Why Pretrib Logic Fails

[Montana Marv]

8 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

OC, persecution has been the lot of those who will live Godly in Christ Jesus. For the past ~2000 years believers have died for their identification with Christ in every violent and gruesome manner possible. This has been the experience of hundreds 0f millions at the hand of the Romans, Muslims, Communists, and other evil nations, men, and religions. After the man of sin is revealed in the Temple demanding to be worshipped as God the persecution will increase to an unprecedented level in both scope and severity. Today in the West we live in an aberration from the normal experience of true churches throughout the last 2000 years. The persecution has been very light. We have become accustomed to this life of ease absent the overwhelming pressure of violent persecution and have taken it for granted. That will all change in the coming years.

The answer to your question is threefold

Concerning the Dragon (Satan) who gives power (authority) to the Beast, he promulgates this persecution of Israel and the Elect because "he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

Here you have a Doctrinal Issue.  Satan stands before the Throne in Heaven accusing Believers day and night.  When?  Since the beginning of time, especially Job.  But especially the Bride.  That is why we have received the Counselor, Comforter, the Holy Spirit.  How can Satan accuse the Brethren from Heaven, if he has been thrown to earth.  He cannot.  The Bride is gone. The Bride is as One (all accused by Satan in Heaven), not Two (those assaulted by Satan on earth).  We are not the offspring of Israel, yet Assyria my handiwork, and Egypt my people (Isa 19:24) could be those assaulted by Satan (Rev 12:17), besides Israel.

Rev 12:12  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Concerning the Church, It is an opportunity to increase our joy when we meet Christ at His revelation. It is an opportunity to demonstrate the power of the Holy Spirit within every true believer to be faithful unto death thereby exhibiting our worthiness of the Kingdom of God. It is a period of practical purification from sin.

This is dead wrong.  It(the GT)  becomes an opportunity to increase our joy.  Our JOY is completed in Jesus Christ.  It is not a period of practical purification from sin as you state.  God sees us perfect through Jesus Christ His only Son, this is our purification.  Not going through a specific test or trial.  If you think you must suffer martyrdom, go to the Mid-East and see if you are worthy, if you don't make it through that test, why go further. A lot of people have the talk, but they do not have the walk.

1Pe 4:1  Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

1Pe 4:12  Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
1Pe 4:13  But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
1Pe 4:14  If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
1Pe 4:15  But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
1Pe 4:16  Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
1Pe 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18  And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
1Pe 4:19  Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

2Th 1:5  Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Concerning unbelieving Israel, Jacob's trouble is God's discipline with the purpose of turning that unbelieving nation back to Him.

Jer 30:3  For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
Jer 30:4  And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
Jer 30:5  For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
Jer 30:6  Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
Jer 30:7  Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
Jer 30:8  For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
Jer 30:9  But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
Jer 30:10  Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.
Jer 30:11  For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.
Jer 30:12  For thus saith the LORD, Thy bruise is incurable, and thy wound is grievous.
Jer 30:13  There is none to plead thy cause, that thou mayest be bound up: thou hast no healing medicines.
Jer 30:14  All thy lovers have forgotten thee; they seek thee not; for I have wounded thee with the wound of an enemy, with the chastisement of a cruel one, for the multitude of thine iniquity; because thy sins were increased.
Jer 30:15  Why criest thou for thine affliction? thy sorrow is incurable for the multitude of thine iniquity: because thy sins were increased, I have done these things unto thee.
Jer 30:16  Therefore all they that devour thee shall be devoured; and all thine adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity; and they that spoil thee shall be a spoil, and all that prey upon thee will I give for a prey.
Jer 30:17  For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the LORD; because they called thee an Outcast, saying, This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after.
Jer 30:18  Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof.
Jer 30:19  And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry: and I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.
Jer 30:20  Their children also shall be as aforetime, and their congregation shall be established before me, and I will punish all that oppress them.
Jer 30:21  And their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them; and I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me: for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me? saith the LORD.
Jer 30:22  And ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Jer 30:23  Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD goeth forth with fury, a continuing whirlwind: it shall fall with pain upon the head of the wicked.
Jer 30:24  The fierce anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have done it, and until he have performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.

Praise Jesus Christ our Saviour

 

My comments is Red above;

Most of what you say is just ordinary Christian living.  It is past and it is now.  You have no idea of what future you have, why go on this holier than me approach.  Are you trying to build bigger barns for all you rewards, you cannot even guarantee what you will be doing a week from now, let alone a year from now. Wow, you may even die, like many have already died and still miss-out on the GT.  What benefit is the GT to those who have died before us.  Did they loose some rewards.

