers have forgotten thee; they seek thee not; for I have wounded thee with the wound of an enemy, with the chastisement of a cruel one, for the multitude of thine iniquity; because thy sins were increased.
Jer 30:15  Why criest thou for thine affliction? thy sorrow is incurable for the multitude of thine iniquity: because thy sins were increased, I have done these things unto thee.
Jer 30:16  Therefore all they that devour thee shall be devoured; and all thine adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity; and they that spoil thee shall be a spoil, and all that prey upon thee will I give for a prey.
Jer 30:17  For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the LORD; because they called thee an Outcast, saying, This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after.
Jer 30:18  Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof.
Jer 30:19  And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry: and I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.
Jer 30:20  Their children also shall be as aforetime, and their congregation shall be established before me, and I will punish all that oppress them.
Jer 30:21  And their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them; and I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me: for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me? saith the LORD.
Jer 30:22  And ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Jer 30:23  Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD goeth forth with fury, a continuing whirlwind: it shall fall with pain upon the head of the wicked.
Jer 30:24  The fierce anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have done it, and until he have performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.

Praise Jesus Christ our Saviour

I think  it could be answered much more simply: God's purpose in the 70th week of Daniel's is to totally shatter the power of Jacob's descendants until their IDF is gone, and their ONLY hope is God. In other words, to bring to to a place of complete hopelessness UNLESS God moves. 

On the other hand, the purpose of the Day of the Lord is to destroy the world and the sinners in the world.  Strange, but the 70th week is found INSIDE the Day of the Lord.