Praise be to God who chose us before the creation of the World, and you say some of us must suffer during the GT.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

I would be interested in your proving that the revelation of the AC is in Rev 11.  I believe the 7th trumpet will sound to mark the time in heaven where the man of sin enters the temple.  I further believe that Daniel 9:27 will be fulfilled when the man of sin enters the temple. He will pollute the temple and the daily sacrifices will have to cease at that moment. This event will be the abomination of desolation that Jesus spoke of, and told those in Judea to flee when they see it. 

We find this fleeing in 12:6. I backed up verse by verse looking for a marker. The first real marker I came to was the 7th trumpet. I think 12:6 will take place maybe two seconds after the man of sin declares he is God. That is human reaction time.  It appears that is just supposition  No, not supposition.  You were not with me when I was reading Daniel 9: verse 27. When my eyes and my mind got to the word "midst" suddenly God spoke to me: "you could find that exact midpoint 'clearly marked' in the book of Revelation." So I looked and I am convinced I found what He sent me to find. I asked Him how I would find it, and He told me it will be very close to the 5 mentions of the  1/2 year period of time mentioned in Revelation - 5 different times. That would include chapters 11, 12, and 13.  (As an afterthought He said I could also find the entire 70th week "clearly marked" and suddenly I know why: God used the same marker for the start and ending.)

Chapters 6-9 and 15-16 are chronological but all the others are not, but are pericopes providing details which fit into the chronological narrative and outside it. That is CERTAINLY not the way I would have written it. I have maintained for years that Revelation is extremely chronological. However, considering that from chapter 13 on there are 5 separate countdowns to the end, John did the best possible to keep in Chronological.  I guess we could say 6 paths to the end of the week, because John's narrative is another path. When things are concurrent, it is simply impossible to write them chronologically.  However, the 5 paths to the end have staggered beginnings so John wrote them in the that order. 

Next, there are a few parentheses. For example, in writing of the two Witnesses, verses 4 through 13 are written as a parenthesis: not in John's chronology. As written, if someone does not recognize this parenthesis, they imagine the two witnesses are killed before the 7th trumpet sounds. It is not true! They are killed just 3.5 days before the end of the week - at the 7th vial. 

No one can translate the Scriptures without their understanding of Bible doctrine affecting their choice of words  I am sure this is true, but I also suspect they would deny it!  ?

I'm sure you can find them if you're interested in truth.  When two different gatherings take place, OF COURSE there will be similarities! But the similarities does not make them the very same gathering. It is the differences that make them two different gatherings. Do you imagine I am NOT interested in the truth?

with Christ's glorious appearing taking place after the cosmic sign.  Whoa Back! It is His coming hidden in a cloud! No one EVER has proven that Paul's coming in 1 thes. will be His coming where "every eye will see Him." When those who are caught up see Him, I am sure He will appear glorious. But I don't think the world will see Him. 

Rev. 6 does speak of cosmic signs, aligned with Joel 2, coming BEFORE the Day of the Lord. However, if we read 1 Thes 5 closely, we see that His coming (only to the clouds) must be BEFORE the 6th seal comes, NOT AFTER. The earthquake there will come from the dead in Christ rising. (The earthquake will be Paul's "sudden destruction."

However, you do not recognize John's cosmic sign as the same cosmic sign that Christ said immediately follows the great tribulation.  Of course not! They are two different signs that come over 7 years apart: and they ARE different.  The signs following the tribulation are speaking of total darkness! Neither the sun or moon will be visible. I am sure you know that one of the vials is darkness.  

Did you know that Joel shows us BOTH of these signs: one for the coming Day of the Lord, and the next for the coming of Christ? 

Joel 2:³¹ The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

Joel 3:

⁵ The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

¹⁶ The Lord also shall roar out of Zion...

Notice that in the first sign, for the DAY, the moon is visible: red in color. However, in the second sign, the one after the trib, both the sun and moon are dark. That is speaking of total darkness. I was in Idaho after Mount St. Helens blew her top. It got dark and night in the afternoon. NOTHING in the sky was visible!  It could be a volcano, but God can just turn off the sun for a season if He chose.  Notice, in Joel 3, Christ as return to earth. 

If we just leave Revelation as written, we stay out of trouble: first we get the 6th seal sign, then the 70th week begins with the 7th seal, then the midpoint with the 7th trumpet, then the end with the 7th vial. Then finally in chapter 19 Jesus returns. So IF John had seen the last cosmic sign and wrote it, it would be in chapter 19. He did not see it nor write of it. But Matthew 24 and Joel 3 tell us where in John's narrative it would be. 

What do we see then? Chapters 7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18 - all BETWEEN these two times the cosmic signs will be shown.  So OF COURSE I disagree with prewrath thought here: it is simply not scriptural.

it appears that you do not recognize that great tribulation refers to unprecedented persecution upon the elect by the beast instead of God's wrath upon the elect and the earth dwellers.   Notice, please that the rapture will come a moment before the 6th seal, so BEFORE God begins to pour out His wrath.

Notice please, where JESUS tells us the days of GT will begin:  Mathew 24:

²¹ For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

WHEN? AFTER the man of sin tribulates and divides the week into two halves!  In other words, some time a few seconds before Rev. 12:6.  In fact, the beheading will not begin until AFTER chapter 14.  Now, hold onto something: prewrath insists the days of GT are in the seals! They are MILES off from truth. Prewrath must rewrite most of Revelation to make it fit their twisted theories.  Did you just not think that what will CAUSE those days of GT will be people forced to worship the image and take the mark - or lose their head?  God sends His warning about this in chapter 14, PROVING those days have not begun yet on earth in chapter 14!  And all this mess and error simply because Rosenthal and Van Kampen did not recognize that the signs in the sun and moon will be shown TWICE.

Steve, I have a novel idea: throw it all into the trash, and start over, this time just following John's chronology. You would then be RIGHT ON in truth. 

If you just read John and believe: God's wrath begins in chapter 6 and CONTINUES ON through chapter 16 - the entire 70th week is God's wrath poured out: the trumpet judgement, then the vials. 

Where in this mix does the devil (behind the Beast) begin to vent his anger? It is AFTER THE MIDPOINT of the week. Jesus TOLD us this.  So in Revelation, Satan's wrath will begin at the midpoint, the 7th trumpet in chapter 11, and continue on through the week. 

Therefore the TRUTH IS: God's wrath and Satan's anger are concurrent - happening at the same time! Therefore it is error to imagine they can be separated.  In fact, God will pour out the vials to SHORTEN those days of GT, proving that they are concurrent.

Because of this, you separate the elect into different groups.  I DON'T separate them, Paul does, the scriptures do. Did you not read that the rapture is for those IN CHRIST? For the most part, they will be GENTILE believers. Jews COULD be in on it, but for the most part, they are still blinded. So according to PAUL, not me, those IN CHRIST are caught up to heaven pretrib. The Jews, for the most part, will go through the 70th week: it is for them anyway. Steve, you amaze me.

You also fail to connect the singular parousia (arrival and continuing presence)  you fail to recognize John 14: that He comes and GOES BACK TO HEAVEN. This is proven absolutely because He is IN HEAVEN in chapter 19, before the marriage. He has been there all through the 70th week.  Again I am amazed. 

However, your failure to link that which Paul sees at the opening of the fifth seal with the great tribulation forces your misapplication of Christ's words in Matt 24.  No, it is prewrath, rearranging most of Revelation to fit a false theory. John, through the Holy Spirit, wrote of future events in the very order they will take place. I believe Him. It seems prewrathers don't. They insist on rearranging. 

I guess you never read it, but I will tell it: Van Kampen called up Rosenthal and said "I've FOUND IT!"  He had been looking for some kind of key. What was it he found? He found John 2 and and Matthew 24, the cosmic signs, and imagined they are speaking of the same event!  So he reasoned that the proper order must be "the trib," then the signs, then THE DAY  and His coming....  They missed it big time and allegedly ruined their ministries. And they started a HUGE error in the church. 

I will add a little fuel to the fire.  You are spot on, I am just going pile on a little in the discussion.  Hitting on Revelation 12.

1) Most scholars and expositors agree that the Woman of Revelation 12 represents Israel...  the stars the twelve tribes.

It is hard to view otherwise since she is the one who is giving birth to the male child that will rule the nations. So that leaves out the goofy idea by some over the many years that the woman in the Church.  I have even heard some recent expositors still make that claim.  But it seems hard to figure out that the  Church gives birth to the Messiah.  

2) The male child

Many rightly see the Messiah here.  I would concur.  But I believe that it is much deeper than that.  It is also the Church, the body of Messiah.  As a side note, some goofy folks over the years felt this male child was the Emperor Constantine.  But most of those who did that also held that the woman is the Church.

a) the male child is caught up-Harpazo-forcibly snatched up to the throne as soon as it is born.  

Yeshua was never harpazo-forcibly snatched up.  He stated clearly in Hosea 5 that He will return to His place.  Harpazo is never used to describe Yeshua's ascension.  He returned under His own authority.  He was not forcibly snatched up by the Father, Holy Spirit, or an over aggressive angel.

b) Yeshua was never caught up to the throne after He was born.  

He and His parents were caught away to Egypt to avoid Herod, but Egypt last I checked is not the throne room of Yahweh at any time in history including future.

c) the scripture is replete with comments that the believers make up the body of Messiah, and that He is the head.  Simple enough

d) and who is it that rules with a rod of iron?  

Of course, Yeshua..... but..... according to Revelation 2, Yeshua says that all those who overcome (aka... the Church) will rule with a rod of iron over the nations... just as He has received from the father.  Keep in mind that head/body thing going on with Messiah and the Church.

3) The Tanakh has several passages that show that Israel will give birth at the beginning of the birth pains, and the birth pains are the beginning of sorrows or the final tribulation period.  This mirrors Revelation 12.   And that what she is giving birth to is a corporate group and nation.  And what does good old Pete say about this? In 1 Peter 2:9 the believers are called a holy nation.  Seems similar to me.

4) There is no literal time gap expressed in Revelation between the woman giving birth and her fleeing into the wilderness.

Not even some mid point or pre-wrath time stamp.  Yet, many passages in the Tanakh that talk about corporate Jacob (Israel) giving birth always state that it is before the major events of the end times calamities start, insinuating a pre-trib concept....

Isaiah 66:7-8 “Before she was in labor, she gave birth;
Before her pain came,
She delivered a male child.
8 Who has heard such a thing?
Who has seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day?
Or shall a nation be born at once?
For as soon as Zion (Israel...the Woman) was in labor,
She gave birth to her children

No, that is not the birth of modern Israel.  Israel doesn't give birth to Israel.  Israel gives birth to the male child, and more so, the body of Messiah, the church, which is a holy nation according to Peter, and is immediately caught up to the throne.

Jeremiah 30:6-7 Ask now, and see,
Whether a man is ever in labor with child?
So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins
Like a woman in labor,
And all faces turned pale?
7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob's trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.

Good 'ol Jer is clearly associating the birth or labor pains with the tribulation period.

The Tanakh is loaded with allusion to the birth pains, labor pains, birth of a nation and a child by Israel, etc which all fit the Revelation 12 passage about the woman, labor, and child.   And taking the many Tanakh passages that talk of these things, it shows that Revelation is not linear and chronological in order and that the birth is at the beginning of sorrows or the tribulation period and most definitely well before the woman flees into the wilderness to escape the False Messiah / Antichrist.  

One can fudge around and maybe get close to a mid trib position without actually pulling it off, but the myriad of other positions that dispute the pre-trib position fall flat.  And boy, except for a few verses of Revelation and one verse from Peter, we haven't really dug into the NT yet! And if I posted all the OT verses that apply to this topic, we wouldn't get to the NT for quite a while.

And many reputable reformers, expositors, and scholars for the last 500 years have seen the same thing.   Theodor Beza (Beza Bible and Geneva Bible contributor), Hanserd Knollys, Matthew Poole, Matthew Henry (the well known Matthew Henry Commentaries), John Wesley, William Kelly, G. H. Pember, Richard Chester, Charles Stanley (no, not the one on T.V. but the English evangelist), Edward Dennett, Walter Thomas Prideaux Wolston, H.A. Ironside, William Biederwolf, William Pettingill, Charles "Chuck" Missler, Barton Johnson, Arthur Bloomfield, David Wilkerson, Thomas Blackburn Baines, Charles Henry Mackintosh, and each of the three guys to did the well known Jaimieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary.

And so many folks think that Darby started all this pre-trib stuff.  Darby was a late bloomer.

Edited February 14, 2019 by OldCoot

[Kristin]

I’ve read much of this post. Certainly pre trib prophecy doesn’t fail. I see Matthew 24 as the 2nd coming, not the Rapture. If there is no pre trib rapture, then Paul lied and we ARE appointed to wrath. Maranatha. 

Edited February 14, 2019 by Kristin

[iamlamad]

59 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

I will add a little fuel to the fire.  You are spot on, I am just going pile on a little in the discussion.  Hitting on Revelation 12.

1) Most scholars and expositors agree that the Woman of Revelation 12 represents Israel...  the stars the twelve tribes.

It is hard to view otherwise since she is the one who is giving birth to the male child that will rule the nations. So that leaves out the goofy idea by some over the many years that the woman in the Church.  I have even heard some recent expositors still make that claim.  But it seems hard to figure out that the  Church gives birth to the Messiah.  

2) The male child

Many rightly see the Messiah here.  I would concur.  But I believe that it is much deeper than that.  It is also the Church, the body of Messiah.  As a side note, some goofy folks over the years felt this male child was the Emperor Constantine.  But most of those who did that also held that the woman is the Church.

a) the male child is caught up-Harpazo-forcibly snatched up to the throne as soon as it is born.  

Yeshua was never harpazo-forcibly snatched up.  He stated clearly in Hosea 5 that He will return to His place.  Harpazo is never used to describe Yeshua's ascension.  He returned under His own authority.  He was not forcibly snatched up by the Father, Holy Spirit, or an over aggressive angel.

b) Yeshua was never caught up to the throne after He was born.  

He and His parents were caught away to Egypt to avoid Herod, but Egypt last I checked is not the throne room of Yahweh at any time in history including future.

c) the scripture is replete with comments that the believers make up the body of Messiah, and that He is the head.  Simple enough

d) and who is it that rules with a rod of iron?  

Of course, Yeshua..... but..... according to Revelation 2, Yeshua says that all those who overcome (aka... the Church) will rule with a rod of iron over the nations... just as He has received from the father.  Keep in mind that head/body thing going on with Messiah and the Church.

3) The Tanakh has several passages that show that Israel will give birth at the beginning of the birth pains, and the birth pains are the beginning of sorrows or the final tribulation period.  This mirrors Revelation 12.   And that what she is giving birth to is a corporate group and nation.  And what does good old Pete say about this? In 1 Peter 2:9 the believers are called a holy nation.  Seems similar to me.

4) There is no literal time gap expressed in Revelation between the woman giving birth and her fleeing into the wilderness.

Not even some mid point or pre-wrath time stamp.  Yet, many passages in the Tanakh that talk about corporate Jacob (Israel) giving birth always state that it is before the major events of the end times calamities start, insinuating a pre-trib concept....

Isaiah 66:7-8 “Before she was in labor, she gave birth;
Before her pain came,
She delivered a male child.
8 Who has heard such a thing?
Who has seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day?
Or shall a nation be born at once?
For as soon as Zion (Israel...the Woman) was in labor,
She gave birth to her children

No, that is not the birth of modern Israel.  Israel doesn't give birth to Israel.  Israel gives birth to the male child, and more so, the body of Messiah, the church, which is a holy nation according to Peter, and is immediately caught up to the throne.

Jeremiah 30:6-7 Ask now, and see,
Whether a man is ever in labor with child?
So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins
Like a woman in labor,
And all faces turned pale?
7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob's trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.

Good 'ol Jer is clearly associating the birth or labor pains with the tribulation period.

The Tanakh is loaded with allusion to the birth pains, labor pains, birth of a nation and a child by Israel, etc which all fit the Revelation 12 passage about the woman, labor, and child.   And taking the many Tanakh passages that talk of these things, it shows that Revelation is not linear and chronological in order and that the birth is at the beginning of sorrows or the tribulation period and most definitely well before the woman flees into the wilderness to escape the False Messiah / Antichrist.  

One can fudge around and maybe get close to a mid trib position without actually pulling it off, but the myriad of other positions that dispute the pre-trib position fall flat.  And boy, except for a few verses of Revelation and one verse from Peter, we haven't really dug into the NT yet! And if I posted all the OT verses that apply to this topic, we wouldn't get to the NT for quite a while.

And many reputable reformers, expositors, and scholars for the last 500 years have seen the same thing.   Theodor Beza (Beza Bible and Geneva Bible contributor), Hanserd Knollys, Matthew Poole, Matthew Henry (the well known Matthew Henry Commentaries), John Wesley, William Kelly, G. H. Pember, Richard Chester, Charles Stanley (no, not the one on T.V. but the English evangelist), Edward Dennett, Walter Thomas Prideaux Wolston, H.A. Ironside, William Biederwolf, William Pettingill, Charles "Chuck" Missler, Barton Johnson, Arthur Bloomfield, David Wilkerson, Thomas Blackburn Baines, Charles Henry Mackintosh, and each of the three guys to did the well known Jaimieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary.

And so many folks think that Darby started all this pre-trib stuff.  Darby was a late bloomer.

You are spot on. I will tell you what Jesus said to me: his words:

"Chapter 12 was Me Introducing John to the dragon - and in particular what the dragon would be doing during the second half of the week. I chose to show John what the dragon did when I was born.  Those first five verses were a 'history lesson' for John." 

He said more, but this is all I am going to write. It shows us exactly what those first five verses are about: what the dragon did when Jesus was born. He persuaded King Herod to murder all the male babies under two years in Bethlehem.  it shows us that the first 5 verses of chapter 12 are written as a parenthesis. They have no bearing on the midpoint of the 70th week. They are about the life of Christ - summed up in one verse! OF COURSE the "woman" is Israel. Jesus came from Israel. "The church" does not live in Judea and there will be mo place to run except for those in Judea.

There is no time gap because verses 1-5 are a parenthesis. The truth is, verse 6, the fleeing, will be only a few seconds after the abomination.

Edited February 14, 2019 by iamlamad

[Retrobyter]

21 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Why do you assume I fear death?  I just don't wish to be left behind when He comes for His own.  You are right; there is no sting in death! Not for a believer. 

Let's count:

He came to die. That is one coming.

He is coming for His saints, to take us to the homes He has prepared: that will be His second coming.  (However, here He only comes to the air. So this verse may well be for His chapter 19 coming.)

Seven years later, He will come with the armies of heaven: that will be his THIRD coming. 

Shalom, iamlamad.

Sorry, but those are the wrong reasons for His comings.

His first coming was to come as the Suffering and Dying Messiah, haMashiyach Ben Yosef = the Messiah Son of Joseph (as in the Genesis "Joseph").

His second coming is to come as the Victorious and Reigning Messiah, haMashiyach Ben Daviyd = the Messiah Son of David.

You've added a "coming" that doesn't exist! The "seven-year period," a.k.a. the "seventieth Week of Daniel 9," does not exist for that purpose. Both of your last two "comings" are really just one. They happen successively!

Again, John 14:1-3 doesn't say that He's coming back to take us anywhere! Look at it again, CAREFULLY:

John 14:1-3 (KJV)

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

What Yeshua` said was that He would come again, and receive His disciples to Himself, He does NOT say that they (we) are all going back to where He just came from! Instead, He told them that they would be with Him from that point on, WHEREVER He will be! HE'S JUST GOT BACK TO EARTH, and THIS TIME, He's going to be the Victorious and Reigning Messiah! Now, where would He reign if not from Jerusalem, Israel?! Who would He reign over first if not the children of Israel?! Who of the children of Israel would He reign over first if not the children of Yhudah ("Judah"), the Jews?!

The homes that He has prepared for us are in the New Jerusalem that descends to the New Earth (which is a re-making of this current Earth), as revealed to us in Revelation 21:1-22:5! Look at the first few verses:

Revelaton 21:1-4 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven (sky, atmosphere) and a new earth (ground, land): for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (out of the sky, i.e., LANDING), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle (tent) of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

THAT is when our new homes are DELIVERED TO US!

In the meantime, after the Messiah returns and before the New Earth is formed, we will be in the Messiah's Kingdom, "ruling and reigning with Him!"

Revelation 20:4-6 (KJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ (the Messiah) a thousand years. 5 (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ (the Messiah), and shall reign with him (the Messiah) a thousand years.

To understand this Millennial Reign of the Messiah, one must turn to the Messiah's parables about the future Kingdom:

Matthew 13:31-32 (KJV)

31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,

"The kingdom of heaven (the Kingdom from the sky) is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: 
32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof."

This is talking about the GROWTH of that Kingdom! It doesn't start out, "BANG!" a FULL-GROWN Kingdom that governs the whole earth, immediately when the Messiah returns! It takes TIME to grow, hence the need for a THOUSAND YEARS! It's reminiscent of Nebuchadnezzar's vision:

Daniel 2:31-35, 44-45 (KJV)

31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible. 32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, 33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. 34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

...

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. 45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Thus, the Kingdom from the God of the skies (Hebrew: haashaamayim) is represented by "the stone that was cut out of the mountain without hands," and it shall become "a great mountain, and filled the whole earth." This, too, apparently will take time to accomplish.

We also read the parable of the leaven, although this is more about the Kingdom's INFLUENCE over the world, rather than its size:

Matthew 13:33 (KJV)

33 Another parable spake he unto them;

"The kingdom of heaven (The Kingdom from the sky)  is like unto leaven (a leavening agent, like yeast), which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened."

We're not told what the three measures of meal represent, but it is simply a LOT of flour!

The bottom line is this: His Kingdom will TAKE TIME to acheive all that He wants to accomplish!

We also read this:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. (But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he [God] is excepted, which did put all things under him.) 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

This is the nature of the Messiah's Kingdom.

[iamlamad]

Just now, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

Sorry, but those are the wrong reasons for His comings.

His first coming was to come as the Suffering and Dying Messiah, haMashiyach Ben Yosef = the Messiah Son of Joseph (as in the Genesis "Joseph").

His second coming is to come as the Victorious and Reigning Messiah, haMashiyach Ben Daviyd = the Messiah Son of David.

You've added a "coming" that doesn't exist! The "seven-year period," a.k.a. the "seventieth Week of Daniel 9," does not exist for that purpose. Both of your last two "comings" are really just one. They happen successively!

Again, John 14:1-3 doesn't say that He's coming back to take us anywhere! Look at it again, CAREFULLY:

John 14:1-3 (KJV)

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

What Yeshua` said was that He would come again, and receive His disciples to Himself, He does NOT say that they (we) are all going back to where He just came from! Instead, He told them that they would be with Him from that point on, WHEREVER He will be! HE'S JUST GOT BACK TO EARTH, and THIS TIME, He's going to be the Victorious and Reigning Messiah! Now, where would He reign if not from Jerusalem, Israel?! Who would He reign over first if not the children of Israel?! Who of the children of Israel would He reign over first if not the children of Yhudah ("Judah"), the Jews?!

The homes that He has prepared for us are in the New Jerusalem that descends to the New Earth (which is a re-making of this current Earth), as revealed to us in Revelation 21:1-22:5! Look at the first few verses:

Revelaton 21:1-4 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven (sky, atmosphere) and a new earth (ground, land): for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (out of the sky, i.e., LANDING), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle (tent) of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

THAT is when our new homes are DELIVERED TO US!

In the meantime, after the Messiah returns and before the New Earth is formed, we will be in the Messiah's Kingdom, "ruling and reigning with Him!"

Revelation 20:4-6 (KJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ (the Messiah) a thousand years. 5 (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ (the Messiah), and shall reign with him (the Messiah) a thousand years.

To understand this Millennial Reign of the Messiah, one must turn to the Messiah's parables about the future Kingdom:

Matthew 13:31-32 (KJV)

31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,

"The kingdom of heaven (the Kingdom from the sky) is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: 
32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof."

This is talking about the GROWTH of that Kingdom! It doesn't start out, "BANG!" a FULL-GROWN Kingdom that governs the whole earth, immediately when the Messiah returns! It takes TIME to grow, hence the need for a THOUSAND YEARS! It's reminiscent of Nebuchadnezzar's vision:

Daniel 2:31-35, 44-45 (KJV)

31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible. 32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, 33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. 34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

...

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. 45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Thus, the Kingdom from the God of the skies (Hebrew: haashaamayim) is represented by "the stone that was cut out of the mountain without hands," and it shall become "a great mountain, and filled the whole earth." This, too, apparently will take time to accomplish.

We also read the parable of the leaven, although this is more about the Kingdom's INFLUENCE over the world, rather than its size:

Matthew 13:33 (KJV)

33 Another parable spake he unto them;

"The kingdom of heaven (The Kingdom from the sky)  is like unto leaven (a leavening agent, like yeast), which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened."

We're not told what the three measures of meal represent, but it is simply a LOT of flour!

The bottom line is this: His Kingdom will TAKE TIME to acheive all that He wants to accomplish!

We also read this:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. (But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he [God] is excepted, which did put all things under him.) 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

This is the nature of the Messiah's Kingdom.

You've added a "coming" that doesn't exist!   On the Contrary, you have MISSED a coming.

1 Thes. 4  ¹⁵ For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Your theory fails at the get-go. You have tried to force TWO more comings into one. It won't work. 

"That where I am..." OK, where AM Jesus in the first part of Rev. 19? Answer: He is in heaven.  Where is He in chapter 18, and 17, and 16, and 15, and 14, etc? Of course, still in heaven. I will take John at His word, rather than your words.   Again, so much for your theory. 

Edited February 14, 2019 by iamlamad

[OldCoot]

6 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

I'll answer any questions.   But lets not forget that this thread is about the logicity or il-logicity  of pre-trib.   I assume you are referring to the purpose of the GT.

And I gave a recent very clear example of how I see a pre Time of Jacobs Trouble / 70th week of Daniel / Tribulation period removal of the righteous.  So I didn't forget the focus of the thread.  

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You've added a "coming" that doesn't exist!   On the Contrary, you have MISSED a coming.

1 Thes. 4  ¹⁵ For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Your theory fails at the get-go. You have tried to force TWO more comings into one. It won't work. 

Shalom, iamlamad.

No, again, you've misintepreted 1 Thessalonians 4 in the same way you misinterpreted John 14! You've made an assumption and ADDED words in 1 Thessalonians 4 that aren't there!

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It's a common assumption, but again, this passage NEVER SAYS WHERE WE WILL BE GOING AND BE "WITH THE LORD!" It's the pretribber's ASSUMPTION that we "go to Heaven" with Him! By throwing these words into the 17th verse, even if only implied in a person's mind, you've GUIDED the verse your way! Because the pretrib theology says this verse means "we go to Heaven with the Messiah Yeshua` who goes back to Heaven," you've technically added these words that AREN'T THERE in reality!

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

"That where I am..." OK, where AM Jesus in the first part of Rev. 19? Answer: He is in heaven.  Where is He in chapter 18, and 17, and 16, and 15, and 14, etc? Of course, still in heaven. I will take John at His word, rather than your words.   Again, so much for your theory. 

Going back to John 14, "where AM Jesus?" (Great English. Oh, well.) Technically, He was RIGHT THERE IN JERUSALEM, ISRAEL, with His disciples, when He said these words! And, when we stick to the wording of John 14:3, He has just returned to Earth.

3 And if I go (YOU SAY, "to heaven") and prepare a place for you, I will come again (YOU SAY, "to earth," even if only "in the air"), and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

So, where does the "AM" belong? Not "heaven," but "EARTH!" And, why would you go to the book of Revelation in an attempt to prove your point in John?!

First, because your theology says that Revelation 19 and John 14:3 (the "I will come again" part) are synonymous, you have once again ASSUMED a fact that isn't there!

Second, because your interpretation (which stems from your theology) equates these two, and your interpretation of John 14:3 is in question, it is circular reasoning to use Revelation 19 in an attempt to prove your point!

Third, the tenses of the verbs in John 14:3 are ...

where I AM, = present indicative active in the first-person singular
there ye may BE also = present subjunctive active in the second-person plural.

Thus, when translated into English, the subjunctive (conjunctive) mood is the recipient verb of the subordinate "that" clause. "That ye also may be where I am." The more logical location of "where I am," then, would be where He will be when He "will come again."

[OldCoot]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

His first coming was to come as the Suffering and Dying Messiah, haMashiyach Ben Yosef = the Messiah Son of Joseph (as in the Genesis "Joseph").

His second coming is to come as the Victorious and Reigning Messiah, haMashiyach Ben Daviyd = the Messiah Son of David.

You are indeed correct!  But, one key note about that.  At both of these comings, He actually comes to the surface of the earth. 

At the removal of the righteous, as Paul clearly stated, He doesn't come to the surface but the righteous are gathered to Him via the harpazo or forcibly snatching away.  And therein is where folks get things confused and think that the righteous must go thru the time of Jacob's trouble.  Especially so those who fall into the post trib camp.

Just like in the ancient Hebrew betrothal and marriage that Yeshua was fond of alluding to.  When the groom coms for his bride, He does not enter the house like He did when the betrothal agreement was sealed, but instead she comes out to him and they both return to his fathers house to enter the Chupah (wedding chamber) for 7 days to consummate the marriage.  And this is followed by the wedding feast when both the groom and the bride emerge as one.

It is also seen in the festivals and Isaiah hit on this one.  At Yom Teruah, the gates are opened and the righteous enter.  There are 7 days (one week... Oh I hear the Gabriel's words to Daniel as I write this) between the two days of Yom Teruah (Tishri 1&2) and the day of Atonement, Yom Kippur (Tishri 10).  At Yom Kippur, the gates are closed and those not righteous are sealed for destruction. Some of this is comes from Hebrew eschatology but is not in conflict with scripture.

And the culmination of these two festivals / rehearsals in Leviticus 23 are next on the agenda for the Messiah.  He most definitely fulfilled the spring feasts at His first coming.   That is why in Leviticus 23, the feasts are called Miqra, or rehearsals.   Obviously, rehearsals of the comings of the Messiah.

Edited February 14, 2019 by OldCoot

[Retrobyter]

1 minute ago, OldCoot said:

You are indeed correct!  But, one key note about that.  At both of these comings, He actually comes to the surface of the earth. 

At the removal of the righteous, He doesn't come to the surface but the righteous are gathered to Him via the harpazo or forcibly snatching away.  And therein is where folks get things confused and think that the righteous must go thru the time of Jacob's trouble.

Just like in the ancient Hebrew betrothal and marriage.  When the groom comes for his bride, He does not enter the house like He did when the betrothal agreement was sealed, but instead she comes out to him and they both return to his fathers house to enter the Chupah (wedding chamber) for 7 days to consummate the marriage.  And this is followed by the wedding feast.

It is also seen in the festivals.  At Yom Teruah, the gates are opened and the righteous enter.  There are 7 days (one week... Oh I hear Daniel's words as I write this) between the two days of Yom Teruah and the day of Atonement, Yom Kippur.  At Yom Kippur, the gates are closed and those not righteous are sealed for destruction.

And the culmination of these two festivals / rehearsals in Leviticus 23 are next on the agenda for the Messiah. 

Shalom, "Old Coot."

Ah! But, that ASSUMES that "the time of Jacob's trouble" comes AFTER the "harpazo!" What if (and it is) that the "harpazo" comes AFTER "the time of Jacob's trouble?"

And, it would be hard for the Groom to marry the Bride BEFORE she has been RESURRECTED!